How well are we prepared to face what we may actually be facing?

[AnitaPeterson]

My two cents:

1) Peterson is an amazing example of confirmation bias, precisely because he's well-educated and fluent AND he's on an ideological war path. Basically, the guy is in many respects like a modern-day Athenian Sophist: he can argue about anything and is not shy of distorting truth and facts, when it serves his purposes. Unlike Trump, he has a foundation to do so - which makes him much more dangerous from an intellectual point of view. To paraphrase Jefferson, truth itself becomes suspect through association with these kind of people.

2) Ideology makes strange bedfellows. Moonbeam's use of a Jordan Peterson video in order to make a narrow point about human nature, while serenely ignoring the context and value of the information itself was... illuminating.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Uh Germany was totally boned by the end of 1941 when the US entered the war, Barbarossa stalled short of its objectives with the Russians starting to reverse them, and the Blitz failed to make the British roll over complete with the neutering of the Luftwaffe as an effective force. Granted Hitler didn't see it that way but the facts are the facts. No amount of slave labor would have changed the ultimate outcome.

The only real question was what would it cost.

I'm somewhat ignorant of this period, but it was my understanding that Hitler expected the British to sue for peace. So his goal was to do a land grab in Europe, get the Brits to sue for peace, and he'd be able to keep the status quo. (which probably included killing the jews in whatever territory he had)

 

[Moonbeam]

If there are Nazis running rampant in America, then I take it the desired response is to NOT live with them. Not maintain a civil society with them in it. Instead, I believe you raise this topic to declare a need to kill said Nazis. Am I correct in the premise?



There is a distinction between some evil leader or propagandist, and a regular joe who would vote Democrat but feels hurt and betrayed and starts listening to said propaganda of how "others" are to blame.

Somebody said that for evil to Triumph all that is needed is for good men to do nothing. Because the killing of others is always justified as required as a matter of self defense the only time I could justify killing would by if I were under an obvious and unambiguous attack. My expectations of that are not very high

The problem I have is with what I judge to be the level of human consciousness, namely the lack of awareness that Hitler and Trump are only dangerous because they reside within. I believe the explanations we tell ourselves as to the origin and cause of evil are simpleminded and naive. We basically attribute evil as fundamental to our nature. It all comes down to who we are. In short, all of human psychological knowledge as it is commonly understood comes down to the observation of people as they are with no knowledge at all, or very very rarely, as to what we can become. All of this arises out of human motivation not to feel the truth, that the origin of human evil is because we believe it exists and is who we really are, personally. This belief is the false self the ego a psychological structure build on protecting a person from the pain of being made to feel worthless as a child. If I wanted to kill Hitler I would have to kill myself, or at least my ego. And where would I be without that. I learned all this from a man who had a padded cell available to explore that.

The distinction you draw is only one of degree, in my opinion. Clearly many here believe I find favor with a Nazi sympathizer. I believe that the more self aware you become the more others will see you as evil. You manifest knowledge they fear, how much they hate themselves. They wind up accusing you of being what you have already seen you are.

 

[Gardener]

I've read what you said 3 times and don't understand it, my apologies.

Humans are basically good, but they are weak as individuals and easily misled unless they are equipped with education and exposure to different ideas and cultures. The end result is an inward-looking fear of the world, hatred of self, superstition, and darkness.

But that isn't where anyone starts out as a child. Curiosity, empathy, natural sense of fairness, etc.

Good environment = good people. Skinner nailed the concept 50+ years ago.

 

[K1052]

I'm somewhat ignorant of this period, but it was my understanding that Hitler expected the British to sue for peace. So his goal was to do a land grab in Europe, get the Brits to sue for peace, and he'd be able to keep the status quo. (which probably included killing the jews in whatever territory he had)

Sure, this was his expectation but it didn't pan out that way.

 

[Moonbeam]

My two cents:

1) Peterson is an amazing example of confirmation bias, precisely because he's well-educated and fluent AND he's on an ideological war path. Basically, the guy is in many respects like a modern-day Athenian Sophist: he can argue about anything and is not shy of distorting truth and facts, when it serves his purposes. Unlike Trump, he has a foundation to do so - which makes him much more dangerous from an intellectual point of view. To paraphrase Jefferson, truth itself becomes suspect through association with these kind of people.

2) Ideology makes strange bedfellows. Moonbeam's use of a Jordan Peterson video in order to make a narrow point about human nature, while serenely ignoring the context and value of the information itself was... illuminating.

