How will AMD answer the challenge posed by Haswell?

[meloz]

I have just read the excellent article by Anand: Intel's Haswell Architecture Analyzed: Building a New PC and a New Intel

As I read through the article about all these things Intel was doing to improve their future processors, one thought kept recurring in the mind: what will be AMD's answer to this change? How will they respond to that feature?

My personal feeling is that with Haswell Intel might pull a lead on the CPU side AMD which might never reclaim.

AMDs APU might still have the 'overall' edge on the iGPU side, but their lead in TDP limited mobile SKUs might be all but eroded. As it is, against Ivy Bridge their lead in mobile iGPUs is much smaller than on desktop, all down to TDP. With Haswell, in the 15 watt arena Intel might even pull ahead on the iGPU side.

Is there anything on the AMD roadmap that can keep them in contention? Or will they play the price game: focus exclusively on low cost (sub-$100) APUs to gather volume and survive?

How do you see AMD reacting to and survive Haswell?

 

[ShintaiDK]

My personal feeling is that with Haswell Intel might pull a lead on the CPU side AMD which might never reclaim.

That already happend back in 2006.

Its all about money basicly. AMD will slowly pass the way as VIA.

 

[Abwx]

AMD will slowly pass the way as VIA.

As insightfull as your posts on A10.

So according to you the AMD s staff s business plan is to simply
follow VIA s route ?....

More seriously , since Haswell is expected for 2013
they will simply put Steamroller as the contender.

 

[Rvenger]

That already happend back in 2006.

Its all about money basicly. AMD will slowly pass the way as VIA.

I guess its obvious that you hope that happens. I am tired of these types of posts.

 

[BrightCandle]

AMD is more or less competitive in the sense that it plays in a similar space of performance when compared to the processors produced by the rest of industry. But they are getting squeezed pretty hard by Intel's fabs and massive design budget. But then Intel is getting squeezed by ARM. You have to remember Intel doesn't ship anywhere near as many CPUs as the likes of ARM (once you take into account the companies that buy, modify and sell the design). In the CPU world Intel is a niche player as well, AMD is a niche in that niche.

 

[ShintaiDK]

As insightfull as your posts on A10.

So according to you the AMD s staff s business plan is to simply
follow VIA s route ?....

Its all about resources and an upwards spiralling cost factor for designs. Can you tell me AMDs revenue, AMDs R&D and Intels R&D?

Then you got your answer.

I guess its obvious that you hope that happens. I am tired of these types of posts.

So you rather live in a dream thats flowered with whatever you wish? Should I say that sure, 1 AMD Ph.D will perform the same as 5 or 10 Intel Ph.Ds with 5 to 10x more resources at their disposal? Why not cheer for VIA then? Why should AMD be the exception?

 

[Rvenger]

So you rather live in a dream thats flowered with whatever you wish? Should I say that sure, 1 AMD Ph.D will perform the same as 5 or 10 Intel Ph.Ds with 5 to 10x more resources at their disposal? Why not cheer for VIA then? Why should AMD be the exception?

I only hope they survive the CPU market, that is all. I think they have put so many resources to secure the graphics division and the CPU division just got the short end of the stick. It would just be nice for them to catch a break and I think they did well with Trinity IMO, they just need to push harder with Steamroller.

 

[ShintaiDK]

AMD is more or less competitive in the sense that it plays in a similar space of performance when compared to the processors produced by the rest of industry. But they are getting squeezed pretty hard by Intel's fabs and massive design budget. But then Intel is getting squeezed by ARM. You have to remember Intel doesn't ship anywhere near as many CPUs as the likes of ARM (once you take into account the companies that buy, modify and sell the design). In the CPU world Intel is a niche player as well, AMD is a niche in that niche.

The pressure might not be as big as you think.

 

[meloz]

But then Intel is getting squeezed by ARM. You have to remember Intel doesn't ship anywhere near as many CPUs as the likes of ARM (once you take into account the companies that buy, modify and sell the design). In the CPU world Intel is a niche player as well, AMD is a niche in that niche.

For sure a lot of ARM processors are built and sold every year, but most of those a low cost (and extremely low margin) $10-50 products. Smartphone/tablet SoCs using ARM are cheaper than most Intel processors. In terms of revenue and profits ARM are nowhere near Intel.

IMO revenue and profits should be used to judge the 'size' of rivals, not the amount of products or designs sold. After all it is only money that can be used to further R&D, expand facilities and so on.

 

[Ajay]

That already happend back in 2006.

Its all about money basicly. AMD will slowly pass the way as VIA.

Apple was dying, until SJ and a few key employees from NeXT turned it around. AMD seems to be trying to turn things around. Reed is no Steve Jobs, but he is better focused and more disciplined than any CEO AMD has had.

The owners of GF must be pumping allot of $$s into R&D, since GF is accelerating it time table. And even if GF fails, AMD has foundry choice now.

Yes, time is running out for AMD, but it's not a forgone conclusion. It's a likely conclusion that they'll spin off some parts and then descend into obscurity, but not a forgone one.

What can I say, I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

 

[Rvenger]

Yes, time is running out for AMD, but it's not a forgone conclusion. It's a likely conclusion that they'll spin off some parts and then descend into obscurity, but not a forgone one.

