how to prevent school shootings?

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miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
I don't really want to turn this into a PRO conceal carry thread.

But I would be willing to bet, the average dude 'conceal carrying' is a much better shot than the typical cop. The few folks I know with conceal carry permits are exceptional shots and, effectively, gun experts.

 

wiredspider

Diamond Member
Jun 3, 2001
5,239
0
0
Originally posted by: mrrman
Originally posted by: Xanis
Originally posted by: mrrman
install metal detectors etc

On a college campus? That's not even remotely practical.

Why not??? Ive seen them in hospital entrances
because 200+ people don't change rooms/buildings every hour, 90 minutes, or whatever... At my school there is only 15 minutes between the classes, so you couldn't possibly scan everyone without them coming super early and I more often than not go to my classes late.

Also I carry on me a bunch of keys, pda, digital camera, all bound to set off a metal detector...

If a gunman really want to sneak in a gun, it would be so easy to bypass the metal detectors, week before set off the fire alarms, sneak into building, hide gun/ammo in a spot. It was said on the news, this guy might of called in the bomb threats last week to test security. Or they could pose as a student A/V person and hide gun/ammo in equipment. There is so much that is so easy...
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
metal detector is just asking for a matrix lobby scene. detectors only work against people who want to sneak in and get away with the crime. not people out to slaughter at all costs.
 

Brentx

Senior member
Jun 15, 2005
350
0
0
Like the OP said, colleges are places of learning and information exchange. We can not prevent this type of thing from happening, and locking down a campus would not only be impossible physically, but would hinder they type of education you get out of it.

All the people that go to college are adults. We don't need to be locked down like a High School, that would make the situation worse.

I go to a university to learn, not worry about people shooting me. This person could very well have done this in any public place such as a mall or football game. Should we lock those down too?
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
This crap doesn't happen in any other country but America. In Japan when someone goes crazy they just kill themselves or make a suicide pact with someone else, they don't kill innocents. In China when someone goes crazy... oh wait they can't - only the government can kill people. In Canada when people go crazy.. I don't know what the do - but they don't kill innocent random people even though they have tons of guns. England the same. Almost all of Europe.
Actually these public shooting and or killing rampages are hardly unique to the United States. More prevalent, probably yes, but not unique.

I recall a recent incident in Japan where some guy actually went on a knife/machete rampage and killed like eight people, wounding a dozen others. Canada has had incidents, as have Europe (France...Germany...UK).

I spent hours researching this in 2002 or so and posted my findings in a discussion but I tried to locate it in the archives and its nowhere to be found. Not going to do it all over again, but the info is out there for those who have a few hours to kill. The list was pretty extensive.

In Israel, allowing members of the public to train for and carry guns proved to be very effective, with several would-be Palestinian terrorists shot before they could do anything more than wound or kill a couple people.

Of course, the Palestinians simply resorted to bombs instead of guns. Easy enough to make, conceal, and deliver. Ban guns, and we will be asking "how to prevent school bombings?" Where there is a will...

Edit: I found one post but its not the more extensive list that I previously documented:

(This is not a comprehensive list of all public rampages in other countries, only the most infamous or deadly cases):

U.K.:

August 19, 1987, 27-year-old Michael Ryan shot to death 16 people and wounded 14 others in the small farming community of Hungerford, approximately 60 miles west of London.

March 13, 1996, Thomas Hamilton walked to the Dunblane Primary School in Scotland and killed 16 children, their teacher, and then shot himself.

Australia:

April 28, 1996, Martin Bryant, a 28-year-old with a history of mental problems went on a rampage beginning in the historical town of Port Arthur in the southeastern corner of Tasmania, killing 35 people.

17 August 1991, taxi driver Wade Frankum shot 8 people to death in a suburban shopping mall in Strathfield, Australia before turning the gun on himself.

August 7th, 1987, Julian Knight killed 7 and wounded 19 in Melbourne.

December 8th, 1987, Frank Vitkovic burst into a high-rise federal office building and fatally shot eight persons with a rifle before throwing himself through an 11th story window to his death. Five other persons were wounded in the shootings.

27 October 1992, Malcom Baker went on a shooting spree through three coastal towns near Sydney, Australia, killing his former girlfriend, her pregnant sister and four others before surrendering to authorities.

