Hybrids could pay more gas tax; U.S. to study tariffs on miles driven, not gallons purchased

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
that sucks, they are lowering demand for hybrids, which is not a good idea considering the price of oil

Their required taxes can't possibly put in a consideration for whether hybrids are attractive or not. If a small increase in tax is not making a hybrid any longer attractive, the problem is the hybrid, not the tax. As is they already are not cost-efficient compared to non-hybrids, so those buying them aren't doing it to ultimately save money anyway.

 

[QuitBanningMe]

Makes sense to me.

 

[StageLeft]

That's fine. Hybrids use less gas? Tax each gallon at a higher rate. I'm already resigned to paying $2.20 a gallon and when we purchase less foriegn oil, and Opec realizes they no longer have us in a stranglehold, the cost for refiners will come down and balance out in the end. I would prefer to pay $1 more per tank than to be Lo-jacked by the government. Big Brother is watching. <puts on tin hat>

I agree and I think that's not only an easier implementation, but probably more palatable to most people.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Skoorb
We had a long thread on this weeks ago, NFS4 😉 I can't find it. Take my word for it 😀

In fact it makes sense, as a hybrid "uses" as much road as a vehicle the same weight/size that gets much less mileage, and yet the hybrid is paying less in taxes towards supporting that road.

But they don't use as much gas. We can always replace roads, but fossil fuels aren't a reneweable resource AFAIK.

But realize that gas taxes are not there to punish people for using gas. They are there to gain funds, which are then used for things like road maintenance. If everybody got a million miles to the gallon, where would this tax money come from?

Then raise regular gas taxes, don't create an ultra complicated GPS/odometer system that creates more cost, has privacy concerns, and indirectly punishes people for being efficency minded.

As for adverse effects on economy...Well extra taxes are going to cause that anyway, and thats what this is. Raise the tax only for consumer vehicles.

Gas taxes are there for funds, yes, but they can also serve another purpose by helping steer people towards more economic vehicles. Because god knows people aren't going to do that on their own.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Are people just knee jerking that it's bad or actually thinking about it? Gas taxes are used to subsidize road work and the department of transportation.

I'm okay with the state losing the hundreds of dollars in revenue annually. The tradeoff of reduced fuel consumption and the benefit to the environment is worth it IMO.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Are people just knee jerking that it's bad or actually thinking about it? Gas taxes are used to subsidize road work and the department of transportation.

I'm okay with the state losing the hundreds of dollars in revenue annually. The tradeoff of reduced fuel consumption and the benefit to the environment is worth it IMO.

And who would you suggest be responsible for paying the bill dodged by the hybrid drivers?

Viper GTS

 

[JulesMaximus]

The scary thing is the Democrats will vote yes on it because anything that raises taxes is a good thing in their minds and the Republicans will also vote yes on it because they will want the environmentalists to "pay their fair share."

Hopefully, Arnold will be the voice of sanity and reason on the issue though.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: bsobel

But they don't use as much gas. We can always replace roads, but fossil fuels aren't a reneweable resource AFAIK.

The hybrids are arguably worse for the enrivoment once you factor in the need to replace the batteries every 70k miles are so...

Haven't we been recycling lead acid batteries for years now?.....

Sure, each hybrid has 10x more batteries on it than a normal car, but there are also 10000x more normal cars than hybrids.....

It is not a problem. Just like used engine oil, every shop and autoparts store will take in dead batteries for recycling, just like they do.. right now.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Are people just knee jerking that it's bad or actually thinking about it? Gas taxes are used to subsidize road work and the department of transportation.

I'm okay with the state losing the hundreds of dollars in revenue annually. The tradeoff of reduced fuel consumption and the benefit to the environment is worth it IMO.

And who would you suggest be responsible for paying the bill dodged by the hybrid drivers?

Viper GTS

It's not just hybrids. It's ANY vehicle that gets high gas mileage. Civics, Corollas, diesel cars (Jetta, Golf, etc)

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Are people just knee jerking that it's bad or actually thinking about it? Gas taxes are used to subsidize road work and the department of transportation.

I'm okay with the state losing the hundreds of dollars in revenue annually. The tradeoff of reduced fuel consumption and the benefit to the environment is worth it IMO.

And who would you suggest be responsible for paying the bill dodged by the hybrid drivers?

Viper GTS

It isn't dodged, these vehicles consume gas. They just consume less. I have no problem with rewarding those who choose an environmentally friendly car over an SUV.

Don't like it? Then don't buy a big gas hog of a vehicle.

 

[Vic]

w00t! Another tax break for big, heavy, gas-guzzling SUV's!!


:roll:

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Are people just knee jerking that it's bad or actually thinking about it? Gas taxes are used to subsidize road work and the department of transportation.

I'm okay with the state losing the hundreds of dollars in revenue annually. The tradeoff of reduced fuel consumption and the benefit to the environment is worth it IMO.

And who would you suggest be responsible for paying the bill dodged by the hybrid drivers?

Viper GTS

What "bill dodged"? They pay gas taxes, just the same as you and me. They pay less because they use less.

