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Hypocrisy or is there a legitimate difference here?

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Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,293
0
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Why aren't you calling out liberals for the exact opposite reactions to both cases?
Because liberls don't get worked up over such cases. Only conservatives do. If this isn't true, prove it. Otherwise, try to defend yourself rather than point fingers.
Liberals don't get worked up? In case you might have forgotten, liberals were in charge of Waco. But I guess you don't consider storming a compound with tanks "getting worked up".

BTW, I believe that you began the finger pointing with your OP.
I meant liberals as in constituents, not government workers. As blackangst's post clearly mentions, the raid on the compound was commenced by the Bush Administration, a conservative bastion. But I'll let you continue the finger pointing since you don't see the hypocrisy in your own post.
WHISKEY

TANGO

FOXTROT

Congratulations. You have just entered the Dave zone.

Waco started On February 28, 1993. Who was president then? Hmmm?

You and Dave will make good posting buddies.
Oops, I meant planned. I guess you got me on semantics. Guilty as charged. I think it's flimsy of you to get overtly emotional over an ommision of a single word, don't you? Care to get back on topic?

Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Why aren't you calling out liberals for the exact opposite reactions to both cases?
Because liberls don't get worked up over such cases. Only conservatives do. If this isn't true, prove it. Otherwise, try to defend yourself rather than point fingers.
Liberals don't get worked up? In case you might have forgotten, liberals were in charge of Waco. But I guess you don't consider storming a compound with tanks "getting worked up".

BTW, I believe that you began the finger pointing with your OP.
I meant liberals as in constituents, not government workers. As blackangst's post clearly mentions, the raid on the compound was commenced by the Bush Administration, a conservative bastion. But I'll let you continue the finger pointing since you don't see the hypocrisy in your own post.
So you can't see your own finger pointing? Did you even read the article about the Mosque, you know, the whole kidnapping thing?

I guess in your world your a hypocrite for anything, the two different stories both have completely different circumstances. Thats like saying that you are a hypocrite if you believe in capital punishment for murderers, but not for every other crime.

Anyways, I'll give ya a 5/10 on this one since I bit.
I'm inferring from you that the Branch Davidians were good christians minding their business when the evil liberal government barged in and burned them to death? And in the case of the muslims, they were evil terrorists that the good government of pakistan stopped from creating further harm?

Well, I can see that your automatic labelling machine has gone into action and you are viewing the events as very different. Well, I can see where you stand despite the fact that you said you were against both:roll:.
How many Chinese workers did the Branch Dividians kidnap? How many Police Officers did the Branch dividians kidnap? How many people did the Branch Dividians kidnap that they "considered to be involved in immoral, un-christian activities"?

Nice job ignoring the rest of my points by the way.
So you are saying that the US Government's action was not justified while teh Pakistani's was? Is that what you're saying? We need a place to start. Yes or No?
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
1
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No difference

A slaughter is a slaughter
What I thought as well. No doubt the Islamophobes in America were thankful of the outcome in Pakistan. I wonder I they would've felt if Bill Clinton told the Branch Davidians: "Surrender or die".
What department was responsible for the massacre at Waco? Thats right. ATF and FBI. Who is ultimately responsible for these depatments? That's right. POTUS.

Unless, of course, you belive Clinton was never briefed nor asked for direction in the matter.
Trying to smear Hillary via backdoor eh?

huh? It was a direct response to a direct question you dolt.
This sounds like a flame post.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,104
472
126
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Why aren't you calling out liberals for the exact opposite reactions to both cases?
Because liberls don't get worked up over such cases. Only conservatives do. If this isn't true, prove it. Otherwise, try to defend yourself rather than point fingers.
Liberals don't get worked up? In case you might have forgotten, liberals were in charge of Waco. But I guess you don't consider storming a compound with tanks "getting worked up".

