Hypocrisy at its best - America and Americans

[glenn1]

What has this sort of attitude brought Americans? We have over 600 soldiers dead. Its a shame you will still support the decision the US is making and then call the UN fu*kups. Didnt the US pick their tails and ran away from Somalia which then witnessed mass genocide?

What's this "we" stuff? Are you a citizen? If not, then that pronoun doesn't apply to you. And if you are, you certainly seem to refer to the U.S. in a third-person sense an awfully lot.

As far as Somalia, you're missing the whole history of the situation that the U.S. was engaged for quite a while in stopping the genocide. After the 20,000 Marines were withdrawn and the "Blackhawk Down" incident happened, we did indeed leave Somalia to its own devices. Which was of course a colossal mistake of both leadership and morality, but that's doesn't make our initial intervention there any less real.

As for resorting to name calling, only shows the lack of mental development you've had.

Wow, that's deep coming from someone who draws a moral equivalency between Saddam Hussein and the United States government.

Just because the invasion was supported by the US citizen (still debatable given Bush pretty much lied through the teeth to get the support), it doesn't make it right. Germany and Japan during WWII being the best example.

So democracy is fine with you until the people make a decision you disagree with?

 

[TheBDB]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: TheBDB
You seem to think you know what is truly going on in Iraq....I'm wondering where you are getting your news from?

What part of my posts do you find incorrect? All I ask you all is to look at it from the perspective of a world citizen and not be limited to boundaries. Open your mind and call what is wrong WRONG.

You claimed that 55000 people have died so far, you claimed over half of the 400 people that did recently were innocent civilians, you claimed the Iraqis don't want us there.....I'm just curious where you got this from. Would you "open your mind" if I started telling you random things?

 

[glenn1]

What part of my posts do you find incorrect? All I ask you all is to look at it from the perspective of a world citizen and not be limited to boundaries. Open your mind and call what is wrong WRONG.

Yeah, sorta like this... It was WRONG that the world community didn't take out the Hussein regime about 30 years earlier.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: Sultan
When Saddam gassed the Kurds who were rebelling, Saddam is a dictator and an oppressor and I dont know what other names the American government and Americans called him.

Now when the US is doing the SAME thing in Fallujah, everyone is calling the Fallujah citizens as terrorists, the Shias of Sadr city as militants and killing them left, right and center and the Americans are cheering their government on.

Over 400 dead. The bodies of residents littered around Fallujah.

so what "gas" did the US use on tehse "400 victims"?

Originally posted by: Sultan
This is the "liberation" and the "freedom" the Americans boast about.

yup, and the majority of iraqi's still support our being there, are you saying a better alternative would have been to leave saddam in power while those not in the baath socialist power structure starved? while corruption in the UN "oil for food" program made some UN officials and politicians from france and germany rich while the people suffered? while dissenters against saddam were butchered and dumped in mass graves by the tens of thousands? would it have better simply to protect the status quo while people died for the convenience of the socialist elite?

Originally posted by: Sultan
This is hypocrisy at its best. Anyone who concurs, please just say "aye".

you seem to know hypocrasy well...as most "internationalists" do...from experience.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: glenn1
Wow, that's deep coming from someone who draws a moral equivalency between Saddam Hussein and the United States government.

Sure you can't draw moral equivalency between Saddam and the United States government. Saddam only killed his own people, but US government goes around the world and support dictators like Saddam to kill people all over. Go educate yourself with modern history and see how many dictators US has supported and as a result how many people died.

So democracy is fine with you until the people make a decision you disagree with?

Well, I don't like being a sheep agreeing with some idiotic decision just because it is made by the majority. But if you like that, by all means go ahead.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: blahblah99

Originally posted by: Sultan
When Saddam gassed the Kurds who were rebelling, Saddam is a dictator and an oppressor and I dont know what other names the American government and Americans called him.

Now when the US is doing the SAME thing in Fallujah, everyone is calling the Fallujah citizens as terrorists, the Shias of Sadr city as militants and killing them left, right and center and the Americans are cheering their government on.

Over 400 dead. The bodies of residents littered around Fallujah.

This is the "liberation" and the "freedom" the Americans boast about.

This is hypocrisy at its best. Anyone who concurs, please just say "aye".

It's only freedom and liberation in the eyes of the Bushes.

I wonder when this Operation Iraqi Liberation is going to end.

With current gas prices how can you even use that argument, tard.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: glenn1

lets not diverge, say aye if you agree, and if not, please give reasons.

