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How well are we prepared to face what we may actually be facing?

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
17,427
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Especially considering his background I think it portrays an astonishing lack of insight into the human psyche. On the other hand, given what we've seen of Jordan in the public media and his self promotion on various topics it is really not super surprising.

Just reflecting on recent events its obvious that the human psyche is capable of attaining almost any perspective or realty construct, one of our super gifts is that of rationalization, I dont see how its not a valid possibility that Adolf, in his heart, felt like his legacy and good deed for the world, taking one for the team, would be to rid the world of Jews on his way down.
Jordan is right that you cant *assume*, but it sounds to me like he *assumes* otherwise.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
74,112
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A pretty basic failure in his analysis is the idea that if Germany had devoted fewer resources to the Holocaust they could have won the war. By the point he’s talking about the war was already lost.

So really the choice was:

1) lose the war and not kill any Jews or:
2) lose the war more quickly and kill millions of Jews.

Jordan Peterson is a poseur.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
38,034
12,908
136
Uh Germany was totally boned by the end of 1941 when the US entered the war, Barbarossa stalled short of its objectives with the Russians starting to reverse them, and the Blitz failed to make the British roll over complete with the neutering of the Luftwaffe as an effective force. Granted Hitler didn't see it that way but the facts are the facts. No amount of slave labor would have changed the ultimate outcome.

The only real question was what would it cost.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,944
4,352
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Especially considering his background I think it portrays an astonishing lack of insight into the human psyche. On the other hand, given what we've seen of Jordan in the public media and his self promotion on various topics it is really not super surprising.

Just reflecting on recent events its obvious that the human psyche is capable of attaining almost any perspective or realty construct, one of our super gifts is that of rationalization, I dont see how its not a valid possibility that Adolf, in his heart, felt like his legacy and good deed for the world, taking one for the team, would be to rid the world of Jews on his way down.
Jordan is right that you cant *assume*, but it sounds to me like he *assumes* otherwise.
Do you think Trumps efforts to build the wall are motivated by a desire to save US citizens from rapists, drugs, and loss of jobs or is animated by the drive to and the pleasure of fucking over people he sees as inferiors, like separating kids from their mothers? Is he a patriot or a psychopath. How about the promise of a wild time at the capitol on Jan 6. Was that about a stolen election or the hoped for murder of the VP and Congress?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
74,112
26,488
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Do you think Trumps efforts to build the wall are motivated by a desire to save US citizens from rapists, drugs, and loss of jobs or is animated by the drive to and the pleasure of fucking over people he sees as inferiors, like separating kids from their mothers? Is he a patriot or a psychopath. How about the promise of a wild time at the capitol on Jan 6. Was that about a stolen election or the hoped for murder of the VP and Congress?
The wall was neither, as it didn’t really fuck over any immigrants. It was at most a minor inconvenience. The wall was about displaying contempt and dominance over people he viewed as inferior. The results were far less important than the perception.

I’m not sure why this guy is so hard for people to understand. He doesn’t care about results, he doesn’t care about what actually happens in the real world almost at all. What he cares about is how it looks and how people perceive it. For example with COVID if you asked him if 10 million would die but he would be revered as a hero vs. nobody dying and him being hated he would go with the 10 million dead, without question.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
30,045
15,204
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Do you think Trumps efforts to build the wall are motivated by a desire to save US citizens from rapists, drugs, and loss of jobs or is animated by the drive to and the pleasure of fucking over people he sees as inferiors, like separating kids from their mothers? Is he a patriot or a psychopath. How about the promise of a wild time at the capitol on Jan 6. Was that about a stolen election or the hoped for murder of the VP and Congress?
He just wants attention and to put his name on things and to make as much money off his name as possible no matter how many people it hurts.
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
5,917
890
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I’m not sure why this guy is so hard for people to understand. He doesn’t care about results, he doesn’t care about what actually happens in the real world almost at all. What he cares about is how it looks and how people perceive it.
Only fools that think he’s that macho man that wish they were. Driving oversized pickups in attempt to over compensate for what they are lacking
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,944
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A pretty basic failure in his analysis is the idea that if Germany had devoted fewer resources to the Holocaust they could have won the war. By the point he’s talking about the war was already lost.