Canada:

April 6th, 1999, Pierre Leburn walked into his former place of employment on Ottawa, Canada and kills four former coworkers then kills himself.

In December of 1989, Marc Lepine went on a shooting rampage at the University of Montreal, targeting women as his victims, killing 14 and wounding 12, before killing himself.

5th April 1996, British Columbia, Mark Chahal burst into the home of his estranged wife's family and opened fire as they were preparing for a wedding, killing 9, before turning the gun on himself.

September 1970, Creston, British Columbia, Dale Nelson went on a killing spree leaving eight dead.

France:

On March 27, 2002, Richard Durn calmly opened fire at a city council meeting in the Paris suburb of Nanterre, methodically killing eight people and injuring more than 20 others in an attack the prime minister called a "a case of furious dementia."

July 1989, Luxiol, France: Christian Dornier drives around firing a shotgun at residents of a farming village 275 miles south-east of Paris, killing 14 people and wounding 9.

June 1985, Brittany, France: Guy Martell went on a shooting rampage through a string of towns, leaving seven dead.

September 1995, Cuers, France: Eric Borel murdered three members of his family after they criticize him for his failure in secondary school exams, then walked to a nearby village and calmly opened fire on a quiet town square, killing nine more people before committing suicide.

Holland:

April 1983, Delft, Holland: Sevdet Yilmaz, a Dutch national of Turkish birth, shot dead six people and wounded four others in a crowded cafe in Delft.

New Zealand:

November 1990, Aramoana, New Zealand: David Malcolm Gray terrorized the small township of Aramoana killing 13 people before being fatally shot by police.

October 1941, Hokitika, New Zealand: Stanley Graham shot dead seven men including four police officers.

February 1997, Raurimu, New Zealand: Armed with a shotgun, Stephen Anderson stalked a New Zealand ski village for an hour, killing six people and seriously wounding five others.

Switzerland:

September 27, 2001, Zug, Switzerland: A gunman with a grievance against politicians went on the rampage in a regional parliament, killing at least 15 people - including himself and wounding dozens of others.

March 1992, Lugano, Switzerland: Erminio Criscione killed six people and wounded six others by ringing doorbells and firing on victims as they answered the door.

Germany:

February 2002: A former pupil killed his headmaster and set off pipe bombs in the technical school he had recently been expelled from in Freising near Munich. The man also shot dead his boss and a foreman at the company he worked for before turning the gun on himself.

April 2002: Seventeen people killed after a gunman - a former pupil - opens fire in a school in Erfurt, eastern Germany. He then turned the gun on himself.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Originally posted by: fierydemise
You can't it really that simple. Letting people carry guns won't stop the shooters, look at this guy he killed himself in the end, he wasn't afraid to die.

It's not supposed to prevent the incidents, it's supposed to allow those who choose to protect themselves do so. In the end it might lessen the casualties some by stopping it sooner, but it would definitely give those of us who carry a sense of security.
 

Luthien

Golden Member
Feb 1, 2004
1,721
0
0
Create a religion with the threat of eternal damnation and burning in pain and suffering forever if you go on a shooting rampage?
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,363
475
126
nobody is ever going to stop that dedicated crazy - theres always one person willing to go all out to accomplish their goal. arming everyone/metal detectors/closed campus are all total wastes of money.
 

thirdlegstump

Banned
Feb 12, 2001
8,713
0
0
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: fierydemise
You can't it really that simple. Letting people carry guns won't stop the shooters, look at this guy he killed himself in the end, he wasn't afraid to die.

It's not supposed to prevent the incidents, it's supposed to allow those who choose to protect themselves do so. In the end it might lessen the casualties some by stopping it sooner, but it would definitely give those of us who carry a sense of security.

I don't know about that. I wouldn't even want to go to a school where people - even teachers - are allowed to carry guns. That's just a BAD idea.

Think about it for a second, would you trust your sister to carry around a gun in the house? I don't think I could. The argument to this is that with proper training and education, guns can protect you and reduce domestic violence. I don't believe it and it doesn't work. Accidents happen frequently and accidents with guns are not a good thing.

A scenario:

What happens if some lunatic takes the gun away from you simply because you were hesitant of shooting? (which happens even with trained policemen) You've got yourself a dangerous, possibly suicidal maniac with YOUR gun who'll fire at anyone even when fired upon. The typical answer to that is since everyone else is carrying a gun, he may not be dumb enough to fire or he's simply outnumbered and will be shot and killed..but he'll still fire and hit a few people before you know it or can even react to it. Also your trained gunmen will likely miss a few rounds and hit someone else - an accident.