BTW, I believe that you began the finger pointing with your OP.
I meant liberals as in constituents, not government workers. As blackangst's post clearly mentions, the raid on the compound was commenced by the Bush Administration, a conservative bastion. But I'll let you continue the finger pointing since you don't see the hypocrisy in your own post.
WHISKEY

TANGO

FOXTROT

Congratulations. You have just entered the Dave zone.

Waco started On February 28, 1993. Who was president then? Hmmm?

You and Dave will make good posting buddies.
Oops, I meant planned. I guess you got me on semantics. Guilty as charged. I think it's flimsy of you to get overtly emotional over an ommision of a single word, don't you? Care to get back on topic?

Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Why aren't you calling out liberals for the exact opposite reactions to both cases?
Because liberls don't get worked up over such cases. Only conservatives do. If this isn't true, prove it. Otherwise, try to defend yourself rather than point fingers.
Liberals don't get worked up? In case you might have forgotten, liberals were in charge of Waco. But I guess you don't consider storming a compound with tanks "getting worked up".

BTW, I believe that you began the finger pointing with your OP.
I meant liberals as in constituents, not government workers. As blackangst's post clearly mentions, the raid on the compound was commenced by the Bush Administration, a conservative bastion. But I'll let you continue the finger pointing since you don't see the hypocrisy in your own post.
So you can't see your own finger pointing? Did you even read the article about the Mosque, you know, the whole kidnapping thing?

I guess in your world your a hypocrite for anything, the two different stories both have completely different circumstances. Thats like saying that you are a hypocrite if you believe in capital punishment for murderers, but not for every other crime.

Anyways, I'll give ya a 5/10 on this one since I bit.
I'm inferring from you that the Branch Davidians were good christians minding their business when the evil liberal government barged in and burned them to death? And in the case of the muslims, they were evil terrorists that the good government of pakistan stopped from creating further harm?

Well, I can see that your automatic labelling machine has gone into action and you are viewing the events as very different. Well, I can see where you stand despite the fact that you said you were against both:roll:.
How many Chinese workers did the Branch Dividians kidnap? How many Police Officers did the Branch dividians kidnap? How many people did the Branch Dividians kidnap that they "considered to be involved in immoral, un-christian activities"?

Nice job ignoring the rest of my points by the way.
So you are saying that the US Government's action was not justified while teh Pakistani's was? Is that what you're saying? We need a place to start. Yes or No?

How about you answer my questions? Did the Branch Dividians kidnap anyone? I was a kid when all of that went down so I never really followed it and don't know the specifics. But yes it appears that the Pakistani government was justified, these were criminals abducting people.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
4
0
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
If nothing else, one has to link both Ruby Ridge and Waco to law enforcement over reaction. And for that matter, both incidents inspired Tim McVeigh's bombing of Federal Courthouse. And sadly, the American people were never informed of what was really going on. But this is somewhat the version I have heard and seems supported by the facts.

The same cowboy law enforcement that infected the relatively few agents involved in Ruby Ridge had pretty well infected all of ATF. And the Alcohol Tobacco and firearms initials pretty well summed up the mission, and there was serious talk about merging the into the FBI. And since busting moonshine stills was somewhat a vanishing need, tobacco was not as politically incorrect as it is now, the main agency mission by insiders was seen as gun control. Which given the NRA, was none too popular either. But to prevent being submerged into the FBI, the ATF needed some good positive publicity. And then they got wind of the Branch Dividians as an answer to that prayer. But ATF did put a agent inside and they learned that they were armed to the teeth with LEGAL WEAPONS. And the rub being semiautomatic equal legal and fully automatic is illegal. And the version I heard was that Korsesh, if nothing else, was acquiring these guns as an investment. And also using Dividian labor to somewhat customize and sporterise to increase resale value. And had ordered some parts---and somehow someone at the ATF mis-copied a few part numbers and suddenly thought Korsesh was ordering illegal parts that would make the guns fully automatic. That and the fact that Korsesh was an accused child molester made ole Dave the guy people would love to hate. But one more deception remained---the ATF could borrow all sorts of army equipment but only if drugs were involved---so they phonied up an affidavit that some of the Davidians were using drugs. But had one snag. The Texas child welfare authorities, the people with the jurisdiction would not act on what they had. And child molesting is not a Federal beef. But guns sure were.

