• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Hypocrisy or is there a legitimate difference here?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,106
476
126
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
Ahhh...so you're one of those extremist hardcore righties, I should've known. Please stop with the crazy stuff, you make us normal right wingers look bad.

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: JD50
Oops, wait a minute, they were kidnapping people, kinda throws your whole argument out the window doesn't it?
QFT!

How can someone not be thrilled that the terrorists were taken down while saving 50 women and children in the process? What does party affiliation have to do with this!?

I'm just glad the Pak's finally stepped up and took on the terrorists! Hopefully it's a sign of good things to come throughout their nation!

That said, the two incidents linked in the OP are entirely unrelated. The only thing the two incidents have in common is that both compounds contained religious wackjobs - but that's where the similarities end.

/thread
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
Ahhh...so you're one of those extremist hardcore righties, I should've known. Please stop with the crazy stuff, you make us normal right wingers look bad.
This is one of the few issues I'm extremely to the right on. I believe in unrestricted arms proliferation (in America.) I think it's a clear right, and that infringements on that right are unconstitutional. Those that infringe are criminals, and good riddance to the ones that caught a small fast one to a vital organ.

I'm not saying the Brand Dividians were angels, but the ATF and FBI did a lot worse stuff at Mt. Carmel than the Davidians ever dreamed of.
 

Bumrush99

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2004
3,334
194
106
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
The only people who cheer for the death of federal agents are the far left and far right crackpots.

And interestingly both sets of crackpots cheer for the same reason. They see federal agents as impugning on their rights.
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
I must be a crackpot for thinking the government has every FUCKING right to monitor fringe groups that are in the process of stockpiling weapons on a suicidal mission to deliver the apocalypse they are dreaming about. I must be a crackpot for thinking the federal government has the RIGHT, no I mean the DUTY to protect children from being sexually assualted by an ego maniacial fuckface like Koresh, who uses the bible, much like Islamic extremist use the Koran, to strengthen his grasp on feeble minded individuals that are part of his cult. That SOB burning in hell right now was sleeping with 12 year old girls claiming God allowed him to.. Any guy that can get married men to give up their wives so someone else can fuck them is pretty twisted and powerful individual.
Now while it seems the federal government took the wrong approach towards apprehending Koresh, to suddenly wish that more agents deserved to die makes you the fucking Jackbooted thug..
 

Bumrush99

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2004
3,334
194
106
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
Ahhh...so you're one of those extremist hardcore righties, I should've known. Please stop with the crazy stuff, you make us normal right wingers look bad.
This is one of the few issues I'm extremely to the right on. I believe in unrestricted arms proliferation (in America.) I think it's a clear right, and that infringements on that right are unconstitutional. Those that infringe are criminals, and good riddance to the ones that caught a small fast one to a vital organ.

I'm not saying the Brand Dividians were angels, but the ATF and FBI did a lot worse stuff at Mt. Carmel than the Davidians ever dreamed of.
Oh really? So Muslim citizens, White Power anti- government militias and other fringe groups should have unrestricted arms proliferation? So if a local Mosque with extremist ideology decided to stockpile weapons, you would have no problem, right? And if a federal agent caught one in a "vital organ" investigating this mosque you would say good riddance? I mean thats what unrestricted arms proliferation is, right? What if they wanted to stockpile RPG's, suitcase nukes and other arms? No problem right?
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,106
476
126
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
Ahhh...so you're one of those extremist hardcore righties, I should've known. Please stop with the crazy stuff, you make us normal right wingers look bad.
This is one of the few issues I'm extremely to the right on. I believe in unrestricted arms proliferation (in America.) I think it's a clear right, and that infringements on that right are unconstitutional. Those that infringe are criminals, and good riddance to the ones that caught a small fast one to a vital organ.

I'm not saying the Brand Dividians were angels, but the ATF and FBI did a lot worse stuff at Mt. Carmel than the Davidians ever dreamed of.

Well thats fine and I respect your right to think that, I am a very big proponent of the 2nd amendment myself, but I still think its sick to wish for the deaths of ATF agents. If you dont agree with the laws then fine, take issue with those that made the laws and those that have the power to change them, not the ones that are enforcing the laws. When you are in law enforcement you don't get to pick and choose the laws that you want to enforce.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
Ahhh...so you're one of those extremist hardcore righties, I should've known. Please stop with the crazy stuff, you make us normal right wingers look bad.
This is one of the few issues I'm extremely to the right on. I believe in unrestricted arms proliferation (in America.) I think it's a clear right, and that infringements on that right are unconstitutional. Those that infringe are criminals, and good riddance to the ones that caught a small fast one to a vital organ.