Aye, it's hypocrisy. And you know what, I don't give a sh!t if it is.

And here's the reasons you asked for. First of all, you're an asshat. Now that we've gotten that out of the way....

As for your almighty United Nations, they're the same fu*kups who sat back and watched genocide occuring on multiple occasions while they sat with their thumbs up their ass. I'd sooner give control of decisions on war and peace to the local PTA than that bunch of losers in the UN. So the default is that United States has to make the decision.

Since that's the case, if you're a citizen, then your recourse is to vote accordingly. If you're not and since I see you're living in Chicago, either get your citizenship so you can exercise your right to vote, or STFU and accept the decisions of your fellow citizens.

What has this sort of attitude brought Americans? We have over 600 soldiers dead. Its a shame you will still support the decision the US is making and then call the UN fu*kups. Didnt the US pick their tails and ran away from Somalia which then witnessed mass genocide?

As for resorting to name calling, only shows the lack of mental development you've had.

Didnt the UN let 900,000 people die in rawanda?

You just like to hear yourself speak like youre intelligent. The sad part is you cant even convey rational thought and contradict yourself.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech
Sultan, I used the word genocide in reference to the Madan. What would you call that action of Saddam's?

This has nothing to do with the topic of this post.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying Saddam was not a dictator and an oppressor and was not responsible for deaths of many innocents, including those from Madan.

Look at Iraq now. They dont want the US there as much as they didnt want Saddam. Food for thought, what America is doing now is as bad as what Saddam was doing.

You must also put things in perspective. The region of Madan became dry because of an economic project initiated by Saddam to divert water. Ofcourse, the Western Media would scream foul and they even may be right about Saddam's intentions. What about the Red Indians of yesteryear? How are they currently living in conservations after being forced out of their land?

The Madan are a people, not a place.

Some Iraqis don't want the US there, the ones in Fallujuh that lived off the rest of the people of Iraq. Some religious fanatics that want to turn Iraq into a Taliban Afghanistan and some people from other countries. If you think that Saddam drained the marshes just because of some economic project you are as brainwashed and callous as you say Americans are.

 

[n0cmonkey]

History is written by the winners baby.

 

[Sultan]

What's this "we" stuff? Are you a citizen? If not, then that pronoun doesn't apply to you. And if you are, you certainly seem to refer to the U.S. in a third-person sense an awfully lot.

I pay my taxes.

As far as Somalia, you're missing the whole history of the situation that the U.S. was engaged for quite a while in stopping the genocide. After the 20,000 Marines were withdrawn and the "Blackhawk Down" incident happened, we did indeed leave Somalia to its own devices. Which was of course a colossal mistake of both leadership and morality, but that's doesn't make our initial intervention there any less real.

Irrelevant to this topic. I presented Somalia as a case when you called the UN f*uckups. Somalia is just ONE example of where the US where you can use the same word you usef for the UN. Atleast TRY to be fair.

Wow, that's deep coming from someone who draws a moral equivalency between Saddam Hussein and the United States government.

Lets see, just between OUR postings, we've already seen US failing to prevent genocide in Somalia. 400 people have died in Iraq in the past week, out of 55000. And you still hold US on higher moral ground?

TheBDB
No one knows the exact number of dead... the Secretary of State has already said we dont do body counts. I read a report on BBC News about the estimated figures which included over 10000 civilian deaths and as few as 13,500 ? or as many as 45,000 ? soldiers and paramilitary fighters. Just in taking Baghdad, U.S. military estimates that 2,320 Iraqi soldiers were killed. You certainly dont have to believe me, and can dispute these numbers. The fact is, we wont ever know. And thats really a shame.

As for my saying half of those dead 'would' be civilians in Fallujah, I can certainly offer no factual basis for that. Yet again, we will never know. No one in war actually goes and picks out the combatants from the civilians.

The current insurgency, which the Western media calls 'terrorism' is the strongest argument that the US is not wanted there. All the goodwill they earned on removing Saddam was lost when they failed to provide security to the Iraqi people.

Yeah, sorta like this... It was WRONG that the world community didn't take out the Hussein regime about 30 years earlier.

No doubt. But the method employed by the US is also WRONG! Also remember, Mr. Hussein received vast amounts of American help prior to the Kuwait invasion. Eight days before his Aug. 2, 1990, invasion of Kuwait, Saddam Hussein met with April Glaspie, then America's ambassador to Iraq. "We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts," the transcript reports Glaspie saying, "such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary [of State James] Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction ... that Kuwait is not associated with America."