Now anyone with a lick of sense would know that with cults like this, you bust the leader and the rest collapses into nothing. And Korsesh was known to jog up and down the streets of Waco on a daily basis. And with no armed guards. So it would have been child play to arrest Korsesh while jogging, toss him in jail using the warrant they already had, and everything would have sorted itself out in court.

But No NO NO. The ATF needed big splashy publicity. And with little advance planning the ATF swooped down. Their local intel was so poor they didn't even know where Mt Carmel was. And once they came into Waco with their army vehicles, they split forces. One part was dispatched to alert local media so the television footage would be there for the national media. And the other proceeded to MT. Carmel and asking directions from a helpful local mailman. And the mailman was a branch davidian who scurried to warn the Davidians. And after being delayed by getting the local media, the ATF arrived. And instead of just serving the warrant peacefully, the ATF provoked the fight expecting to swiftly overwhelm the shocked Davidians, and instead the ATF ended up being on the wrong end of well dug in defenders.

After that, the authorities could not let the truth emerge. And Korsesh didn't help matters either. And it ended with a Oh What A Cookout. But the investigation was a white wash.
It certainly could have been handled differently. And the big dividian front door is missing from what I hear. It could have answered the question of who fired first and from which side of the door. And if you listen to the counterfire from the davidians, it does not take a trained ear to know one is hearing semiautomatic legal weapons.

But its all cleaned by fire now---and the truth---burned with it--and who know if what I have is true or not---its somewhat testable even at this date---but its apparent that the priority is burying and not finding the truth.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,829
804
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
If nothing else, one has to link both Ruby Ridge and Waco to law enforcement over reaction. And for that matter, both incidents inspired Tim McVeigh's bombing of Federal Courthouse. And sadly, the American people were never informed of what was really going on. But this is somewhat the version I have heard and seems supported by the facts.

The same cowboy law enforcement that infected the relatively few agents involved in Ruby Ridge had pretty well infected all of ATF. And the Alcohol Tobacco and firearms initials pretty well summed up the mission, and there was serious talk about merging the into the FBI. And since busting moonshine stills was somewhat a vanishing need, tobacco was not as politically incorrect as it is now, the main agency mission by insiders was seen as gun control. Which given the NRA, was none too popular either. But to prevent being submerged into the FBI, the ATF needed some good positive publicity. And then they got wind of the Branch Dividians as an answer to that prayer. But ATF did put a agent inside and they learned that they were armed to the teeth with LEGAL WEAPONS. And the rub being semiautomatic equal legal and fully automatic is illegal. And the version I heard was that Korsesh, if nothing else, was acquiring these guns as an investment. And also using Dividian labor to somewhat customize and sporterise to increase resale value. And had ordered some parts---and somehow someone at the ATF mis-copied a few part numbers and suddenly thought Korsesh was ordering illegal parts that would make the guns fully automatic. That and the fact that Korsesh was an accused child molester made ole Dave the guy people would love to hate. But one more deception remained---the ATF could borrow all sorts of army equipment but only if drugs were involved---so they phonied up an affidavit that some of the Davidians were using drugs. But had one snag. The Texas child welfare authorities, the people with the jurisdiction would not act on what they had. And child molesting is not a Federal beef. But guns sure were.

Now anyone with a lick of sense would know that with cults like this, you bust the leader and the rest collapses into nothing. And Korsesh was known to jog up and down the streets of Waco on a daily basis. And with no armed guards. So it would have been child play to arrest Korsesh while jogging, toss him in jail using the warrant they already had, and everything would have sorted itself out in court.