I welcome your suspicions. For me the point you refer to as narrow is not diminished by being narrow nor is the context in which it was presented of much importance. I knew when I posted that what I would consider the meat would devolve into a conversation about Peterson, someone who I occasionally see YouTubes about on the internet. I thought that would make a nice backdrop to why and how we avoid seeing the evil in Hitler. I believe that all the resistances I see displayed here to the notion that the enemy is within I had myself many moons ago and that only for reasons I can't figure out, I personally could not deny or avoid. I believe that what I know, what I had to unlearn, my state of ignorance cost me dearly. What I fought to the death to avoid I am now very glad I failed to achieve.

Some time in our past we had some sort of disagreement, I don't remember about what, but I do know that it was over something you believe that I once probably also believed and no longer can. I know that whatever it was, what I would perhaps call a delusion you have I can't share, it made me personally sad as I believe you were offended. I can't find better words than that I like the content and character of the posts by poster AnitaPeterson.

 

[Moonbeam]

I've read what you said 3 times and don't understand it, my apologies.

Humans are basically good, but they are weak as individuals and easily misled unless they are equipped with education and exposure to different ideas and cultures. The end result is an inward-looking fear of the world, hatred of self, superstition, and darkness.

But that isn't where anyone starts out as a child. Curiosity, empathy, natural sense of fairness, etc.

Good environment = good people. Skinner nailed the concept 50+ years ago.

I think Skinner was much too mechanical in his approach. It isn't that people are made good by good environment but rather that a good environment is required for our innate goodness not to be destroyed by put down and exposure to hatred.

 

[Moonbeam]

I continue to be amazed at your failure to see Jordan Peterson for the closet Nazi sympathizer that he so obviously is.

My knowledge of Jordan Peterson is randomly infrequent and casual. I may not have seen what you have. I may also be stupid, but my reaction to what I have watched of him to have evoked a very different reaction that what I read is that of other people. I am either not seeing the same stuff or I or others may be wrong. Perhaps you have something video of his that clearly demonstrates what you mean. I thought too that in the video I linked Peterson said his interpretation could be wrong. At any rate, your comment about human nature being what it is since we came down from the trees, is wrong in my opinion. It is what it is since dualistic thinking became possible with the invention of language. So you may be right about antiquity but not about cause in my opinion.

 

[Vic]

Sure, this was his expectation but it didn't pan out that way.

For a great many people, it seems to very important to be able to believe that evil must be the result of calculating masterminds, instead of just ignorant bullies who keep doubling down on being wrong even long after the consequences of their errors are made apparent.
And IMO we should not glamorize evil, because it is not glamorous. Evil is common.

 

[K1052]

For a great many people, it seems to very important to be able to believe that evil must be the result of calculating masterminds, instead of just ignorant bullies who keep doubling down on being wrong even long after the consequences of their errors are made apparent.
And IMO we should not glamorize evil, because it is not glamorous. Evil is common.

Basically yeah. Hitler definitely was evil but made a simply astounding series of moronic decisions that very much helped lead Germany to a cataclysmic defeat. I'll take stupid evil over smart evil any day of the week.

 

[Vic]

My knowledge of Jordan Peterson is randomly infrequent and casual. I may not have seen what you have. I may also be stupid, but my reaction to what I have watched of him to have evoked a very different reaction that what I read is that of other people. I am either not seeing the same stuff or I or others may be wrong. Perhaps you have something video of his that clearly demonstrates what you mean. I thought too that in the video I linked Peterson said his interpretation could be wrong. At any rate, your comment about human nature being what it is since we came down from the trees, is wrong in my opinion. It is what it is since dualistic thinking became possible with the invention of language. So you may be right about antiquity but not about cause in my opinion.

IIRC, this is not your first thread about Jordan Peterson. However, I disagree with his use of Nazi propaganda terms like 'cultural marxism,' and I disagree with his glamorization of Nazis, even while calling them evil.
Because deifying Hitler and the Nazis, even as masterminds of mayhem or Satan or the Devil, will only lead people to assume that it couldn't happen again.
Which is dangerous because it will, unless we guard ourselves against it. And that begins with recognizing that genocide has in fact been the norm throughout all of human history and even socially acceptable practice, provided your side won the war too.
Evolution drives animals to compete within their species, even violently, and humans are no different, except that we have the brains to recognize our evolutionary impulses and go against them, should we choose to be more than just animals.