Again, we digress.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Sultan
When Saddam gassed the Kurds who were rebelling, Saddam is a dictator and an oppressor and I dont know what other names the American government and Americans called him.

Now when the US is doing the SAME thing in Fallujah, everyone is calling the Fallujah citizens as terrorists, the Shias of Sadr city as militants and killing them left, right and center and the Americans are cheering their government on.

Over 400 dead. The bodies of residents littered around Fallujah.

This is the "liberation" and the "freedom" the Americans boast about.

This is hypocrisy at its best. Anyone who concurs, please just say "aye".

Mission Accomplished

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Sultan

What's this "we" stuff? Are you a citizen? If not, then that pronoun doesn't apply to you. And if you are, you certainly seem to refer to the U.S. in a third-person sense an awfully lot.

I pay my taxes.

As far as Somalia, you're missing the whole history of the situation that the U.S. was engaged for quite a while in stopping the genocide. After the 20,000 Marines were withdrawn and the "Blackhawk Down" incident happened, we did indeed leave Somalia to its own devices. Which was of course a colossal mistake of both leadership and morality, but that's doesn't make our initial intervention there any less real.

Irrelevant to this topic. I presented Somalia as a case when you called the UN f*uckups. Somalia is just ONE example of where the US where you can use the same word you usef for the UN. Atleast TRY to be fair.

Wow, that's deep coming from someone who draws a moral equivalency between Saddam Hussein and the United States government.

Lets see, just between OUR postings, we've already seen US failing to prevent genocide in Somalia. 400 people have died in Iraq in the past week, out of 55000. And you still hold US on higher moral ground?

TheBDB
No one knows the exact number of dead... the Secretary of State has already said we dont do body counts. I read a report on BBC News about the estimated figures which included over 10000 civilian deaths and as few as 13,500 ? or as many as 45,000 ? soldiers and paramilitary fighters. Just in taking Baghdad, U.S. military estimates that 2,320 Iraqi soldiers were killed. You certainly dont have to believe me, and can dispute these numbers. The fact is, we wont ever know. And thats really a shame.

As for my saying half of those dead 'would' be civilians in Fallujah, I can certainly offer no factual basis for that. Yet again, we will never know. No one in war actually goes and picks out the combatants from the civilians.

The current insurgency, which the Western media calls 'terrorism' is the strongest argument that the US is not wanted there. All the goodwill they earned on removing Saddam was lost when they failed to provide security to the Iraqi people.

Yeah, sorta like this... It was WRONG that the world community didn't take out the Hussein regime about 30 years earlier.

No doubt. But the method employed by the US is also WRONG! Also remember, Mr. Hussein received vast amounts of American help prior to the Kuwait invasion. Eight days before his Aug. 2, 1990, invasion of Kuwait, Saddam Hussein met with April Glaspie, then America's ambassador to Iraq. "We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts," the transcript reports Glaspie saying, "such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary [of State James] Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction ... that Kuwait is not associated with America."

Again, we digress.

You left out the next line of Glaspie's statement.
" We hope you can solve this problem using any suitable methods via Klibi or via President Mubarak."

Teriq Aziz stated that the Iraqi government knew that her statement was not a green light to invade Kuwait. What anti-US conspriacy site are you getting your information from?

edit/

You say that you "pay" your taxes. You did not say what country you pay them to.

 

[TheBDB]

So it is possible that almost all of those killed in Fallujah had weapons and were trying to kill US soldiers, and they were killed in self defense. It is possible that the vast majority of Iraqis welcome the US and look forward to democracy, and the insurgency is only a small minority who wish to use the instability for their own gain. That paints a different picture than the assumptions you made in the OP.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech
Sultan, I used the word genocide in reference to the Madan. What would you call that action of Saddam's?

This has nothing to do with the topic of this post.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying Saddam was not a dictator and an oppressor and was not responsible for deaths of many innocents, including those from Madan.

Look at Iraq now. They dont want the US there as much as they didnt want Saddam. Food for thought, what America is doing now is as bad as what Saddam was doing.

You must also put things in perspective. The region of Madan became dry because of an economic project initiated by Saddam to divert water. Ofcourse, the Western Media would scream foul and they even may be right about Saddam's intentions. What about the Red Indians of yesteryear? How are they currently living in conservations after being forced out of their land?