I'm not saying the Brand Dividians were angels, but the ATF and FBI did a lot worse stuff at Mt. Carmel than the Davidians ever dreamed of.
Oh really? So Muslim citizens, White Power anti- government militias and other fringe groups should have unrestricted arms proliferation? So if a local Mosque with extremist ideology decided to stockpile weapons, you would have no problem, right? And if a federal agent caught one in a "vital organ" investigating this mosque you would say good riddance? I mean thats what unrestricted arms proliferation is, right? What if they wanted to stockpile RPG's, suitcase nukes and other arms? No problem right?
To think that those who would do evil can be prevented from aquiring such weapons is foolish.

I don't have a problem with anyone having whatever weapons they feel necessary. I feel that it is a great injustice that so called "Free men" who have been convicted of a felony in the past are forbidden from purchasing firearms. Doesn't sound so "free" to me.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
Ahhh...so you're one of those extremist hardcore righties, I should've known. Please stop with the crazy stuff, you make us normal right wingers look bad.
This is one of the few issues I'm extremely to the right on. I believe in unrestricted arms proliferation (in America.) I think it's a clear right, and that infringements on that right are unconstitutional. Those that infringe are criminals, and good riddance to the ones that caught a small fast one to a vital organ.

I'm not saying the Brand Dividians were angels, but the ATF and FBI did a lot worse stuff at Mt. Carmel than the Davidians ever dreamed of.
Oh really? So Muslim citizens, White Power anti- government militias and other fringe groups should have unrestricted arms proliferation? So if a local Mosque with extremist ideology decided to stockpile weapons, you would have no problem, right? And if a federal agent caught one in a "vital organ" investigating this mosque you would say good riddance? I mean thats what unrestricted arms proliferation is, right? What if they wanted to stockpile RPG's, suitcase nukes and other arms? No problem right?
To think that those who would do evil can be prevented from aquiring such weapons is foolish.

I don't have a problem with anyone having whatever weapons they feel necessary. I feel that it is a great injustice that so called "Free men" who have been convicted of a felony in the past are forbidden from purchasing firearms. Doesn't sound so "free" to me.
uhh, they should think about that before committing a crime and becoming felons. That is one of the only gun-owning restrictions that I happen to agree with.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
Ahhh...so you're one of those extremist hardcore righties, I should've known. Please stop with the crazy stuff, you make us normal right wingers look bad.
This is one of the few issues I'm extremely to the right on. I believe in unrestricted arms proliferation (in America.) I think it's a clear right, and that infringements on that right are unconstitutional. Those that infringe are criminals, and good riddance to the ones that caught a small fast one to a vital organ.

I'm not saying the Brand Dividians were angels, but the ATF and FBI did a lot worse stuff at Mt. Carmel than the Davidians ever dreamed of.
Oh really? So Muslim citizens, White Power anti- government militias and other fringe groups should have unrestricted arms proliferation? So if a local Mosque with extremist ideology decided to stockpile weapons, you would have no problem, right? And if a federal agent caught one in a "vital organ" investigating this mosque you would say good riddance? I mean thats what unrestricted arms proliferation is, right? What if they wanted to stockpile RPG's, suitcase nukes and other arms? No problem right?
To think that those who would do evil can be prevented from aquiring such weapons is foolish.

I don't have a problem with anyone having whatever weapons they feel necessary. I feel that it is a great injustice that so called "Free men" who have been convicted of a felony in the past are forbidden from purchasing firearms. Doesn't sound so "free" to me.
uhh, they should think about that before committing a crime and becoming felons. That is one of the only gun-owning restrictions that I happen to agree with.
I think that if you don't trust someone to own a gun, you should keep them locked up. You'll let them own a car, but not a gun?
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,106
476
126
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
Ahhh...so you're one of those extremist hardcore righties, I should've known. Please stop with the crazy stuff, you make us normal right wingers look bad.
This is one of the few issues I'm extremely to the right on. I believe in unrestricted arms proliferation (in America.) I think it's a clear right, and that infringements on that right are unconstitutional. Those that infringe are criminals, and good riddance to the ones that caught a small fast one to a vital organ.