 

[Vic]

Basically yeah. Hitler definitely was evil but made a simply astounding series of moronic decisions that very much helped lead Germany to a cataclysmic defeat. I'll take stupid evil over smart evil any day of the week.

I won't say that the Nazis were stupid per se, just that they were unfortunately common and natural. And that what they did is what most other murderous tyrants have done throughout history.
They just did it at a scale large enough to generate public outrage, at a time when technology finally made that possible, and they lost the war.
But other than that, there were at least 2 other genocides being independently conducted during WWII, there's been a few since, and there's at least 1 going on right now.
I feel like we should be talking about that rather the Nazis being some kind of masterminds of mayhem and evil.

 

[Ajay]

I'm somewhat ignorant of this period, but it was my understanding that Hitler expected the British to sue for peace. So his goal was to do a land grab in Europe, get the Brits to sue for peace, and he'd be able to keep the status quo. (which probably included killing the jews in whatever territory he had)

Well, if Hitler wasn't so incompetent and in need of revenge against his many enemies (France, for example), He may have been able to hold on to central Europe. He pushed into France for strategic reasons and out of a need for personal revenge.

From Wikipedia:

Main article: Armistice with France (Second Compiègne)
On 21 June 1940, near Compiègne in France, Hitler (hand on hip) staring at Marshal Foch's statue before starting the negotiations for the armistice, to be signed the next day by Keitel, Hitler being absent. The Glade of the Armistice was soon destroyed together with all commemorative monuments (except Foch's statue) by the Germans.
Discouraged by his cabinet's hostile reaction to a British proposal for a Franco-British union to avoid defeat and believing that his ministers no longer supported him, Reynaud resigned on 16 June. He was succeeded by Pétain, who delivered a radio address to the French people announcing his intention to ask for an armistice with Germany. When Hitler received word from the French government that they wished to negotiate an armistice, he selected the Forest of Compiègne as the site for the negotiations.[214] Compiègne had been the site of the 1918 Armistice, which ended the First World War with a humiliating defeat for Germany; Hitler viewed the choice of location as a supreme moment of revenge for Germany over France.[215]

On 21 June 1940, Hitler visited the site to start the negotiations, which took place in the same railway carriage in which the 1918 Armistice was signed. It had just been removed from a museum building and placed on the spot where it was located in 1918. Hitler sat in the same chair in which Marshal Ferdinand Foch had sat when he faced the defeated German representatives.[216] After listening to the reading of the preamble, Hitler left the carriage in a calculated gesture of disdain for the French delegates and negotiations were turned over to Wilhelm Keitel, the Chief of Staff of OKW. The armistice was signed on the next day at 18:36 (French time), by General Keitel for Germany and Huntziger for France. The armistice and cease-fire went into effect two days and six hours later, at 00:35 on 25 June, once the Franco-Italian Armistice had also been signed, at 18:35 on 24 June, near Rome.[217]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFrieser2005317-228


Germany did have the power to maintain control over France for sometime if he stopped there, thanks to the collapse of the French defense and the accommodation of Vichy France. But he just couldn't resist, and kept expanding. Such was the defect of his intellect.

There are many books, documentaries, talks by WWII historians, etc. That go into much more detail than I have the time or will to explain. Feel free to find one. I don't have a go to documentary off hand to send you to. My view of the war isn't held by everyone, but is the view that made the most sense to me from my past armature research. There are many, many finer nuances.

 

[Ajay]

IIRC, this is not your first thread about Jordan Peterson

I do not find Peterson to be as offensive as many. I think he's a guy with some interesting ideas that many on the far right embraced with gusto - hence making him an object derision. His use of Judeo-Christian themes in explaining his viewpoints obviously annoys many intellectuals. Of course his is self promoting, he has books to sell! Anyway, it's not like he is Ben Shapiro.

 

[Moonbeam]

For a great many people, it seems to very important to be able to believe that evil must be the result of calculating masterminds, instead of just ignorant bullies who keep doubling down on being wrong even long after the consequences of their errors are made apparent.
And IMO we should not glamorize evil, because it is not glamorous. Evil is common.