The Madan are a people, not a place.

Some Iraqis don't want the US there, the ones in Fallujuh that lived off the rest of the people of Iraq. Some religious fanatics that want to turn Iraq into a Taliban Afghanistan and some people from other countries. If you think that Saddam drained the marshes just because of some economic project you are as brainwashed and callous as you say Americans are.

Oh come on man, read what I said. I said Saddam was a brutal dictator, and I also said the Western Media may be right about Saddam's intentions regarding the marshlands of Iraq. This is besides the topic anyways.

And can you judge whether SOME Iraqis or MOST Iraqis want the US there or not? 600 US troops dead. How many more would convince you that Iraqis dont want the US in their land? In the past fortnight, there has been violence not only in Fallujah, but also Baghdad, Nasirya and even Basra! And if the people support the religious fanatics, why are you against it? Is the freedom of choice not part of the 'democracy' the US wants to bring to Iraq? Again, this is besides the topic. Stick to the topic PLEASE.

 

[Sultan]

You left out the next line of Glaspie's statement.
" We hope you can solve this problem using any suitable methods via Klibi or via President Mubarak."

Teriq Aziz stated that the Iraqi government knew that her statement was not a green light to invade Kuwait. What anti-US conspriacy site are you getting your information from?

edit/

You say that you "pay" your taxes. You did not say what country you pay them to.

I did not pick up the transcript from an anti-US conspiracy website. Its the actual transcript. Please atleast dont dispute that. And I have read the whole transcript. Prior to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, no one was bothered by Saddam Hussein. I used Ms. Glaspie's statement to emphasize that fact... as you said, he had been in power for 30 years, but only became a dictator and an oppressor and a brutal man after 1991. Regardless, this is not the topic.

I pay my taxes to the US Federal Government and to the state of Illinois. Gives me a right to atleast voice my opinions.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: TheBDB
So it is possible that almost all of those killed in Fallujah had weapons and were trying to kill US soldiers, and they were killed in self defense. It is possible that the vast majority of Iraqis welcome the US and look forward to democracy, and the insurgency is only a small minority who wish to use the instability for their own gain. That paints a different picture than the assumptions you made in the OP.

Come on buddy, do you think a small minority of Iraqis who wish to use the instability will be able to oust control of entire cities from the US forces? The cities of Fallujah, Najaf and Kut are no longer in US forces control, by their own admission. The last two are southern Shiite city. Karbala also has a restive populace.

You may very well be right about those who died in Fallujah, but I dont think you can manage to pick out combatants through aerial radar and then pinpoint a bomb to fall right on each and every person who had a weapon. Regardless, if you are right, then you should refer to my very first statement at the beginning of the topic.

When Saddam quelled a rebellion, he was termed a brutal dictator. Now the US forces are doing the same, leaving 400 dead. Why are you not using the same term for the US forces?

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech
Sultan, I used the word genocide in reference to the Madan. What would you call that action of Saddam's?

This has nothing to do with the topic of this post.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying Saddam was not a dictator and an oppressor and was not responsible for deaths of many innocents, including those from Madan.

Look at Iraq now. They dont want the US there as much as they didnt want Saddam. Food for thought, what America is doing now is as bad as what Saddam was doing.

You must also put things in perspective. The region of Madan became dry because of an economic project initiated by Saddam to divert water. Ofcourse, the Western Media would scream foul and they even may be right about Saddam's intentions. What about the Red Indians of yesteryear? How are they currently living in conservations after being forced out of their land?

The Madan are a people, not a place.

Some Iraqis don't want the US there, the ones in Fallujuh that lived off the rest of the people of Iraq. Some religious fanatics that want to turn Iraq into a Taliban Afghanistan and some people from other countries. If you think that Saddam drained the marshes just because of some economic project you are as brainwashed and callous as you say Americans are.

Oh come on man, read what I said. I said Saddam was a brutal dictator, and I also said the Western Media may be right about Saddam's intentions regarding the marshlands of Iraq. This is besides the topic anyways.

And can you judge whether SOME Iraqis or MOST Iraqis want the US there or not? 600 US troops dead. How many more would convince you that Iraqis dont want the US in their land? In the past fortnight, there has been violence not only in Fallujah, but also Baghdad, Nasirya and even Basra! And if the people support the religious fanatics, why are you against it? Is the freedom of choice not part of the 'democracy' the US wants to bring to Iraq? Again, this is besides the topic. Stick to the topic PLEASE.