I'm not saying the Brand Dividians were angels, but the ATF and FBI did a lot worse stuff at Mt. Carmel than the Davidians ever dreamed of.
Oh really? So Muslim citizens, White Power anti- government militias and other fringe groups should have unrestricted arms proliferation? So if a local Mosque with extremist ideology decided to stockpile weapons, you would have no problem, right? And if a federal agent caught one in a "vital organ" investigating this mosque you would say good riddance? I mean thats what unrestricted arms proliferation is, right? What if they wanted to stockpile RPG's, suitcase nukes and other arms? No problem right?
To think that those who would do evil can be prevented from aquiring such weapons is foolish.

I don't have a problem with anyone having whatever weapons they feel necessary. I feel that it is a great injustice that so called "Free men" who have been convicted of a felony in the past are forbidden from purchasing firearms. Doesn't sound so "free" to me.
uhh, they should think about that before committing a crime and becoming felons. That is one of the only gun-owning restrictions that I happen to agree with.
I agree with that as well, but I think that it should only pertain to the violent felonies.

 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I'd say that those Mexicans aren't Americans, and don't enjoy the same protections that we should.

These federal agents willingly joined an agency more or less dedicated to depriving Americans of their rights. Beyond that, they willlingly joined the tactical team so that they could first hand kill some freedom loving Americans. Jack Booted Thugs, at the bottom of the chain of command, or at the top, are all just as guilty.
Ahhh...so you're one of those extremist hardcore righties, I should've known. Please stop with the crazy stuff, you make us normal right wingers look bad.
This is one of the few issues I'm extremely to the right on. I believe in unrestricted arms proliferation (in America.) I think it's a clear right, and that infringements on that right are unconstitutional. Those that infringe are criminals, and good riddance to the ones that caught a small fast one to a vital organ.

I'm not saying the Brand Dividians were angels, but the ATF and FBI did a lot worse stuff at Mt. Carmel than the Davidians ever dreamed of.
Oh really? So Muslim citizens, White Power anti- government militias and other fringe groups should have unrestricted arms proliferation? So if a local Mosque with extremist ideology decided to stockpile weapons, you would have no problem, right? And if a federal agent caught one in a "vital organ" investigating this mosque you would say good riddance? I mean thats what unrestricted arms proliferation is, right? What if they wanted to stockpile RPG's, suitcase nukes and other arms? No problem right?
To think that those who would do evil can be prevented from aquiring such weapons is foolish.

I don't have a problem with anyone having whatever weapons they feel necessary. I feel that it is a great injustice that so called "Free men" who have been convicted of a felony in the past are forbidden from purchasing firearms. Doesn't sound so "free" to me.
uhh, they should think about that before committing a crime and becoming felons. That is one of the only gun-owning restrictions that I happen to agree with.
I think that if you don't trust someone to own a gun, you should keep them locked up. You'll let them own a car, but not a gun?
cars are not designed or meant to be used for the sole purpose of killing someone or something.

Trust me, I have no problem whatsoever with any other gun-ownership issue; but felons lose that right when they commit a felony. It's one of the prices they deserve to pay for the rest of their lives (heck, if I had my way, I'd put most felons in the ground with a gun! I have no sympathy for felonious criminals... none).

I suggest that they get really good with a compound bow... ;)
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Why aren't you calling out liberals for the exact opposite reactions to both cases?
Because liberls don't get worked up over such cases. Only conservatives do. If this isn't true, prove it. Otherwise, try to defend yourself rather than point fingers.
Liberals don't get worked up? In case you might have forgotten, liberals were in charge of Waco. But I guess you don't consider storming a compound with tanks "getting worked up".

BTW, I believe that you began the finger pointing with your OP.
I meant liberals as in constituents, not government workers. As blackangst's post clearly mentions, the raid on the compound was commenced by the Bush Administration, a conservative bastion. But I'll let you continue the finger pointing since you don't see the hypocrisy in your own post.
WHISKEY

TANGO

FOXTROT

Congratulations. You have just entered the Dave zone.

Waco started On February 28, 1993. Who was president then? Hmmm?