But No NO NO. The ATF needed big splashy publicity. And with little advance planning the ATF swooped down. Their local intel was so poor they didn't even know where Mt Carmel was. And once they came into Waco with their army vehicles, they split forces. One part was dispatched to alert local media so the television footage would be there for the national media. And the other proceeded to MT. Carmel and asking directions from a helpful local mailman. And the mailman was a branch davidian who scurried to warn the Davidians. And after being delayed by getting the local media, the ATF arrived. And instead of just serving the warrant peacefully, the ATF provoked the fight expecting to swiftly overwhelm the shocked Davidians, and instead the ATF ended up being on the wrong end of well dug in defenders.

After that, the authorities could not let the truth emerge. And Korsesh didn't help matters either. And it ended with a Oh What A Cookout. But the investigation was a white wash.
It certainly could have been handled differently. And the big dividian front door is missing from what I hear. It could have answered the question of who fired first and from which side of the door. And if you listen to the counterfire from the davidians, it does not take a trained ear to know one is hearing semiautomatic legal weapons.

But its all cleaned by fire now---and the truth---burned with it--and who know if what I have is true or not---its somewhat testable even at this date---but its apparent that the priority is burying and not finding the truth.
Thats my understanding also. Well said, Lemon.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,623
1,107
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
A 100% true ProfJohn post! :D

I hold Bush (and Janet Reno, LBJ, and Hitler) in about as much esteem as a sh*tstain on a gas station toilet seat, but I don't see any reason to criticize the conservatives over that Pakistani situation. I blame Waco on overzealous ATF and Janet Reno. I don't know of any 'liberals' who thought the standoff/siege was a good plan. It's sheer idiocy to not just pick him up on one of his town visits.

Of course, who usually defends nutjob cops when they're kicking down doors of little old ladies? Oh yeah, our friendly neighborhood right-wingers. I choose to blame the leadership and laws that enable that kind of anti-freedom BS, and that lies at the combined blame of ALL of our sh*thead politicians.
 

Bumrush99

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2004
3,334
194
106
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,623
1,107
126
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
That was a tragedy for them and their families, though I jeer at both the nutjob branch davidians that shot them, AND the crap leadership at the ATF and Justice Department that enabled that ridiculous clusterf*ck to occur in the first place.

As PJ plainly stated, Koresh was already being watched going into and out of town. He was the de facto leader of the compound. If he had been arrested in town, it would have been child's play to arrange a full search of the compound and further arrests of guilty parties.

There was NO NEED for the kind of cowboy-movie jackbooted thug tactic of kicking in doors and windows while carrying assault weapons. To do that in the face of a bunch of people who believe in the apocalypse at hand is just incredible idiocy.
 

Bumrush99

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2004
3,334
194
106
Great thread guys, I never really took the time to research the missteps the federal government took before the siege started. The ATF looked like a bunch of politicians, posturing for the cameras instead of doing taking the smart route. Incredible how many people died because of their desire to showboat in front of the media. Hopefully they learned their lesson..
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?

To a certain extent if they attacked first instead of serving the legitimate warrant---they indeed were shot dead in legitimate self defense by the branch davidians.

Something alleged but never really investigated. And something we will likely never know.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
4
0
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
The only people who cheer for the death of federal agents are the far left and far right crackpots.

And interestingly both sets of crackpots cheer for the same reason. They see federal agents as impugning on their rights.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,293
0
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Why aren't you calling out liberals for the exact opposite reactions to both cases?
Because liberls don't get worked up over such cases. Only conservatives do. If this isn't true, prove it. Otherwise, try to defend yourself rather than point fingers.
Liberals don't get worked up? In case you might have forgotten, liberals were in charge of Waco. But I guess you don't consider storming a compound with tanks "getting worked up".

BTW, I believe that you began the finger pointing with your OP.
I meant liberals as in constituents, not government workers. As blackangst's post clearly mentions, the raid on the compound was commenced by the Bush Administration, a conservative bastion. But I'll let you continue the finger pointing since you don't see the hypocrisy in your own post.
WHISKEY

TANGO

FOXTROT

Congratulations. You have just entered the Dave zone.