Saddam and the Sunni's were a small minority in Iraq yet they controlled it by force. Your argument that because 600 US troops are dead that the majority of Iraqis don't want the US there is not logical as is your assumption that one cleric that has a militia speaks for all of Iraq.

Please try to get informed about what is happening there. Your misinformation, or lack of information ,makes these explanations necessary.

 

[Kerouactivist]

aye

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: etech
Saddam and the Sunni's were a small minority in Iraq yet they controlled it by force. Your argument that because 600 US troops are dead that the majority of Iraqis don't want the US there is not logical as is your assumption that one cleric that has a militia speaks for all of Iraq.

Please try to get informed about what is happening there. Your misinformation, or lack of information ,makes these explanations necessary.

haha, US and it's military is even a smaller minority in Iraq and are you saying they don't control Iraq now, and they are not doing it by force? Are you saying that the American will be perfectly safe if the military presence is not there and Iraqis, the Sunni and the Shiite alike, won't kick the American out ASAP?

Man, you are the one who really need to get informed.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Sultan
When Saddam gassed the Kurds who were rebelling, Saddam is a dictator and an oppressor and I dont know what other names the American government and Americans called him.

Now when the US is doing the SAME thing in Fallujah, everyone is calling the Fallujah citizens as terrorists, the Shias of Sadr city as militants and killing them left, right and center and the Americans are cheering their government on.

Over 400 dead. The bodies of residents littered around Fallujah.

This is the "liberation" and the "freedom" the Americans boast about.

This is hypocrisy at its best. Anyone who concurs, please just say "aye".

The difference is that we as Americans do not pull mutilated and charred bodies from firebombed cars, cheer, drag the bodies through the streets, and hang them from bridges. We do not kidnap journalists and missionaries, and threaten to burn them alive. The "people" who do these kinds of things, as seen in the videos from Fallujah, are not human beings in my eyes, and should not be accorded the rights and priviledges of such. They should be exterminated like the cockroaches that they are.

If you support these "people" who did this, then you are in my eyes one of them.

You disgust me.

May God give those 4 places in Heaven. Offer a prayer for them.

Just because you see those images on television on Fox or CNN doesnt make this incident the only incident of this war. Please try to understand: the Iraqi people, including those of Fallujah have seen the burned and charred bodies of many THOUSANDS of fellow Iraqis who have died by bombs falling from the sky.

You have such anger and disgust at this incident where 4 people died after over a year and a half since this war started. Just imagine, imagine the hurt, anger and disgust the Iraqis have for the Coalition forces after watching almost 55000 of their fellow countrymen dying.

I am not a religious person; I do not "pray" for anyone. I do, however, maintain standards of civility and decency, and do not glorify the deaths of others. On the other hand, the Islamic world appears to behave otherwise: Witness the celebrations of the Palestinians upon the news of 9/11. Witness the cheering of the crowd in Fallujah on seeing the charred bodies pulled from the wreckage. Witness the brutal murder of journalist (journalist! not soldier!) Danny Pearl. Witness the very concept of the suicide bomber who targets the innocent civilian who is just trying to live her life, and witness the Palestinian glorification of such. Witness the Islamic Arabs in the Sudan fighting against the Christian Blacks in the southern part of the country.

The Islamic world is sick. It is a stagnant culture that does not strive to improve the human condition. It glorifies misery and death in the name of religion. It cannot tolerate criticism of itself (witness the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and his widespread condemnation throughout the Islamic world). It is a culture that is going nowhere.

If you identify with the Islamic world and oppose Western values, you disgust me.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech
Sultan, I used the word genocide in reference to the Madan. What would you call that action of Saddam's?

This has nothing to do with the topic of this post.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying Saddam was not a dictator and an oppressor and was not responsible for deaths of many innocents, including those from Madan.

Look at Iraq now. They dont want the US there as much as they didnt want Saddam. Food for thought, what America is doing now is as bad as what Saddam was doing.

You must also put things in perspective. The region of Madan became dry because of an economic project initiated by Saddam to divert water. Ofcourse, the Western Media would scream foul and they even may be right about Saddam's intentions. What about the Red Indians of yesteryear? How are they currently living in conservations after being forced out of their land?

The Madan are a people, not a place.

Some Iraqis don't want the US there, the ones in Fallujuh that lived off the rest of the people of Iraq. Some religious fanatics that want to turn Iraq into a Taliban Afghanistan and some people from other countries. If you think that Saddam drained the marshes just because of some economic project you are as brainwashed and callous as you say Americans are.