You and Dave will make good posting buddies.
Oops, I meant planned. I guess you got me on semantics. Guilty as charged. I think it's flimsy of you to get overtly emotional over an ommision of a single word, don't you? Care to get back on topic?

Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Why aren't you calling out liberals for the exact opposite reactions to both cases?
Because liberls don't get worked up over such cases. Only conservatives do. If this isn't true, prove it. Otherwise, try to defend yourself rather than point fingers.
Liberals don't get worked up? In case you might have forgotten, liberals were in charge of Waco. But I guess you don't consider storming a compound with tanks "getting worked up".

BTW, I believe that you began the finger pointing with your OP.
I meant liberals as in constituents, not government workers. As blackangst's post clearly mentions, the raid on the compound was commenced by the Bush Administration, a conservative bastion. But I'll let you continue the finger pointing since you don't see the hypocrisy in your own post.
So you can't see your own finger pointing? Did you even read the article about the Mosque, you know, the whole kidnapping thing?

I guess in your world your a hypocrite for anything, the two different stories both have completely different circumstances. Thats like saying that you are a hypocrite if you believe in capital punishment for murderers, but not for every other crime.

Anyways, I'll give ya a 5/10 on this one since I bit.
I'm inferring from you that the Branch Davidians were good christians minding their business when the evil liberal government barged in and burned them to death? And in the case of the muslims, they were evil terrorists that the good government of pakistan stopped from creating further harm?

Well, I can see that your automatic labelling machine has gone into action and you are viewing the events as very different. Well, I can see where you stand despite the fact that you said you were against both:roll:.

There is quite a difference in the underlying circumstances between the two incidents. The Waco incident never had to happen. They wanted to get koresh on weapons charges. Koresh frequented the local town a few times a week. He could have been picked up at any time outside the compound.

The govt went headlong into an ambush that utlimately lead to the deaths of several agents and many Branch Davidians. I think the govt and the Bush\Clinton administrations wanted to make an example of these fringe groups. Remember Ruby Ridge? I think the casualties and the end result put a clamp down on military style assaults on groups of people within our society by our govt. So their deaths werent in vain.

These guys in a mosque in Pakistan had an open agenda to kidnap people. For the most part the Branch Davidians kept to themselves.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
If nothing else, one has to link both Ruby Ridge and Waco to law enforcement over reaction. And for that matter, both incidents inspired Tim McVeigh's bombing of Federal Courthouse. And sadly, the American people were never informed of what was really going on. But this is somewhat the version I have heard and seems supported by the facts.

The same cowboy law enforcement that infected the relatively few agents involved in Ruby Ridge had pretty well infected all of ATF. And the Alcohol Tobacco and firearms initials pretty well summed up the mission, and there was serious talk about merging the into the FBI. And since busting moonshine stills was somewhat a vanishing need, tobacco was not as politically incorrect as it is now, the main agency mission by insiders was seen as gun control. Which given the NRA, was none too popular either. But to prevent being submerged into the FBI, the ATF needed some good positive publicity. And then they got wind of the Branch Dividians as an answer to that prayer. But ATF did put a agent inside and they learned that they were armed to the teeth with LEGAL WEAPONS. And the rub being semiautomatic equal legal and fully automatic is illegal. And the version I heard was that Korsesh, if nothing else, was acquiring these guns as an investment. And also using Dividian labor to somewhat customize and sporterise to increase resale value. And had ordered some parts---and somehow someone at the ATF mis-copied a few part numbers and suddenly thought Korsesh was ordering illegal parts that would make the guns fully automatic. That and the fact that Korsesh was an accused child molester made ole Dave the guy people would love to hate. But one more deception remained---the ATF could borrow all sorts of army equipment but only if drugs were involved---so they phonied up an affidavit that some of the Davidians were using drugs. But had one snag. The Texas child welfare authorities, the people with the jurisdiction would not act on what they had. And child molesting is not a Federal beef. But guns sure were.

Now anyone with a lick of sense would know that with cults like this, you bust the leader and the rest collapses into nothing. And Korsesh was known to jog up and down the streets of Waco on a daily basis. And with no armed guards. So it would have been child play to arrest Korsesh while jogging, toss him in jail using the warrant they already had, and everything would have sorted itself out in court.

