cybrsage
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2011
- 13,021
- 0
- 0
I didn't lie.
Then post the forums, are does that require too much bravery?
I didn't lie.
Patton was a blowhard, who got by on bluff and bravado.
Oh and you're no military strategist either.
And i dont think or know if we could have gone to Moscow. I am simply stating in my opinion the theory the Soviets would steamroll the Western allies is misguided. We had larger economies, a nearly untapped manpower reserve, and our homefront was untouched.
Since a lot of U.S. and Western Ally forces were tied up in the Pacific on V-E Day, the Soviets would have gained a lot of territory very quickly. There was a very real chance that they could have taken most, if not all, of the European mainland before we could reallocate forces, and then that would allow Japan time to work out a deal with the Soviets to work with them(not certain given their history with each other, but possible). If Japan had access to Soviet resources, the Pacific theater would be much different and would hamper our ability to fight in Europe.
Here's a map of the position of Allied forces at the surrender of Germany and shows how we were very much out numbered by the U.S.S.R.
If numbers were the end all, Japan would have never taken any Chinese land.
Since a lot of U.S. and Western Ally forces were tied up in the Pacific on V-E Day, the Soviets would have gained a lot of territory very quickly. There was a very real chance that they could have taken most, if not all, of the European mainland before we could reallocate forces, and then that would allow Japan time to work out a deal with the Soviets to work with them(not certain given their history with each other, but possible). If Japan had access to Soviet resources, the Pacific theater would be much different and would hamper our ability to fight in Europe.
Here's a map of the position of Allied forces at the surrender of Germany and shows how we were very much out numbered by the U.S.S.R.
They couldnt get to Berlin quickly or without significant loss of men and material. Why do you believe they would get to the channel against a better equipped, better supplied, and better trained opponent quickly?
The reason it took the Soviets so long to go from Stalingrad to Berlin was in a large portion due to the landscape, the scorched Earth policy both they and the Germans used, and that most of Germany's focus was still facing east. As for material losses, even high, their war manufacturing(based east of the Urals and out of range of Allied bombers due to no escort fighter able to travel that far and the surprisingly effectiveness of Soviet aircraft and air defense) was hitting a high point and likely would have been able to keep up. They also had more access to captured German materials and research that would have only helped.
I'm not of mind to say that they would have definitely overrun Europe(and any statement alluding to that point was poor choice of words on my part) but that our ability to hold off their advanced if war continued is far from certain.
I cannot believe even you think what you just typed is true. Admit it, you know the above phrase is simply not true.
Correct, which is why I side WITH a great general's views. At least you now admit your opinions on military strategy should not be listened to.
I cannot believe even you think what you just typed is true. Admit it, you know the above phrase is simply not true.
Correct, which is why I side WITH a great general's views. At least you now admit your opinions on military strategy should not be listened to.
That's due to the Chinese not having a modernized army and the infighting(they only started working together once Japan had a foothold). Soviets had a united government and equipment that was just as effective as ours. The best advantage we had was training(this was pre-Trinity testing), but that can be overcome with pure numbers as Korea showed.
I think that it would've been a good idea for the U.S. gov to have never gotten involved in WWII. That would've been the only way to prevent the Cold War and Communism.
To answer your question... if it had gone as you mentioned, then the only downsides would've been a few Americans dying compared to the many who died in Vietnam. However, the NWO wouldn't let Patton do what may have been best.
Uh, what? Stalin killed anyone who he didn't like. I don't call that properly united. Modernized? They were supplied with airplanes that were not up to standards with ours. Better, we would likely have mobilized the Germans into the offensive.
They couldnt get to Berlin quickly or without significant loss of men and material. Why do you believe they would get to the channel against a better equipped, better supplied, and better trained opponent quickly?
thats false. the Russians were highly trained and very well equipped. they took on Germany and won. Would they make it to the channel? no, for one of the reasons the Nazis didnt make it to Moscow ant that is supply lines.
You misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying compared to German troops the allies were better equipped, better trained, and better supplied. The Soviets had a hard enough time vs the depleted Germans. Why would anybody think they would perform that much better against a tougher opponent?