Oh come on man, read what I said. I said Saddam was a brutal dictator, and I also said the Western Media may be right about Saddam's intentions regarding the marshlands of Iraq. This is besides the topic anyways.

And can you judge whether SOME Iraqis or MOST Iraqis want the US there or not? 600 US troops dead. How many more would convince you that Iraqis dont want the US in their land? In the past fortnight, there has been violence not only in Fallujah, but also Baghdad, Nasirya and even Basra! And if the people support the religious fanatics, why are you against it? Is the freedom of choice not part of the 'democracy' the US wants to bring to Iraq? Again, this is besides the topic. Stick to the topic PLEASE.

Saddam and the Sunni's were a small minority in Iraq yet they controlled it by force. Your argument that because 600 US troops are dead that the majority of Iraqis don't want the US there is not logical as is your assumption that one cleric that has a militia speaks for all of Iraq.

Please try to get informed about what is happening there. Your misinformation, or lack of information ,makes these explanations necessary.

Again, let me emphasize: Fallujah, Kut and Nasirya are no longer in control of the US forces. Rebels are in partial control of the city of Najaf. The US has also rushed troops to the holy city of Karbala, to reinforce the hard-pressed Bulgarian and Polish troops based there. All of this has been taken from BBC News' website. You can read it yourself. This is your lack of information which makes this explanation necessary.

Sunni's and Shia's are both sects of Islam. Being a Muslim myself, please let me reassure you, there is not any truth about the hostility between the two sects. This is your lack of information which makes this explanation necessary.

As for my "argument" about the 600 US troops dead, I just hope we dont see more dying to figure out the Iraqis dont want the US troops in their nation. As for the 10000 strong militia of Moqtada Sadr (figure also taken from the BBC News' website), I doubt they would be able to take over the above cities from a much better equipped, trained and stronger US force. Make your own guess what the people of the above cities want.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Sultan
When Saddam gassed the Kurds who were rebelling, Saddam is a dictator and an oppressor and I dont know what other names the American government and Americans called him.

Now when the US is doing the SAME thing in Fallujah, everyone is calling the Fallujah citizens as terrorists, the Shias of Sadr city as militants and killing them left, right and center and the Americans are cheering their government on.

Over 400 dead. The bodies of residents littered around Fallujah.

This is the "liberation" and the "freedom" the Americans boast about.

This is hypocrisy at its best. Anyone who concurs, please just say "aye".

The difference is that we as Americans do not pull mutilated and charred bodies from firebombed cars, cheer, drag the bodies through the streets, and hang them from bridges. We do not kidnap journalists and missionaries, and threaten to burn them alive. The "people" who do these kinds of things, as seen in the videos from Fallujah, are not human beings in my eyes, and should not be accorded the rights and priviledges of such. They should be exterminated like the cockroaches that they are.

If you support these "people" who did this, then you are in my eyes one of them.

You disgust me.

May God give those 4 places in Heaven. Offer a prayer for them.

Just because you see those images on television on Fox or CNN doesnt make this incident the only incident of this war. Please try to understand: the Iraqi people, including those of Fallujah have seen the burned and charred bodies of many THOUSANDS of fellow Iraqis who have died by bombs falling from the sky.

You have such anger and disgust at this incident where 4 people died after over a year and a half since this war started. Just imagine, imagine the hurt, anger and disgust the Iraqis have for the Coalition forces after watching almost 55000 of their fellow countrymen dying.

I am not a religious person; I do not "pray" for anyone. I do, however, maintain standards of civility and decency, and do not glorify the deaths of others. On the other hand, the Islamic world appears to behave otherwise: Witness the celebrations of the Palestinians upon the news of 9/11. Witness the cheering of the crowd in Fallujah on seeing the charred bodies pulled from the wreckage. Witness the brutal murder of journalist (journalist! not soldier!) Danny Pearl. Witness the very concept of the suicide bomber who targets the innocent civilian who is just trying to live her life, and witness the Palestinian glorification of such. Witness the Islamic Arabs in the Sudan fighting against the Christian Blacks in the southern part of the country.

The Islamic world is sick. It is a stagnant culture that does not strive to improve the human condition. It glorifies misery and death in the name of religion. It cannot tolerate criticism of itself (witness the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and his widespread condemnation throughout the Islamic world). It is a culture that is going nowhere.