But No NO NO. The ATF needed big splashy publicity. And with little advance planning the ATF swooped down. Their local intel was so poor they didn't even know where Mt Carmel was. And once they came into Waco with their army vehicles, they split forces. One part was dispatched to alert local media so the television footage would be there for the national media. And the other proceeded to MT. Carmel and asking directions from a helpful local mailman. And the mailman was a branch davidian who scurried to warn the Davidians. And after being delayed by getting the local media, the ATF arrived. And instead of just serving the warrant peacefully, the ATF provoked the fight expecting to swiftly overwhelm the shocked Davidians, and instead the ATF ended up being on the wrong end of well dug in defenders.

After that, the authorities could not let the truth emerge. And Korsesh didn't help matters either. And it ended with a Oh What A Cookout. But the investigation was a white wash.
It certainly could have been handled differently. And the big dividian front door is missing from what I hear. It could have answered the question of who fired first and from which side of the door. And if you listen to the counterfire from the davidians, it does not take a trained ear to know one is hearing semiautomatic legal weapons.

But its all cleaned by fire now---and the truth---burned with it--and who know if what I have is true or not---its somewhat testable even at this date---but its apparent that the priority is burying and not finding the truth.
I agree with this post 110%

:p

One thing about the guns, i think the fact these people had the ability to defend themselves from the Govt really helped to put the clamp on the law agencies ability to perform these military style raids.

I also read the warrant they got for the weapons was very weak.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
Originally posted by: Gaard
What makes a warrant weak?
I thing what was meant buy a weak warrant is in the fact that the warrant's basis would more or less collapse in court. And any evidence thus obtained would be thrown out court. As any defense attorney worth a hill of beans would have looked into the means and lies told to get the warrant. And then it would have backfired big time on the ATF as they are exposed as sloppy liars.

But the fact that the whole thing was resolved by violence allows this whole weak warrant issue to fly away unexamined.

But there also seems to be another myth running on this thread. And that is that government authoritarians deliberately set about to crack down on dissident elements in society. Which I do not believe is the case at all. Because there is always a running and open battle to keep the authoritarians somewhat contained. And as soon as the authoritarian types get the chance, they emerge from their fruit loop bowl and with the best of intentions seek a chance to confront social dissidence with the almighty power of government. And with visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads they swoop down to teach those miscreants a lesson. As they see nothing but public adulation and glory coming their way. While they are simply blind to the fact that even miscreants have rights and they too have human failings they are certain to expose.

And such a mindset is always a train wreck waiting to happen. And they always find a ruby ridge or a waco to totally screw up on. Even when the cover up succeeds, wiser people in government still learn the lesson. And redouble their efforts to keep these cowboy types safely contained. And now we outsource these types to Abu Ghrab and the larger world.

And when wiser people in government quit learning their lesson or cease caring, you wind up with a police state. But in the case of confrontation ala the waco variety, the tree of sanity is always nourished by the blood of hapless victims. And the more blood the better the lesson is learned. And we always hope enough people say---oops---we went too far.


 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,623
1,109
126
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
The only people who cheer for the death of federal agents are the far left and far right crackpots.

And interestingly both sets of crackpots cheer for the same reason. They see federal agents as impugning on their rights.
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
Wow man, thats some pretty fucked up stuff to say. If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at those in charge, not the individual agents just executing a warrant. Keep in mind that I do not agree with what happened at Waco at all.
JD50 FTW! Those ATF agents were doing their job, and it's the fault of the Justice Dept, and those in charge, not the men who simply did what they were told to do. Like JD50, I totally disagree with every aspect of how the Waco situation unfolded, but to celebrate those men's deaths is really sad.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
The only people who cheer for the death of federal agents are the far left and far right crackpots.

And interestingly both sets of crackpots cheer for the same reason. They see federal agents as impugning on their rights.
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
Wow man, thats some pretty fucked up stuff to say. If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at those in charge, not the individual agents just executing a warrant. Keep in mind that I do not agree with what happened at Waco at all.
JD50 FTW! Those ATF agents were doing their job, and it's the fault of the Justice Dept, and those in charge, not the men who simply did what they were told to do. Like JD50, I totally disagree with every aspect of how the Waco situation unfolded, but to celebrate those men's deaths is really sad.
Spoken like someone who never waited a 8 months for a Form 4 to clear under the Clinton ATF. :roll:
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,106
476
126
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
The only people who cheer for the death of federal agents are the far left and far right crackpots.

