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HVAC - Gas Furnace help

T

TEEZLE

Platinum Member
I have a Trane XE78 (I believe is the model unit). The ignitor keeps going out. I replaced one about a month ago and then it burned out. About two days ago I replaced it again and today it broke again.

First question, the ignitor is on the top gas line coming into the house. Should the ignitor be directly on the flame coming into the house? Or should it be above or below the flame? I was thinking it maybe should not be constantly heated like that in the direct path?

Second question, I may have mixed up the two wires for the ignitor and have them possibly hooked up wrong? Would that make a difference? Only reason it still lights up when I first put it in there and I could see it turn red.

Please help you all my kids are cold!

Only reason I don't want the HVAC people to come because about two years ago they charged me $325 to put in that $50 ignitor. Plus I just don't want them to replace the ignitor and have it break again.

Thanks guys in advance
 
generally natural gas HVAC stuff isnt really to be repaired by non-professionals, as it could lead to CO poison...

but a google search yields that the flame sensor is a commong problem in that model.
might want to start there... or go back to school for HVAC yourself.
 
Believe it or not, the ignitor is a two wire deal. It's not anything major. I will look into the flame sensor.

Thanks for the quick reply!
 
I don't think it's the flame sensor. The sensor is only for detecting gas and doesnt apply to the ignitor itself. The gas is still coming in, it's just that the ignitor keeps breaking. I will look and possibly lightly sandpaper the sensor?
 
After reading your post, please call the HVAC people..$325 is a small price to pay for heat and a properly running furnace.
 
Think I am going to call and get them to come over. I have agood feeling it's going to cost money. I do have a spare ignitor, and hopefully that might save me a bit?
 
Don't be an idiot, gas is nothing to screw around with, call in professionals. Aren't your children worth it?
 
Originally posted by: preCRT
Don't be an idiot, gas is nothing to screw around with, call in professionals. Aren't your children worth it?
Click to expand...

I was going to suggest something to try but you are right. We don't know his skill set and there is no point in blowing up his kids.
 
Originally posted by: TEEZLE
Think I am going to call and get them to come over. I have agood feeling it's going to cost money. I do have a spare ignitor, and hopefully that might save me a bit?
Click to expand...

It might not be as much as you are worried about, but at least it will be taken care of properly.

Not all service people are out to screw you..just call someone reputable.
 
Explain the ignitor problems you have been having to the repair person. They may already know what's going on.
 
Thanks for the info guys. Calling companies now to see their "service fees". I am still wondering if I accidentally hooked up the two wires to the ignitor crossed? Would the ignitor still come on if the wires are crossed?
 
Originally posted by: TEEZLE
Thanks for the info guys. Calling companies now to see their "service fees". I am still wondering if I accidentally hooked up the two wires to the ignitor crossed? Would the ignitor still come on if the wires are crossed?
Click to expand...

Likely the ignitor is not a "1 way" device - meaning it likely doesn't matter which way you hooked up the wires. However, I don't know what model you have so I can't be 100% sure. On mine - it doesn't matter.

However, unless you get a "good" repair guy all you will get out of calling a hvac company is another new(and more expensive due to their mark up) ignitor. If I had to venture a guess, the controller itself is the problem - OR your ignitor has not been installed correctly.
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: TEEZLE
Thanks for the info guys. Calling companies now to see their "service fees". I am still wondering if I accidentally hooked up the two wires to the ignitor crossed? Would the ignitor still come on if the wires are crossed?
Click to expand...

Likely the ignitor is not a "1 way" device - meaning it likely doesn't matter which way you hooked up the wires. However, I don't know what model you have so I can't be 100% sure. On mine - it doesn't matter.

However, unless you get a "good" repair guy all you will get out of calling a hvac company is another new(and more expensive due to their mark up) ignitor. If I had to venture a guess, the controller itself is the problem - OR your ignitor has not been installed correctly.
Click to expand...