What can I say, I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

Kind of like what happened to all of the big name electronics brands such as Philips, Magnavox, RCA and Sylvania?

 

[Abwx]

IMO revenue and profits should be used to judge the 'size' of rivals, not the amount of products or designs sold. After all it is only money that can be used to further R&D, expand facilities and so on.

They dont have to expand facilities that they own no more ,
but their supplier need big volumes as an incentive to further
develloppe the processes AMD is in need of.

As for RD surely that their saving grace if ever there is one
is what they started to do with bulldozer , using automated
design tools wich will undoubtly demultipliate their limited
ingeenering ressources once they are used at full scale in
the design process.

 

[Phynaz]

How do you see AMD reacting to and survive Haswell?

Simple, they can't.

AMD revenue: $6.3B
Intel R&D: $8.3B

Intel's R&D budget is 30% greater than AMD's revenue. AMD cannot compete with that.

That's why you don't see AMD doing platform level stuff, such as taking what used to be analog circuits and making them digital (Intel's presentation on making a digital WiFi radio).

 

[Phynaz]

automated design tools wich will undoubtly demultipliate their limited
ingeenering ressources

Wut?

 

[Abwx]

Simple, they can't.

AMD revenue: $6.3B
Intel R&D: $8.3B

Intel R&D budget is 30% greater than AMD's revenue. AMD cannot compete with that.

it's why you don't see AMD doing platform level stuff, such as taking what used to be analog circuits and making them digital (Intel's presentation on making a digital WiFi radio).

That s right but in the case of intel this RD number include
more fields than simply X86 design.

Neverless , it make no doubt that the two things are of completely
different sizes.

 

[Abwx]

Wut?

the chip designer decided to abandon practice of hand-crafting various performance-critical parts of its chips and rely completely on automatic tools. While usage of tools that automatically implement certain technologies into silicon speeds up the design process, they cannot ensure maximum performance and efficiency.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/di...x_AMD_Engineer_Explains_Bulldozer_Fiasco.html

 

[Phynaz]

That's not what the "Wut?" was for.

 

[Abwx]

That's not what the "Wut?" was for.

Automated design tools that will undoubtly increase
their engeeners productivity by quite a big margin....

Is it easier to understand ?...

 

[Borkil]

Automated design tools that will undoubtly increase
their engeeners productivity by quite a big margin....

Is it easier to understand ?...

His "wut" was about your spelling/grammar. The sentence did not make any sense. I think AMD will focus on improving the cpu. I think improving their cpu performance will be a good counter.

 

[AtenRa]

I have just read the excellent article by Anand: Intel's Haswell Architecture Analyzed: Building a New PC and a New Intel

As I read through the article about all these things Intel was doing to improve their future processors, one thought kept recurring in the mind: what will be AMD's answer to this change? How will they respond to that feature?

AMD's Steamroller Detailed: 3rd Generation Bulldozer Core

AMDs APU might still have the 'overall' edge on the iGPU side, but their lead in TDP limited mobile SKUs might be all but eroded. As it is, against Ivy Bridge their lead in mobile iGPUs is much smaller than on desktop, all down to TDP. With Haswell, in the 15 watt arena Intel might even pull ahead on the iGPU side.

Next Gen AMDs APU (Kaveri) will be produced at 28nm paired with GNC Graphics coming from HD7xxx series of GPUs.

Is there anything on the AMD roadmap that can keep them in contention? Or will they play the price game: focus exclusively on low cost (sub-$100) APUs to gather volume and survive?

How do you see AMD reacting to and survive Haswell?

SteamRoller for Desktop/Server and Kaveri for the APU market.

 

[Hubb1e]

Something I noticed from Intel's slides were that Desktop Haswell will only come with GT2 graphics. The GT3 graphics that everyone says will catch up with Trinity won't be available on the desktop. Intel apparently doesn't buy into the AMD idea that a destop iGPU is worth anything.

 

[CHADBOGA]

Something I noticed from Intel's slides were that Desktop Haswell will only come with GT2 graphics. The GT3 graphics that everyone says will catch up with Trinity won't be available on the desktop. Intel apparently doesn't buy into the AMD idea that a destop iGPU is worth anything.

As we speak, unless you live in dire poverty, it isn't.

Perhaps that will change in time, but for the foreseeable future, forget it.

 

[Phynaz]

Automated design tools that will undoubtly increase
their engeeners productivity by quite a big margin....

How is this an advantage to AMD? Is this something Intel doesn't have access to?

 

[Ajay]

How is this an advantage to AMD? Is this something Intel doesn't have access to?

Better EDA tools will have a larger affect (% wise) on smaller teams teams than larger ones. Typical problem of diminishing returns. But Intel's larger team still have allot more muscle than AMD's. AMD succeeded in taking on Intel once already (though Hector RuinsAll didn't capitalize on it). They can do it again - God alone knows if they will.

 

[Ajay]

Something I noticed from Intel's slides were that Desktop Haswell will only come with GT2 graphics. The GT3 graphics that everyone says will catch up with Trinity won't be available on the desktop. Intel apparently doesn't buy into the AMD idea that a destop iGPU is worth anything.

I wonder if this will make a difference in "2nd" world nations? India and China are a HUGE market with growing middle classes. Then again, at times it has seemed like AMD couldn't sell water in the desert.