Then post the forums, are does that require too much bravery?
Interesting info....but that would take a lot of redeployment of forces to create and man airfields, and a lot of logistical hassles to supply fuel and weapons. I vaguely remember reading about the Air Corps flying "the Hump" to deliver supplies to China, and what an incredible logistical pain it was. Don't remember any efficiency numbers though.
But like you said, the US was tired of war, and the people and government would not have supported this massive undertaking (not just this, but the whole war on the USSR). To wage any type of war on the USSR would have to be an all-out effort, and no one would want that.
thats false. the Russians were highly trained and very well equipped. they took on Germany and won. Would they make it to the channel? no, for one of the reasons the Nazis didnt make it to Moscow ant that is supply lines.
You are really good at ignoring facts...
Our war machine was peaking at that time. In economic terms the Allies(Britina + United States) were roughly 5 times the economic output of the Soviet Union. As for factories to the east of the Urals. Empircal evidence shows strategic bombing didnt have that much affect on the German war machine. Their economic output increased each year until 45 when we finally started physically taking their factories. Thus I dont think it would have much effect on the Soviets even if we could hit them.
What did hurt the Germans was our ability on a tactical level to cut off their ability to move troops and supplies during the day. Our aircraft production dwarfed the Soviets in terms of numbers and quality. On the ground our advantage in trucks was lopsided. And this was a major advantage we had over the Germans. The Germans for being portrayed as being mechanized were largely stuck to using horses for moving supplies in heer units. The Soviets didnt produce as many trucks during the war. Many they had were sent from our factories. If they dont build trucks they would be at a similar disadvantage as the Germans.
Then there were C&C issues with NKVD and political officers interfering on the ground. you would have a Germany military that could be reequipped, their economy used to fuel the war, French forces + economy ready. The populations ready to stop a Soviet advance. I just think the idea of them curb stomping us is over the top. They also had supply issues and it was a reason they couldnt curb stomp the Germans.
Anyways I enjoy these debates so if I come off as harsh I apologize. It is a fun what if scenario that thankfully never happened. Though I still contend us letting Eastern Europe fall under the communists is a black eye on the war. I also believe Patton understood the ramifications of us rolling over on Eastern Europe. He was simply stating that we have the men and materials here right now. Lets finish this now instead of letting it drag on forever.
Our war machine was peaking at that time. In economic terms the Allies(Britina + United States) were roughly 5 times the economic output of the Soviet Union. As for factories to the east of the Urals. Empircal evidence shows strategic bombing didnt have that much affect on the German war machine. Their economic output increased each year until 45 when we finally started physically taking their factories. Thus I dont think it would have much effect on the Soviets even if we could hit them.
What did hurt the Germans was our ability on a tactical level to cut off their ability to move troops and supplies during the day. Our aircraft production dwarfed the Soviets in terms of numbers and quality. On the ground our advantage in trucks was lopsided. And this was a major advantage we had over the Germans. The Germans for being portrayed as being mechanized were largely stuck to using horses for moving supplies in heer units. The Soviets didnt produce as many trucks during the war. Many they had were sent from our factories. If they dont build trucks they would be at a similar disadvantage as the Germans.
Then there were C&C issues with NKVD and political officers interfering on the ground. you would have a Germany military that could be reequipped, their economy used to fuel the war, French forces + economy ready. The populations ready to stop a Soviet advance. I just think the idea of them curb stomping us is over the top. They also had supply issues and it was a reason they couldnt curb stomp the Germans.
Anyways I enjoy these debates so if I come off as harsh I apologize. It is a fun what if scenario that thankfully never happened. Though I still contend us letting Eastern Europe fall under the communists is a black eye on the war. I also believe Patton understood the ramifications of us rolling over on Eastern Europe. He was simply stating that we have the men and materials here right now. Lets finish this now instead of letting it drag on forever.
You refuse to show any facts, but instead keep repeating your lies. I know, you are not brave enough to actually post them, right? Show some spine, post these boards you keep droning on an on about. Prove me wrong, prove you have some backbone.