I believe this is a dualistic view of the nature of evil. As soon as one proposes that too much can be made of evil the reality is created that the danger of evil will be underestimated. Opinions regarding how much or how little attention being should be paid to evil all depend on the notion that evil is real. But that is what makes evil real, the belief that it exists. There is no such thing as evil except the consequences of belief it is real. The belief in evil is the product of conditioning that becomes an unconscious assumption that good and evil are real. You can't consciously reject the existence of something you are unaware you falsely and unconsciously believe in. What we accept unconsciously as the truth are effectively sacred beliefs. To lose faith in them is a form of dying, a spiritual death at the heart of religion and mysticism.

The belief that what we hold sacred is what saves us from evil is the most dangerous thing about human existence. It means we are all fearful fanatics. It is very hard to stop believing in things but a step forward not to put any faith in believing. The enemy is within us.

 

[Moonbeam]

I do not find Peterson to be as offensive as many. I think he's a guy with some interesting ideas that many on the far right embraced with gusto - hence making him an object derision. His use of Judeo-Christian themes in explaining his viewpoints obviously annoys many intellectuals. Of course his is self promoting, he has books to sell! Anyway, it's not like he is Ben Shapiro.

I believe that like myself he sees people as the products of mechanical forces. This means that when he looks at our growing bright young Nazi youth movement, he feel sadness at the tragedy of their situation. So he laid out some rules to follow to improve alienated young men's self contempt, things like making your bead. I see all those rules as ways to pull fucked up men back from the edge. He also takes issues with those who despise them, again a belief that they are evil. But they are only evil because they believe evil exists, which they are because they believe it. But they would believe it less if they followed Peterson who has sympathy for their plight and a plan to build their sense of self worth. One can react with hate to people full of hate or pity them for their fucked up inner state. That doesn't make a sympathetic person a Nazi. But you have to be tremendously careful about the people you help because they will resent the fact they need it, and you will also upset people who want to justify their hatred back at them.

 

[Jaskalas]

Are you suggesting that humanity has no right to self-defense against the Nazis who have sworn to kill everyone they've determined is 'unclean' or 'unfit?'

Your words suggest that it is you who has taken this vow. Especially in light of Kenosha.

 

[Jaskalas]

In the wake of September 11th, 2001, I too wanted to see a threat purged. Of course I was a lot younger and a lot more naive about things.

Over time those thoughts of collective punishment were shown for what they were. I became more interested in having us make peace. To leave an open hand for Muslims to form constructive and positive attachments with us, where a degree of mutual purpose, if not kinship, could be achieved. This is, of course, with a great deal of hope that we could "corrupt" them away from an already established identity, away from their association with violent groups. We could appeal to their better nature, as human beings. Not the worst offenders, but the average person, the working parents who want a future for their children. Instead of a suicide vest or other destructive end.

The olive branch has ever become my replacement, my atonement, for the thoughts I had following 911. To reduce one's enemy by making yourself more appealing to their people. Not to offer one's own head, but to recruit them to "our" side. To convince enough of them to put down the sword, as to make the remainder ineffective.

Using the logic some posters here have used, I would be a Muslim Terrorist for NOT wanting to kill them all. After all, if we "Punch" Nazis, then we surely "Punch" Muslims too. Of course anyone who doesn't want them "Punched" is just a traitor who belongs to the enemy. Peace needs to be "Punched" too. Nothing but calls for violence from the modern American "Left". Isn't that right @Vic ? That is the exact meaning of your god damn post.


I digress. @Moonbeam you mentioned distinctions and I would speak to that. Not all who follow a group belong to it for the same reason. Not all are hardcore or dedicated. Some merely saw no better option. No one else to offer them an olive branch. No one to give them a reasonable choice. If all one sees is a rioting mob coming for your head, then naturally one is going to take up arms. For no other cause than it is the only path available.

Now that's an extreme example. Obviously voters in 2016 were not in that situation, but they were in an economic one. And no one showed them an olive branch for their woes. Hell, everyone seems to deride Republican voters as rich and sitting pretty. No reason in the world to vote the way they did except for pure evil. As if each and every single one of them were Nazis. Do "Democrats" cheer for collective punishment now?

Sure sounds like it. So very disappointing to see so many take my place, and paint a target on all the "others". For it was largely they who convinced me to seek out the distinctions and the olive branch. Now they have burned down the tree and see only Nazis. I wish America had a party that did not wantonly seek to murder the other.

 

[pmv]

Basically yeah. Hitler definitely was evil but made a simply astounding series of moronic decisions that very much helped lead Germany to a cataclysmic defeat. I'll take stupid evil over smart evil any day of the week.