So really the choice was:

1) lose the war and not kill any Jews or:
2) lose the war more quickly and kill millions of Jews.

Jordan Peterson is a poseur.
The analysis I saw was that Hitler was more evil than you think, because it was never about winning but destroying. The irrational treatment of the Jews, not optimally efficient for winning is only to illustrate that point. Perhaps the ‘you’ he was referring to IS you. Perhaps some prior conclusions about Peterson affected how you viewed his analysis. I don’t know but I can ask what you think he is posing for.

I posted this because I see the rising fascism on the right today as motivated by hatred, a death wish for Armageddon based on self hate that can succeed only if we deny we are all infected with it.

I am perfectly aware, however, that you have no idea how evil we are and there is little to nothing I can do about it. The issue will be Peterson or something else, anything else.

No offense. You is also me.
 

Roger Wilco

Golden Member
Mar 20, 2017
1,369
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The wall was neither, as it didn’t really fuck over any immigrants. It was at most a minor inconvenience. The wall was about displaying contempt and dominance over people he viewed as inferior. The results were far less important than the perception.

I’m not sure why this guy is so hard for people to understand. He doesn’t care about results, he doesn’t care about what actually happens in the real world almost at all. What he cares about is how it looks and how people perceive it. For example with COVID if you asked him if 10 million would die but he would be revered as a hero vs. nobody dying and him being hated he would go with the 10 million dead, without question.
This.

If giving brown people citizenship got him what he wanted, he would have made a bigger gold-plated statue of liberty in Mar-a-lago and ushered Cubans and whomever else into the country, bragging about being the bigliest immigration demigod their ever was and how the evil conservatives won't let America be great again.

Trump only cares about what personally affects him. He doesn't care about the proud boys, or black people, or his family, or anything else that doesn't directly affect his bullshit existence.

Hitler had an actual (and terrifying vision) of what he wanted the world to be. Trump is just a basic bitch grifter who naturally attracts idiots and psychopaths.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,944
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The wall was about displaying contempt and dominance over people he viewed as inferior. The results were far less important than the perception.
I thought that is what I said. I would say the understanding lies not so much the results but the intention.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,944
4,352
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This.

If giving brown people citizenship got him what he wanted, he would have made a bigger gold-plated statue of liberty in Mar-a-lago and ushered Cubans and whomever else into the country, bragging about being the bigliest immigration demigod their ever was and how the evil conservatives won't let America be great again.

Trump only cares about what personally affects him. He doesn't care about the proud boys, or black people, or his family, or anything else that doesn't directly affect his bullshit existence.

Hitler had an actual (and terrifying vision) of what he wanted the world to be. Trump is just a basic bitch grifter who naturally attracts idiots and psychopaths.
There can be a difference in the capacity of people even if the intentions are the same, I would think.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
74,112
26,488
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The analysis I saw was that Hitler was more evil than you think, because it was never about winning but destroying. The irrational treatment of the Jews, not optimally efficient for winning is only to illustrate that point. Perhaps the ‘you’ he was referring to IS you. Perhaps some prior conclusions about Peterson affected how you viewed his analysis. I don’t know but I can ask what you think he is posing for.
Right, and I’m saying his analysis was wrong and he seems to lack a basic understanding of the topic, which is par for the course for him. First and foremost, he vastly overestimates the resources expended by Germany on the Holocaust and the relative gains that would have been there from enslaving rather than killing. (Slave labor work was not efficient and was often subject to sabotage for obvious reasons)

The idea that Hitler didn’t want to win the war is stupidity and is obviously contradicted by the historical record. For example if destruction was his only goal why not enslave and exterminate other groups as well? If maximizing destruction was his real goal then sparing the French and Norwegians made no sense. If maximizing destruction was his goal why delay domestic consumption cuts for so long?

The easy and obvious answer is the one we have known all along - he had multiple goals and pursued them simultaneously. Peterson is using his ignorance of basic facts to try and spin some smart sounding narrative because he is a poseur.