I'm not saying gun control is the answer, I'm saying allowing people to carry them is not the right solution to THIS problem as you're only adding to the problem and not looking at the root, which is well funded education and an economically balanced society.

Just so you know, I am an NRA member and an advocate of sports shooting and hunting. All I'm saying is, guns simply do not belong in schools. Bring books instead.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: AnthroAndStargate
This crap doesn't happen in any other country but America. In Japan when someone goes crazy they just kill themselves or make a suicide pact with someone else, they don't kill innocents. In China when someone goes crazy... oh wait they can't - only the government can kill people. In Canada when people go crazy.. I don't know what the do - but they don't kill innocent random people even though they have tons of guns. England the same. Almost all of Europe.
Teen charged with murder after Canada school shooting
TABER, Alberta (CNN) -- A 14-year-old former student was charged Thursday with first-degree murder and attempted murder, a day after he allegedly marched into a high school in southern Alberta and shot two students, killing one and seriously wounding the other.

The boy, who was not identified because he is a juvenile, fired four shots from a .22-caliber rifle at W.R. Myers high school on Wednesday, police said, killing 17-year-old Jason Lang. Lang's friend, Shane Christmas, also 17, was listed in fair to serious condition Thursday at a hospital after surgery.

The shooting came just eight days after an attack on a Colorado high school left 14 students and one teacher dead, and it sent shock waves through the small farming community of Taber, about 110 miles (175 km) southeast of Calgary, Alberta.
Student killed in Montreal shooting rampage
A gunman with a Mohawk haircut and black clothing opened fire inside Montreal's Dawson College on Wednesday, killing one woman and wounding 19 others.

Police had earlier believed there were as many as four gunmen, as shots reportedly continued to be heard.

The 20-year-old female victim died in hospital from her wounds. Five people admitted to Montreal General Hospital remain in critical condition, four are listed in serious condition and two are stable.
Neither can this be chalked up to a single race or culture. In the first of my examples the shooter was white; in the second he was Indian.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
Earlier this year the Virginia General Assembly failed to act on House Bill 1572. The citizens of Virginia are permitted to carry concealed weapons if they get a proper permit from the state government --- unless you are on a college campus. This bill would have allowed college students and employees to carry handguns on campus --- with appropriate permits, of course. It died in subcommittee.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
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Originally posted by: thirdlegstump
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: fierydemise
You can't it really that simple. Letting people carry guns won't stop the shooters, look at this guy he killed himself in the end, he wasn't afraid to die.

It's not supposed to prevent the incidents, it's supposed to allow those who choose to protect themselves do so. In the end it might lessen the casualties some by stopping it sooner, but it would definitely give those of us who carry a sense of security.

I don't know about that. I wouldn't even want to go to a school where people - even teachers - are allowed to carry guns. That's just a BAD idea.

Think about it for a second, would you trust your sister to carry around a gun in the house? I don't think I could. The argument to this is that with proper training and education, guns can protect you and reduce domestic violence. I don't believe it and it doesn't work. Accidents happen frequently and accidents with guns are not a good thing.

A scenario:

What happens if some lunatic takes the gun away from you simply because you were hesitant of shooting? (which happens even with trained policemen) You've got yourself a dangerous, possibly suicidal maniac with YOUR gun who'll fire at anyone even when fired upon. The typical answer to that is since everyone else is carrying a gun, he may not be dumb enough to fire or he's simply outnumbered and will be shot and killed..but he'll still fire and hit a few people before you know it or can even react to it. Also your trained gunmen will likely miss a few rounds and hit someone else - an accident.

I'm not saying gun control is the answer, I'm saying allowing people to carry them is not the right solution to THIS problem as you're only adding to the problem and not looking at the root, which is well funded education and an economically balanced society.

Just so you know, I am an NRA member and an advocate of sports shooting and hunting. All I'm saying is, guns simply do not belong in schools. Bring books instead.

You are just ignorant of what's going on around you every day. In Washington state alone a couple hundred thousand people carry concealed. Many of the people I know carry 24/7 (including my sister, my brother, my sister-in-law, an aunt, etc), and more have a CPL even if they don't carry daily. The odds are that every day you are in the presence of someone with a gun on them. Accept it.