Waco started On February 28, 1993. Who was president then? Hmmm?

You and Dave will make good posting buddies.
Oops, I meant planned. I guess you got me on semantics. Guilty as charged. I think it's flimsy of you to get overtly emotional over an ommision of a single word, don't you? Care to get back on topic?

Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: JD50
Why aren't you calling out liberals for the exact opposite reactions to both cases?
Because liberls don't get worked up over such cases. Only conservatives do. If this isn't true, prove it. Otherwise, try to defend yourself rather than point fingers.
Liberals don't get worked up? In case you might have forgotten, liberals were in charge of Waco. But I guess you don't consider storming a compound with tanks "getting worked up".

BTW, I believe that you began the finger pointing with your OP.
I meant liberals as in constituents, not government workers. As blackangst's post clearly mentions, the raid on the compound was commenced by the Bush Administration, a conservative bastion. But I'll let you continue the finger pointing since you don't see the hypocrisy in your own post.
So you can't see your own finger pointing? Did you even read the article about the Mosque, you know, the whole kidnapping thing?

I guess in your world your a hypocrite for anything, the two different stories both have completely different circumstances. Thats like saying that you are a hypocrite if you believe in capital punishment for murderers, but not for every other crime.

Anyways, I'll give ya a 5/10 on this one since I bit.
I'm inferring from you that the Branch Davidians were good christians minding their business when the evil liberal government barged in and burned them to death? And in the case of the muslims, they were evil terrorists that the good government of pakistan stopped from creating further harm?

Well, I can see that your automatic labelling machine has gone into action and you are viewing the events as very different. Well, I can see where you stand despite the fact that you said you were against both:roll:.
How many Chinese workers did the Branch Dividians kidnap? How many Police Officers did the Branch dividians kidnap? How many people did the Branch Dividians kidnap that they "considered to be involved in immoral, un-christian activities"?

Nice job ignoring the rest of my points by the way.
So you are saying that the US Government's action was not justified while teh Pakistani's was? Is that what you're saying? We need a place to start. Yes or No?

How about you answer my questions? Did the Branch Dividians kidnap anyone? I was a kid when all of that went down so I never really followed it and don't know the specifics. But yes it appears that the Pakistani government was justified, these were criminals abducting people.
I'm sorry man. I fractured my right arm today so I won't be a part of this (or any) discussion for a while. I have surgery tomorrow. Take care.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,104
472
126
Originally posted by: Narmer

I'm sorry man. I fractured my right arm today so I won't be a part of this (or any) discussion for a while. I have surgery tomorrow. Take care.
Ouch! Sorry to hear that. Good luck with your surgery, I hope it all goes well.

 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,288
503
126
Originally posted by: Narmer


I'm sorry man. I fractured my right arm today so I won't be a part of this (or any) discussion for a while. I have surgery tomorrow. Take care.
Hope your arm heals quick:clock:, since this place won't be the same without your most interesting posts. :D
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
4
0
Originally posted by: Narmer
I'm sorry man. I fractured my right arm today so I won't be a part of this (or any) discussion for a while. I have surgery tomorrow. Take care.
Ok, just because those of us on the right piss you off doesn?t mean you should take it out of your right arm?

Good luck with the recovery.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,323
777
126
Waco is an American Travesty. The US Military was USED on its own people.

It will be interesting to see what the real facts of Waco are when all the information comes out when all the papers relating to Clintons presidency are released in ~20 years.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
11
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
The only people who cheer for the death of federal agents are the far left and far right crackpots.

And interestingly both sets of crackpots cheer for the same reason. They see federal agents as impugning on their rights.
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
I don't cheer the death of Federal agents even if I understand that many of them were incompetently led. But what we really have here, at least with Waco and Ruby Ridge, is a case where the authority of law enforcement starts to trump both individual legal rights and common sense. And provably in a civil court of law in the case of Ruby Ridge and not yet proved in a court of law in the case of Waco, Federal agents are literally running around gunning people down in cold blood. And using illegal rules of engagement.