This is like taxing beer at 5%, then if you drink under 3 beers a week, charging you an extra $0.50 per beer. You're taxed twice on something because you use less of it.

And that "hybrids are pounding the roads" thing is BS. Those things look like a golf cart with a cab. Don't tell me that a hybrid does the same amount of wear and tear on a road as a Chevy suburban. They weigh less and they have smaller tires. It just doesn't add up.

 

[cbehnken]

This whole country seems hell bent on punishing people for trying? Why doesn't everyone just give up?

 

[ElFenix]

the gas tax is a poor proxy for the wear done to roads based on vehicle weight and distance driven.

if you want it to be tied to environmental damage then the tax should be much higher to begin with. probably no state has a tax based on environmental damage for gasoline.

 

[vi edit]

I'd like to know how long it takes in "lost" gas tax revenue to equal the increased sales tax revenue the states get from the purchase of a hybrid.

A hybrid runs about $3,000-$5,000 more than a non hybrid version. Given a sales tax of anywhere from 5%-9% that is an additional $150-$450 that the state is getting from the hybrid.

How many miles does it take for a hybrid to steal that much revenue from the state at the pump?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
the gas tax is a poor proxy for the wear done to roads based on vehicle weight and distance driven.

if you want it to be tied to environmental damage then the tax should be much higher to begin with. probably no state has a tax based on environmental damage for gasoline.

Trouble is that this solution punishes those who choose more economical modes of transportation. I think that is the wrong direction to go.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
They pay gas taxes, just the same as you and me. They pay less because they use less.

They use less GAS but they use the same amount of ROAD. The fuel tax is ostensibly to pay for use of the road, not use of the gas.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: ElFenix
the gas tax is a poor proxy for the wear done to roads based on vehicle weight and distance driven.

if you want it to be tied to environmental damage then the tax should be much higher to begin with. probably no state has a tax based on environmental damage for gasoline.

Trouble is that this solution punishes those who choose more economical modes of transportation. I think that is the wrong direction to go.

they cause the same damage to the road, right now they're being subsidized.

i do think this implementation is poor. it would be much easier if you just paid the fee every time you renewed your registration.

 

[Mark R]

I wonder how this would go down with truckers and others who drive heavy vehicles. In terms of road maintenance, big rigs are the worst - a large semi truck causes about 100,000 times as much road wear per mile as a passenger car. They are also responsible for considerably more particulate and other pollution, as well as causing significantly more congestion.

Essentially, this is just going to be a way for the private motorist to subsidise big business and a way to discourage people from pursuing new and improved auto technology.

 

[trmiv]

They should just put big scales in gas stations, and change the tax rate based on the weight of your vehicle.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Are people just knee jerking that it's bad or actually thinking about it? Gas taxes are used to subsidize road work and the department of transportation.

I'm okay with the state losing the hundreds of dollars in revenue annually. The tradeoff of reduced fuel consumption and the benefit to the environment is worth it IMO.

And who would you suggest be responsible for paying the bill dodged by the hybrid drivers?

Viper GTS

It's not just hybrids. It's ANY vehicle that gets high gas mileage. Civics, Corollas, diesel cars (Jetta, Golf, etc)

Of course, but we have people in this thread arguing that the lower gas consumption (and thus lower tax burden) is a primary advantage of hybrids.

Also, I would argue that traditional high gas mileage vehicles achieved this in large part due to their weight. Hybrids reduce the relationship between gas mileage & road wear.

For example (Using Edmunds' data):

2005 Civic Hybrid
Curb Weight: 2736 lbs.
48/47 mpg

2005 Civic HX Coupe
Curb Weight: 2440 lbs
Manual: 36 mpg / 44 mpg

The end result is the hybrid pays less tax while likely causing MORE road wear.

The system needs to be updated.

My suggestion would be this:

Taxes paid on yearly registration based on vehicle weight. Flat mileage x rate calculation.

Optional checkpoints at state borders to allow drivers to receive exit/re-entry receipts documenting mileage. Not mandatory, but it allows people to deduct out of state mileage come registration renewal if they want. For short trips or those people who can't be bothered you could still leave/re-enter without incident.

The remaining problem I see is mileage off of public roads, but for most people that would be negligible.

Viper GTS

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
Those things look like a golf cart with a cab.

You're telling me that THIS and THIS and THIS look like a golf cart with a cab?

Times have changed my friend. You obviously haven't been paying attention to the progress made in this technology.

 

[Ryan]

What about the stress put on roads by particular vehicles? Currently, the highest MPG vehicles are very light, therefore causing less stress on roads. Why should they take a penalty for road wear when SUVs cause degradation of them to a greater extent ?

Just a random thought. The tax money lost from the few high mileage hybrid owners there currently are should not be a large amount - in fact, with the recent SUV boom, the loss should be offset, correct?

 

[darkamulets]

Why can't we just charge the people that have vehicles with less mile/gallon more for the gas? My accent puts a fraction of the wear and tear on the system compared to someone's expedition.

 

[jlee]

I've seen roads that don't need to be fixed getting repaved..and roads in desperate need of fixing being ignored...IMHO, they have enough money -- it just needs to be directed more efficiently.