If you identify with the Islamic world and oppose Western values, you disgust me.

Another case of Islamophobia Nothing to be said here

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech
Sultan, I used the word genocide in reference to the Madan. What would you call that action of Saddam's?

This has nothing to do with the topic of this post.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying Saddam was not a dictator and an oppressor and was not responsible for deaths of many innocents, including those from Madan.

Look at Iraq now. They dont want the US there as much as they didnt want Saddam. Food for thought, what America is doing now is as bad as what Saddam was doing.

You must also put things in perspective. The region of Madan became dry because of an economic project initiated by Saddam to divert water. Ofcourse, the Western Media would scream foul and they even may be right about Saddam's intentions. What about the Red Indians of yesteryear? How are they currently living in conservations after being forced out of their land?

The Madan are a people, not a place.

Some Iraqis don't want the US there, the ones in Fallujuh that lived off the rest of the people of Iraq. Some religious fanatics that want to turn Iraq into a Taliban Afghanistan and some people from other countries. If you think that Saddam drained the marshes just because of some economic project you are as brainwashed and callous as you say Americans are.

Oh come on man, read what I said. I said Saddam was a brutal dictator, and I also said the Western Media may be right about Saddam's intentions regarding the marshlands of Iraq. This is besides the topic anyways.

And can you judge whether SOME Iraqis or MOST Iraqis want the US there or not? 600 US troops dead. How many more would convince you that Iraqis dont want the US in their land? In the past fortnight, there has been violence not only in Fallujah, but also Baghdad, Nasirya and even Basra! And if the people support the religious fanatics, why are you against it? Is the freedom of choice not part of the 'democracy' the US wants to bring to Iraq? Again, this is besides the topic. Stick to the topic PLEASE.

Saddam and the Sunni's were a small minority in Iraq yet they controlled it by force. Your argument that because 600 US troops are dead that the majority of Iraqis don't want the US there is not logical as is your assumption that one cleric that has a militia speaks for all of Iraq.

Please try to get informed about what is happening there. Your misinformation, or lack of information ,makes these explanations necessary.

Again, let me emphasize: Fallujah, Kut and Nasirya are no longer in control of the US forces. Rebels are in partial control of the city of Najaf. The US has also rushed troops to the holy city of Karbala, to reinforce the hard-pressed Bulgarian and Polish troops based there. All of this has been taken from BBC News' website. You can read it yourself. This is your lack of information which makes this explanation necessary.

Sunni's and Shia's are both sects of Islam. Being a Muslim myself, please let me reassure you, there is not any truth about the hostility between the two sects. This is your lack of information which makes this explanation necessary.

As for my "argument" about the 600 US troops dead, I just hope we dont see more dying to figure out the Iraqis dont want the US troops in their nation. As for the 10000 strong militia of Moqtada Sadr (figure also taken from the BBC News' website), I doubt they would be able to take over the above cities from a much better equipped, trained and stronger US force. Make your own guess what the people of the above cities want.

I don't know if you are lying, trolling or just plain stupid but I don't see any reason to continue this whichever one you are.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Sultan
When Saddam gassed the Kurds who were rebelling, Saddam is a dictator and an oppressor and I dont know what other names the American government and Americans called him.

Now when the US is doing the SAME thing in Fallujah, everyone is calling the Fallujah citizens as terrorists, the Shias of Sadr city as militants and killing them left, right and center and the Americans are cheering their government on.

Over 400 dead. The bodies of residents littered around Fallujah.

This is the "liberation" and the "freedom" the Americans boast about.

This is hypocrisy at its best. Anyone who concurs, please just say "aye".

The difference is that we as Americans do not pull mutilated and charred bodies from firebombed cars, cheer, drag the bodies through the streets, and hang them from bridges. We do not kidnap journalists and missionaries, and threaten to burn them alive. The "people" who do these kinds of things, as seen in the videos from Fallujah, are not human beings in my eyes, and should not be accorded the rights and priviledges of such. They should be exterminated like the cockroaches that they are.

If you support these "people" who did this, then you are in my eyes one of them.

You disgust me.

May God give those 4 places in Heaven. Offer a prayer for them.

Just because you see those images on television on Fox or CNN doesnt make this incident the only incident of this war. Please try to understand: the Iraqi people, including those of Fallujah have seen the burned and charred bodies of many THOUSANDS of fellow Iraqis who have died by bombs falling from the sky.