Can you please elaborate more on the controller. Is it an easy part to replace? Also, the ignitor is 41-402 part number.

Thanks for the help!!
 
Originally posted by: TEEZLE
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: TEEZLE
Thanks for the info guys. Calling companies now to see their "service fees". I am still wondering if I accidentally hooked up the two wires to the ignitor crossed? Would the ignitor still come on if the wires are crossed?
Click to expand...

Likely the ignitor is not a "1 way" device - meaning it likely doesn't matter which way you hooked up the wires. However, I don't know what model you have so I can't be 100% sure. On mine - it doesn't matter.

However, unless you get a "good" repair guy all you will get out of calling a hvac company is another new(and more expensive due to their mark up) ignitor. If I had to venture a guess, the controller itself is the problem - OR your ignitor has not been installed correctly.
Click to expand...

Can you please elaborate more on the controller. Is it an easy part to replace? Also, the ignitor is 41-402 part number.

Thanks for the help!!
Click to expand...

Don't listen to me. 😛 I'm just a weekend warrior when it comes to these things. The controller is the device you wire the ignitor to(unless by "ignitor" you were meaning controller the whole time...but that's a different issue). I have no idea on your particular model how easy or hard it is to replace. Some are quite easy - others are a bear due to location and poor design(10lbs shit in 5lb box).

Best call the pros, even though I think you'll just get another ignitor.
 
Originally posted by: TEEZLE
I have a Trane XE78 (I believe is the model unit). The ignitor keeps going out. I replaced one about a month ago and then it burned out. About two days ago I replaced it again and today it broke again.

First question, the ignitor is on the top gas line coming into the house. Should the ignitor be directly on the flame coming into the house? Or should it be above or below the flame? I was thinking it maybe should not be constantly heated like that in the direct path?

Second question, I may have mixed up the two wires for the ignitor and have them possibly hooked up wrong? Would that make a difference? Only reason it still lights up when I first put it in there and I could see it turn red.

Please help you all my kids are cold!

Only reason I don't want the HVAC people to come because about two years ago they charged me $325 to put in that $50 ignitor. Plus I just don't want them to replace the ignitor and have it break again.

Thanks guys in advance
Click to expand...


The ignitor is merely 2 pieces of metal seperated by a gap, and 2 lead wires.
It acts very much like the spark plug in an automobile. Unless the new ignitor has become severly corroded in the last month, your problem lies elsewhere.
 
I agree with most posters, this problem is unclear enough that a pro should be involved. And make sure you tell him / her the history of repeated rapid ignitor failures.

If it helps, here's my understanding of the process. There are four major components ; a controller, an ignitor, a flame sensor and a thermostat. Let's start from the situation that the temperature in the room / house is OK and the thermostat is happy. Now th temp cools down and the thermostat closes a switch connected to the controller. Its job is to get the burner started safely. So, it turns on the ignitor which starts sparking and at almost the same time opens the gas valve to send gas to the burner. Then it waits and watches the output of the flame sensor (which may be as simple as a temperature sensor). It is pre-programmed to wait for a fixed time period. Provided that, within that time period, the flame sensor confirms that there is a flame established, the controller shuts off the ignitor and keeps the gas valve open. This continues until the thermostat opens its switch to signal that the room temperature is back up to OK, at which time the controller shuts off the gas and we're back to our starting point.

Now, suppose the flame sensor does NOT confirm the flame in the allowed time? Then the controller will shut off the gas and the ignitor and wait for a (different) pre-set time before doing anything else. The reasoning is that no flame means there is unburned gas floating around which is an explosion risk and a poison risk, so the gas valve must be shut off before there's enough gas to cause a huge problem. The wait time is pre-set to allow for natural drafts and diffusion to let all of the unburned gas to escape before anything else is done. The more likely "anything else" is that it will re-try to ignite, just as if the thermostat had just asked for heat.