Hitler's problem, I think, was he had great early success. To begin with he got lucky or his natural instincts proved correct. He got things right by being bold when his generals were far more cautious. Then he got carried away with his belief in his own brilliance and continued to meddle relentlessly, over-riding his generals' views, with increasingly disastrous results over the course of the war.

The exact opposite seemed to be the case for Stalin. He started off getting everything disastrously wrong, and consequently lost much of his belief in himself, with the result that he didn't interfere with strategic choices during the rest of the war in the same way.

I'm sure there's more to it than that, but that seems to me to be a big part of what happened. Also seems to me that the war was pretty much lost for Germany when they failed to take Moscow by the winter of '41. Perhaps the internal logic of Nazism and Hitler's outlook meant it was always going to crash-and-burn.

 

[dank69]

...

Using the logic some posters here have used, I would be a Muslim Terrorist for NOT wanting to kill them all. After all, if we "Punch" Nazis, then we surely "Punch" Muslims too. ...

No. Logic fail.

 

[ch33zw1z]

No. Logic fail.

Guns and Jesus should get punched too tho.

 

[Ajay]

I believe that like myself he sees people as the products of mechanical forces. This means that when he looks at our growing bright young Nazi youth movement, he feel sadness at the tragedy of their situation. So he laid out some rules to follow to improve alienated young men's self contempt, things like making your bead. I see all those rules as ways to pull fucked up men back from the edge. He also takes issues with those who despise them, again a belief that they are evil. But they are only evil because they believe evil exists, which they are because they believe it. But they would believe it less if they followed Peterson who has sympathy for their plight and a plan to build their sense of self worth. One can react with hate to people full of hate or pity them for their fucked up inner state. That doesn't make a sympathetic person a Nazi. But you have to be tremendously careful about the people you help because they will resent the fact they need it, and you will also upset people who want to justify their hatred back at them.

That understanding, that up improving a person's self esteem and self perception is key to creating healthy persons is critical. I knew a catholic mystic who had the gift of reading hearts. After receiving that gift, she was driven to go out into the streets to the outcasts of society - in particular, prostitutes. She told me that the root of almost every sin she saw was in the brokenness off these 'less desirables'. This, of course, is only an anecdote. But I have become convinced from my own involvement in ministries to the poor and people who never seem to 'heal' that it is the truth. Self hate and shame are almost ridiculously damaging to people whose subconscious are most affected. Abuse, particularly sexual, and willful neglect, in children, seem to be key drivers for brokenness. Curiously, some people have a level of resiliency that tends to protect them from being as wounded as others in similar circumstances. Obviously, given my faith, I believe in a real evil, but how that evil is ingested, takes root and made manifest is often through subconscious self-protective patterns created in response to harmful psychological experiences. Anyway, my 2 cents.

 

[Ajay]

Guns and Jesus should get punched too tho.

He, wait, Jesus was already punched! And worse.
So, it's fake pastors need to be punched! Those who preach the 'prosperity Gospel' are either confused or grifters.

 

[ch33zw1z]

He, wait, Jesus was already punched! And worse.
So, it's fake pastors need to be punched! Those who preach the 'prosperity Gospel' are either confused or grifters.

Fake pastors and people who are "guns and Jesus" above america, which is many.

 

[Moonbeam]

Perhaps the internal logic of Nazism and Hitler's outlook meant it was always going to crash-and-burn.

I think so and taking everything else with it. The fear that one is worthless, arising out of inculcated and unbearable feeling experiences in childhood deriving from the language of put downs that one already is, leaves behind the threat that the memory of what has happened can again be consciously experienced.

This in turn leads to the will to control, the elimination of anything that might be associated in any way that could stimulate any memory of traumatic events. This includes any deviation from the fictional substitute we erect as ego story, those sacred values we hide behind to provide phony self worth.

Thus, the different, the other, the non conforming must be eliminated and this is done via the unification into groups of similarly minded self haters. By this means the cunningly deranged like Hitler can lead millions to their deaths to prevent the awakening of bad memories.

We would rather die than remember because at the deepest level of our suppressed memories lie the experience of what it feels like to be made to feel worthless. No child can survive without suppressing those memories and depending on how horrific the traumatic experiences were, most of us function in the ‘normal’ range. The fears lie dormant but can always be triggered.

But at all times and everywhere there are some who heal, who reconnect with their original selves.