I posted this because I see the rising fascism on the right today as motivated by hatred, a death wish for Armageddon based on self hate that can succeed only if we deny we are all infected with it.

I am perfectly aware, however, that you have no idea how evil we are and there is little to nothing I can do about it. The issue will be Peterson or something else, anything else.

No offense. You is also me.
Like I have said before you lack a basic understanding of how humans work. Really, what you’re doing is similar to Peterson, which is maybe why you were attracted to it.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
74,112
26,488
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I thought that is what I said. I would say the understanding lies not so much the results but the intention.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand Trump. The intention is not to fuck over immigrants either, at least that is not the primary intention. His goal is to display dominance and receive adulation and so the benefits or harms are largely irrelevant.

If he could have somehow achieved the same feelings of dominance and praise by sending every Hispanic kid to college he would have done that, for example. He’s a lifelong racist and sadist, but all of that pales in comparison to his need for feelings of importance and praise.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
17,427
6,990
136
Do you think Trumps efforts to build the wall are motivated by a desire to save US citizens from rapists, drugs, and loss of jobs or is animated by the drive to and the pleasure of fucking over people he sees as inferiors, like separating kids from their mothers? Is he a patriot or a psychopath. How about the promise of a wild time at the capitol on Jan 6. Was that about a stolen election or the hoped for murder of the VP and Congress?
I dont think Trump gives a rat ass about anyone but himself, I dont think he has a need to punish immigrants or anyone else unless they've ever cracked a joke about him.
You got to ask yourself what his motive is, is it to watch the suffering and rub one off like he did when he was a kid and "played with animals" or is it something else.

He loses me definitively with "evil" ... you have to realize that there is no evil, there is no good, there is only ape.

The only thing evil to me, and that is not even real evil its a genetic disorder, is the true psychopaths - playing with animals kind of thing.

Is he a loathe some human being? No doubt. Also no doubt he has rationalized this in his own mind to a degree where everything is justifiable and for the greater good blablabla.

I can easily imagine the Endlosung and its acceleration towards the end was a component of keeping morale in collapsing house of cards. I actually dont think Hitler rubbed off to the smell of dead jews.

But it exposes that middle construct of the middle classes of a given society, those in power, "our betters", how many of them would be obsolete if everyone decided today to get along? Half of them? More? They need common folk at each others throats... Its a fucking machine, with noone in particular at the wheel, of hate that feeds itself. If anything is evil its that fucking machine.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,051
10,570
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Do you know who else besides Jordan Peterson liked to use the term "cultural marxism" to describe social equality?

Hitler.

Edit: to clarify, Hitler and the Nazis used the term "Cultural Bolshevism," but it's the same thing.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,051
10,570
136
A pretty basic failure in his analysis is the idea that if Germany had devoted fewer resources to the Holocaust they could have won the war. By the point he’s talking about the war was already lost.

So really the choice was:

1) lose the war and not kill any Jews or:
2) lose the war more quickly and kill millions of Jews.

Jordan Peterson is a poseur.
Integral to the Nazi belief system was the "stabbed in the back" myth. That Germany was winning WWI but lost only because the Jews forced the Armistice on them. So by this logic (flawed as it was), the Nazis believed the Holocaust was necessary for them to win the war.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,944
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Integral to the Nazi belief system was the "stabbed in the back" myth. That Germany was winning WWI but lost only because the Jews forced the Armistice on them. So by this logic (flawed as it was), the Nazis believed the Holocaust was necessary for them to win the war.
I think Peterson was trying to explain the reason the logic was flawed, that the real motive was evil and not morally justified, that it was not to throw off some imaginary oppressive yoke, but to delight in torture.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
30,460
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How well are we prepared to face what we may actually be facing?
What if awareness is just too much for most people to handle?
If there are Nazis running rampant in America, then I take it the desired response is to NOT live with them. Not maintain a civil society with them in it. Instead, I believe you raise this topic to declare a need to kill said Nazis. Am I correct in the premise?