The fact that none of this is hitting a CRIMINAL court of law fore these Federal agents is the injustice of it. The American people let the issue fly right over their apathetic heads and the authorities were all too happy to cover things up. And the media was also complicit in the cover up. And even at this late date certain questions can be definitively answered. (1) Were there any FULLY Automatic guns used by Branch Davidians at Waco? Its quite apparent in any sound tapes. A fully automatic weapon is like a clock that ticks at a known rate---even in short bursts. (2) Who issued the warrants and what evidence was shown? (3) Who released army equipment to the ATF---hint name may be Wesley Clark. And what is the evidence of drug use. (4) Interview and listen to surviving Branch Davidians to see if they simply were resigned to the fact that they were being railroaded into jail or not. (5) If any such re- investigation is ever started, I think its important to publically tar those who swept things under rugs. Which in future adds some risk to what is a risk reward problem.

And even if this flies all over the head of the American people and the cover up is successful, we still have to remember that others will take offense. And rightly or wrongly, seek revenge. In the case of Waco, that someone was Tim McVeigh, and ole Timmy made a complete botch of it. He may have thought he was targeting ATF agents responsible, but they were not even present and he ended up mostly killing a bunch of innocent people and many of them were children.

The point is that violence begets violence. And to some extent our government must do violence to stop violence. But a government really screws the pooch when it does irresponsible violence. And yes Virginia, there WILL BE acts of counter violence in Pakistan
over this Mosque storming. Once again the rule of law has won the battle, but in so doing, will it lose the longer war if it loses the moral high ground? And is it better in the grand scheme of thing for authority to be less heavy handed? Humans can be extremely stubborn beasts when they get riled.

Us wussie Liberals don't like to see violence done by anyone---but we do understand why violence begets violence. Our answer and panacea tend to be understanding the facts and then moving to restore the balance of justice. And all too often its the conservatives that are doing the violence or the revenge taking on little more than emotion.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
4
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,829
804
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Nebor
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
You need some serious help.
It's one thing to object to the government when it comes to gun laws, but it's another to cheer when federal agents are killed.

Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well? After all a lot of Mexicans believe it is their ?right? to cross the boarder as they choose.
I dunno PJ but it seems to me many people here would cheer if Bush or Cheney were sent to Iraq and shot *shrug*
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Once again non-Prof John is trying to glorify the vague question---namely--Let me ask you this? if a bunch of boarder patrol agents were killed by Mexicans would you cheer for their deaths as well?

Well the first question we have to ask---is what side of the border they are on and what behaviors are they engaged in? To be AS ridiculous. I could ask could you support a US border agent crossing the border into Mexico and then raping and robbing Mexicans far from the border. And then when such an armed agent still far from the US border fires upon Mexican authorties sent to arrest him, would you think it injustice if said US agent is shot and killed? Well the point is there is zero evidence the scenario I posted is fact--and zero evidence that the implication non-prof John wants you to buy as fact is fact either.

We have to learn the facts before we can make the conclusion----rather than raise the emotion so we can avoid confronting the facts or the questions to be asked.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
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Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think ALL Americans jeered at WACO due to the incompetence that happened there.

David Koresh went to town on a regular basis they could have picked him up on a visit to the town and not had the siege. But someone decided that they needed to raid the compound and the results were a disaster.
Who jeered for the Federal agents that were shot dead serving a legitimate warrant?
The only people who cheer for the death of federal agents are the far left and far right crackpots.

And interestingly both sets of crackpots cheer for the same reason. They see federal agents as impugning on their rights.
Guess that makes me a crackpot. You don't purposely start a war and expect to take no casualties. Those ATF agents got what they deserved. I wish more of them had got what they had coming. There'd be that many less jack-booted thugs trampling our rights today.
Wow man, thats some pretty fucked up stuff to say. If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at those in charge, not the individual agents just executing a warrant. Keep in mind that I do not agree with what happened at Waco at all.
 

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