Give me your statistical proof that guns aren't used to stop crime, and I'll give you mine. Be warned though, even if you toss out Lott it's easy to come up with over a hundred thousand correct defensive uses per year...far more than the number of gun crimes committed. Again, I can find more correct uses than you can find incorrect ones, so give me actual proof that what you say is so.

In these situations the criminal brings his own gun, and therefore is already armed. Taking my gun away is utterly irrelevant. Even if that were an actual scenerio he'd have to manage to get my gun, which is going to be hard (albeit possible). However you MUST accept the SAME EXACT argument against police carrying guns, because I'm far better trained than most law enforcement officers so if a criminal can get my gun he can also get theirs. Finally I'd rather have a shootout in the first classroom where the gunman kills 1 or 2 people before I drop him, than just to let him kill 30+...including me!

Again, allowing me to carry at school won't stop these events, but they will allow me to try and protect myself. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE will do that. We have lots of education now, and it hasn't stopped these shootings. Your world sounds like a very nice place, but it's not the real world in which we live. Until we, as a society, address the underlying issues causing these events (and even then they'll never completely stop) I should have the right to defend myself.

As for feeling safe at school, I no longer feel safe. At all. And I have statistics, news reports, and research to back up my fears. Why should your fear of guns (which so far is founded on ignorance and misinformation) grant you a false sense of security while my very real fear of not having one take away what little security I have?
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
Originally posted by: thirdlegstump
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: fierydemise
You can't it really that simple. Letting people carry guns won't stop the shooters, look at this guy he killed himself in the end, he wasn't afraid to die.

It's not supposed to prevent the incidents, it's supposed to allow those who choose to protect themselves do so. In the end it might lessen the casualties some by stopping it sooner, but it would definitely give those of us who carry a sense of security.

I don't know about that. I wouldn't even want to go to a school where people - even teachers - are allowed to carry guns. That's just a BAD idea.

Think about it for a second, would you trust your sister to carry around a gun in the house? I don't think I could. The argument to this is that with proper training and education, guns can protect you and reduce domestic violence. I don't believe it and it doesn't work. Accidents happen frequently and accidents with guns are not a good thing.

A scenario:

What happens if some lunatic takes the gun away from you simply because you were hesitant of shooting? (which happens even with trained policemen) You've got yourself a dangerous, possibly suicidal maniac with YOUR gun who'll fire at anyone even when fired upon. The typical answer to that is since everyone else is carrying a gun, he may not be dumb enough to fire or he's simply outnumbered and will be shot and killed..but he'll still fire and hit a few people before you know it or can even react to it. Also your trained gunmen will likely miss a few rounds and hit someone else - an accident.

I'm not saying gun control is the answer, I'm saying allowing people to carry them is not the right solution to THIS problem as you're only adding to the problem and not looking at the root, which is well funded education and an economically balanced society.

Just so you know, I am an NRA member and an advocate of sports shooting and hunting. All I'm saying is, guns simply do not belong in schools. Bring books instead.

CCW is the answer to keep YOU safe, it won't stop gun violence. It will be interesting to see where this guy got his gun. As was shown above, in FL, 0.01% of CCW holders had their permits revoked due to firearm crimes. Giving EVERYONE guns is not the answer, but ensuring that the process is working for citizens to legally carry weapons can HELP with the problem. CCW needs to be responsible adult citizens, who are committed to (and required to) responsible CCW, including shooting certifications and recerts, random background checks, and loss of that privilege if the do something stupid.

In the recent UT shooting, the officer that took the guy down was an off duty cop from another county, and was only packing because he is a CCW. Who knows how that might have ended otherwise. The other difference between this tragic incident and the UT one is that the cops were on the scene in something like 3-4 minutes from shots being fired.

The Campus police and staff screwed the pooch on this one, they should have locked down the school after the first shooting, and turned people away. Some of the victims were not even on campus for the first shooting. You need to lock down the school when you have a gun toting wacko on the loose, it's just common sense (or so I would think)
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
Originally posted by: JDub02
clone jack bauer?

And Chloe, since you would need at least 1 Chloe per 2 Jack's, and that would decrease the JB efficiency rating somewhat.