You have such anger and disgust at this incident where 4 people died after over a year and a half since this war started. Just imagine, imagine the hurt, anger and disgust the Iraqis have for the Coalition forces after watching almost 55000 of their fellow countrymen dying.

I am not a religious person; I do not "pray" for anyone. I do, however, maintain standards of civility and decency, and do not glorify the deaths of others. On the other hand, the Islamic world appears to behave otherwise: Witness the celebrations of the Palestinians upon the news of 9/11. Witness the cheering of the crowd in Fallujah on seeing the charred bodies pulled from the wreckage. Witness the brutal murder of journalist (journalist! not soldier!) Danny Pearl. Witness the very concept of the suicide bomber who targets the innocent civilian who is just trying to live her life, and witness the Palestinian glorification of such. Witness the Islamic Arabs in the Sudan fighting against the Christian Blacks in the southern part of the country.

The Islamic world is sick. It is a stagnant culture that does not strive to improve the human condition. It glorifies misery and death in the name of religion. It cannot tolerate criticism of itself (witness the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and his widespread condemnation throughout the Islamic world). It is a culture that is going nowhere.

If you identify with the Islamic world and oppose Western values, you disgust me.

Another case of Islamophobia Nothing to be said here

Wrong again. I am not afraid of Islam.

I just hold it in contempt, based on what I said above with regard to not its not striving to improve the human condition, and I feel disgust, based on its glorification of misery and death.

I have this belief that the world would be a better place without Islam.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: etech
Sultan, I used the word genocide in reference to the Madan. What would you call that action of Saddam's?

This has nothing to do with the topic of this post.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not saying Saddam was not a dictator and an oppressor and was not responsible for deaths of many innocents, including those from Madan.

Look at Iraq now. They dont want the US there as much as they didnt want Saddam. Food for thought, what America is doing now is as bad as what Saddam was doing.

You must also put things in perspective. The region of Madan became dry because of an economic project initiated by Saddam to divert water. Ofcourse, the Western Media would scream foul and they even may be right about Saddam's intentions. What about the Red Indians of yesteryear? How are they currently living in conservations after being forced out of their land?

The Madan are a people, not a place.

Some Iraqis don't want the US there, the ones in Fallujuh that lived off the rest of the people of Iraq. Some religious fanatics that want to turn Iraq into a Taliban Afghanistan and some people from other countries. If you think that Saddam drained the marshes just because of some economic project you are as brainwashed and callous as you say Americans are.

Oh come on man, read what I said. I said Saddam was a brutal dictator, and I also said the Western Media may be right about Saddam's intentions regarding the marshlands of Iraq. This is besides the topic anyways.

And can you judge whether SOME Iraqis or MOST Iraqis want the US there or not? 600 US troops dead. How many more would convince you that Iraqis dont want the US in their land? In the past fortnight, there has been violence not only in Fallujah, but also Baghdad, Nasirya and even Basra! And if the people support the religious fanatics, why are you against it? Is the freedom of choice not part of the 'democracy' the US wants to bring to Iraq? Again, this is besides the topic. Stick to the topic PLEASE.

Saddam and the Sunni's were a small minority in Iraq yet they controlled it by force. Your argument that because 600 US troops are dead that the majority of Iraqis don't want the US there is not logical as is your assumption that one cleric that has a militia speaks for all of Iraq.

Please try to get informed about what is happening there. Your misinformation, or lack of information ,makes these explanations necessary.

Again, let me emphasize: Fallujah, Kut and Nasirya are no longer in control of the US forces. Rebels are in partial control of the city of Najaf. The US has also rushed troops to the holy city of Karbala, to reinforce the hard-pressed Bulgarian and Polish troops based there. All of this has been taken from BBC News' website. You can read it yourself. This is your lack of information which makes this explanation necessary.

Sunni's and Shia's are both sects of Islam. Being a Muslim myself, please let me reassure you, there is not any truth about the hostility between the two sects. This is your lack of information which makes this explanation necessary.

As for my "argument" about the 600 US troops dead, I just hope we dont see more dying to figure out the Iraqis dont want the US troops in their nation. As for the 10000 strong militia of Moqtada Sadr (figure also taken from the BBC News' website), I doubt they would be able to take over the above cities from a much better equipped, trained and stronger US force. Make your own guess what the people of the above cities want.

I don't know if you are lying, trolling or just plain stupid but I don't see any reason to continue this whichever one you are.

Well, go read BBC News, you dont have to believe me. Just go read.