Now, it is possible that the controller could malfunction itself, rather than its inputs. Suppose, for example, that it kept feeding power to the ignitor when it was supposed to be off, which is most of the time. The ignitor would burn out pretty quickly - it is supposed to be arcing for about 5 seconds every hour or so, and then only when it's cold. If it ran all the time, or even all the time the flame is burning, it would wear out fast. For curiosity, you might look into the burner area and watch what the ignitor is doing when it goes from no activity through the ignition time to full flame burning. It is only supposed to be arcing for a short period at the very beginning of the burn cycle.

If any component of this system is malfunctioning it needs to be identified and fixed (or, more likely, replaced). For example, if the controller is running the ignitor too long and causing this problem, what else will it do wrong later? Leave the gas on too long? Forget to turn on the ignitor? Many scary things could result, so a faulty controller needs to be replaced soon.
 
You guys are great. Thanks a lot for the information Paperdoc. The ignitor did come on and off after about 4 seconds. So it "seemed" to be working normally. Now I have the ignitor in direct center of the upper flame. Should the ignitor be directly in the center path of the flame? Or should it be a little above or below the path?

Thanks agian for the help you guys.
 
My ignitor is slightly to the left of one of my burner jets.

I recently had a problem where the input hose for the draft sensor was clogged up near the draft inducer fan. I cleaned this out with some wire and now my unit runs great.
 
Originally posted by: tranceport
My ignitor is slightly to the left of one of my burner jets.

I recently had a problem where the input hose for the draft sensor was clogged up near the draft inducer fan. I cleaned this out with some wire and now my unit runs great.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the great info!
 
ugh, i had furnace issues back in the fall, but luckily for me all i had to do was pull my flame sensor out and sand it down a bit / clean it off with some sandpaper and now everything works great.
 
Originally posted by: MotF Bane
http://www.bostonherald.com/ne...c=home&position=recent
http://www.abc6.com/news/41938217.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_11986412
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/721251.html

Don't fuck around with it, call somebody who knows what they're doing.
Click to expand...

http://www.norwichbulletin.com...-in-I-395-crash-Monday
http://cbs4.com/local/Traffic.Alert.Fatal.2.972071.html
http://www.myeyewitnessnews.co...9NtH02UB8getb-eag.cspx
http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/st...sp?S=10090523&nav=s6ak

Don't mess around with driving, a car is very dangerous. Please, only let people who know what they're doing drive you around.

Good luck with it, I have a Heil which is ridiculously easy to work on, so I hope yours is too.
 
Well, it's working again!

First of all, I called 3 different HVAC companies. First one said it would be a $225 diagnostic fee because he couldn't come over until after 5p.m. which is considered an emergency call. Second one said plain and simple he won't be able to come over until tomorrow. Third said he will have to call me back but never did!

For the sake of it, I go underneath the house (where the unit is located on a cement floor). I pulled the ignitor and saw the white mark where it looks like it failed. I said to hell with it and sanded off the white burn marks. I then think what I saw meltdown75 said were two flame sensors (one on top and bottom of unit). They were both completely covered in carbon and once cleaned I could see the metal underneath. I then adjusted the position of the ignitor so it is above but very close to the first gas burner. Tested it out and low and behold, the damn thing ignited and lit the gas coming in. I cycled it about 10 times to verify it is working and the ignitor shut off when it was supposed to. Hopefully the darn thing will keep working until the warm weather gets here.

Wondering if the ignitor couldn't withstand the heat being directly in the center of the flame coming in?

You guys are great and I appreciate all your guys help and guidance in this whole ordeal.

EDIT: I am not encouraging anyone to work on thier own gas unit, because it is dangerous. And if in doubt, call the experts. But if you decide to do what I consider to be an "easyish" ignitor repair, make sure to cut the power and shut the gas valve.
 
Well, I spoke too soon. The unit started blowing cold air again. Went underneath and this time put in the new ignitor. Next time (if) it fails, I am calling a company. Enough already!!!!! LOL
 
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