I think Peterson was trying to explain the reason the logic was flawed, that the real motive was evil and not morally justified, that it was not to throw off some imaginary oppressive yoke, but to delight in torture.
There is a distinction between some evil leader or propagandist, and a regular joe who would vote Democrat but feels hurt and betrayed and starts listening to said propaganda of how "others" are to blame.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,944
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Do you know who else besides Jordan Peterson liked to use the term "cultural marxism" to describe social equality?

Hitler.

Edit: to clarify, Hitler and the Nazis used the term "Cultural Bolshevism," but it's the same thing.
I do not understand the connection between the Nazi reaction to music, art, and sex, or generally progressive cultural movements of the times and a critique that focuses on extremism that pushes classical liberalism toward authoritarian insistence it’s voice alone should be heard.

I am as exercised about cultural Marxism as I am about right winged fascism because the country seems bent on the latter, but the right as it grows will more and more create what it fears and what everyone else should too. Real social equality, I think, is blind tolerance. Intolerance can wear any political stripe, seems to me.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,051
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I think Peterson was trying to explain the reason the logic was flawed, that the real motive was evil and not morally justified, that it was not to throw off some imaginary oppressive yoke, but to delight in torture.
I'm more inclined to believe that, instead of some unique instance of mythical evil, the Nazis were just yet another outbreak of the plague of genocide that has been with humanity since we were still in the trees.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,051
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I do not understand the connection between the Nazi reaction to music, art, and sex, or generally progressive cultural movements of the times and a critique that focuses on extremism that pushes classical liberalism toward authoritarian insistence it’s voice alone should be heard.

I am as exercised about cultural Marxism as I am about right winged fascism because the country seems bent on the latter, but the right as it grows will more and more create what it fears and what everyone else should too. Real social equality, I think, is blind tolerance. Intolerance can wear any political stripe, seems to me.
I continue to be amazed at your failure to see Jordan Peterson for the closet Nazi sympathizer that he so obviously is.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
49,051
10,570
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If there are Nazis running rampant in America, then I take it the desired response is to NOT live with them. Not maintain a civil society with them in it. Instead, I believe you raise this topic to declare a need to kill said Nazis. Am I correct in the premise?
Are you suggesting that humanity has no right to self-defense against the Nazis who have sworn to kill everyone they've determined is 'unclean' or 'unfit?'
 
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Gardener

Senior member
Nov 22, 1999
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What if awareness is just too much for most people to handle?
Let's not underestimate the value of propaganda. Scapegoating has immense value from an organizing perspective. Once he said the war wasn't about resources, well, I'd venture he doesn't teach history.

Germany lost the war because they opened the second front. Hitler did not lose the war because of his pathology, he almost won it.

Cain as savior construct? Seriously? Nutter or self-promoter is my vote.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
10,507
4,469
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Uh Germany was totally boned by the end of 1941 when the US entered the war, Barbarossa stalled short of its objectives with the Russians starting to reverse them, and the Blitz failed to make the British roll over complete with the neutering of the Luftwaffe as an effective force. Granted Hitler didn't see it that way but the facts are the facts. No amount of slave labor would have changed the ultimate outcome.

The only real question was what would it cost.
Germany lost the war as soon as they started it. They didn’t have the resources, personnel or economic capability to extend their rule all of Europe for any lengthy period of time. Hitler surprisingly bowed out of the fight with England showing the weakness of the 'reich' at its first turn. When He attacked Russia, he ensured a that Germany would suffer a humiliating defeat. When the US entered the war in Europe, Germany had absolutely no reason to hope. They would suffer the full impact of a war just as they had inflicted on the rest of Europe - nearly utter destruction. This is all clear in hindsight.

All this due to a self deluded, narcissistic, maniac who entertained a an illusory vision of some impossibly grand future. Who demonstrated his underlying truly pathological hatred by ordering the murder of million of Jews**. Sociopaths, by in large, should never be allowed to ascend to power (see Stalin as another example from that time frame).

Somewhat shockingly, a desperate German populace believed the little screaming man was their salvation. It was a fair warning to the world - not that humans, as a whole, have a habit of paying attention to fair warnings.

** and to drive @Moonbeam 's point home - it was almost certainly self hate deflected outwardly as a self defense mechanism. How horrible the consequences of that!
 
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