And interestingly both sets of crackpots cheer for the same reason. They see federal agents as impugning on their rights.
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
Wow man, thats some pretty fucked up stuff to say. If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at those in charge, not the individual agents just executing a warrant. Keep in mind that I do not agree with what happened at Waco at all.
JD50 FTW! Those ATF agents were doing their job, and it's the fault of the Justice Dept, and those in charge, not the men who simply did what they were told to do. Like JD50, I totally disagree with every aspect of how the Waco situation unfolded, but to celebrate those men's deaths is really sad.
Spoken like someone who never waited a 8 months for a Form 4 to clear under the Clinton ATF. :roll:
Well thats definitely justification for wishing for the deaths of as many ATF agents as possible....:roll:

Thats like getting pissed at the cop that pulled you over because you think that the speed limit is too low, like he had anything to do with making the law....In other words, do you really think that the ATF agent processing your form, or the agent storming the compound in Waco, had anything to do the creation of the law or warrant?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,623
1,109
126
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
The only people who cheer for the death of federal agents are the far left and far right crackpots.

And interestingly both sets of crackpots cheer for the same reason. They see federal agents as impugning on their rights.
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
Wow man, thats some pretty fucked up stuff to say. If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at those in charge, not the individual agents just executing a warrant. Keep in mind that I do not agree with what happened at Waco at all.
JD50 FTW! Those ATF agents were doing their job, and it's the fault of the Justice Dept, and those in charge, not the men who simply did what they were told to do. Like JD50, I totally disagree with every aspect of how the Waco situation unfolded, but to celebrate those men's deaths is really sad.
Spoken like someone who never waited a 8 months for a Form 4 to clear under the Clinton ATF. :roll:
Ok, so you place the blame on the ATF agents themselves for both the tragedy at Waco as well as the '8 months for a Form 4 to clear'?

I'm sorry, but that's like blaming the mailman for the price of your postage. The decision simply did not lie with those men who died. They were just following their orders, and if they did not, someone else would have done the job outlined. The only thing that could have changed what happened is (A)- the Justice Department had done their job in a more sane manner, or (B)- the architects of that confrontation had decided to arrest Koresh on one of his trips to town, followed by a controlled search of the premises for contraband.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
The only people who cheer for the death of federal agents are the far left and far right crackpots.

And interestingly both sets of crackpots cheer for the same reason. They see federal agents as impugning on their rights.
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
Wow man, thats some pretty fucked up stuff to say. If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at those in charge, not the individual agents just executing a warrant. Keep in mind that I do not agree with what happened at Waco at all.
JD50 FTW! Those ATF agents were doing their job, and it's the fault of the Justice Dept, and those in charge, not the men who simply did what they were told to do. Like JD50, I totally disagree with every aspect of how the Waco situation unfolded, but to celebrate those men's deaths is really sad.
Spoken like someone who never waited a 8 months for a Form 4 to clear under the Clinton ATF. :roll:
Well thats definitely justification for wishing for the deaths of as many ATF agents as possible....:roll:

Thats like getting pissed at the cop that pulled you over because you think that the speed limit is too low, like he had anything to do with making the law....In other words, do you really think that the ATF agent processing your form, or the agent storming the compound in Waco, had anything to do the creation of the law or warrant?
Anyone who chooses to enforce unjust laws are just as guilty.

You'll never find me shedding a tear for a lawman dying in pursuit of a speeder. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a situation in which I'd shed a tear for a lawman. I'm so far to the right, I'm nearly an anarchist.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
Again the myths hatch like flies. These incidents don't start because the guys at the top are corrupt or lacking in judgment, they always start at the middle when some idiot in charge loses total sight of the job they have to do. In the case of Ruby Ridge it started with Federal agents trespassing and then shooting the Weaver dog for the sin of barking at them. In the case of Waco, it started when the mission became publicity instead of a quiet arrest. And in both cases you had personnel in middle management charge who believed the ends justified any means. Those two failing are a deadly combination and any small mistake can then cascade out of control.

And once some middle level idiot creates some huge stink, then its the job of the guys on top to cover things up. And keep the general public in the dark about the fact they were the ones who failed to see these middle level jerks should have never been let out of a janitors broom closet, much less put in charge of an operation in the field.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY