Capt Caveman
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2005
- 34,543
- 651
- 126
An employer can not ask another employer what an employee was making but can ask if they confirm that employee A was making this amount. The same with employment dates.
First, I would ask for a salary range, which is a broad range based on experience that you may have. That's the only thing I would mention during talks with them until you get an offer.
So this is how I handle negotiating salary, and works out really well I think. You've already decided you want a minimum of 60k for your next salary, right? So let's say you get an offer for 55k. In the back of your head, you are comfortable with 60k. You come back, give your little proposal saying that you are worth more than that, and counter back with 63 or 65k. Usually, they won't take that, but they'll come back with something lower. Continue on until you are satisfied with the outcome.
Some of the other things you may want to consider is a sign-on bonus, that usually helps and companies like to take that advantage.
Good luck!
So this is how I handle negotiating salary, and works out really well I think. You've already decided you want a minimum of 60k for your next salary, right? So let's say you get an offer for 55k. In the back of your head, you are comfortable with 60k. You come back, give your little proposal saying that you are worth more than that, and counter back with 63 or 65k. Usually, they won't take that, but they'll come back with something lower. Continue on until you are satisfied with the outcome.
Some of the other things you may want to consider is a sign-on bonus, that usually helps and companies like to take that advantage.
Good luck!
Now you're starting to understand why you NEVER give that information. Negotiating your starting salary is very important as future raises and promotions are based on this, even 10 or 20k extra negotiated on the front end really adds up over time.
Not only that but employers feel better if they pay more. They feel they are getting the best for their money, exactly like people feel better about buying something expensive. They normally feel more expensive = better.
You may be giddy because you got your 60 but by naming a number you miss out on the potential 80 or more. Which is nothing to sneeze at even after taxes. It's a tough game to play and you have to be prepared to NOT accept a verbal offer - it's just like car buying.
In all likely hood the 60 and 80k the company doesn't care about as they're probably in the same job grade level - do you want the low end or the high end of that level?
Seriously man, what you are talking about here is very industry specific. Most just don't work that way right now. In most industries you are lucky to get a face to face interview without spitting out a range of what you are looking to make. There are just too many candidates for employers to choose from atm. Don't get me wrong. If the opportunity presents itself where you are able to get that face to face interview without informing them about salary expectations then go for it, but otherwise...
But we're talking IT here. There are too many jobs and not enough qualified people to fill them. All I'm trying to point out is you have nothing to gain and everything to lose by stating a number first. And there is significant amount of money to lose.
As long as somebody realizes they could be throwing 10s of thousands of dollars a year if not more by stating a number, then fine. As long as they're OK with that. I'm not.
I don't wanna threadjack, but I just got interviewed yesterday and they made me fill out an application before I came in. The problem was they gave it to me TUESDAY NIGHT when I was taking my last final, and I didnt get a chance to fill it out till like 10pm. Well, they asked for income history, and while I don't think that should be an issues, this IS a small company, and I know my friend there is already underpaid. He was severely underpaid as an intern there last summer (I had a good $10/hr more than he did), and from what I hear I may be taking his position. Now granted that he's a full time employee now making a decent amount, and I'm applying for a full time position, I'm just afraid that I might get screwed since they already saw my income history.
However, this is a small company in the growing stages and they do want to hire a lot in the next few months. My friend kept reassuring me that they will give me an offer even if I didn't ace my interviews. Dunno. I don't really know how to start negotiating my salary.
However, this is a small company in the growing stages and they do want to hire a lot in the next few months. My friend kept reassuring me that they will give me an offer even if I didn't ace my interviews. Dunno. I don't really know how to start negotiating my salary.
You're wrong to say that they got nothing to lose. They do have something to lose. They lose their chance to put a foot in the door. I agree that you shouldn't give up your salary information so quickly, but sometime it's necessary if you want to get in the door. It's better to get a chance to negotiate than not having a chance at all.
From all the replies in this thread, it sounds like too many of you are submissive to the companies. I know everyone wants a good job and everything, but don't let them get the upper hand.
Spend the time to really understand your market and price yourself accordingly. If you're not sure, check out some of the websites that offer this information. Salary.com is good as spidey suggested, but there are some other options:
1) Look at CraigsList. A lot of times people will post salary/rates there.
2) Use Google to find the salary requirements of others. Try something like, "<insert your job here> salary requirements filetype:doc" and get resumes filled with salary requirements. You can narrow it down by city as well. Just play with the search results.
3) Go to some organizations for others in your industry. Most cities have something, and people are usually pretty open with income discussions. In the absence of an organization that defines rates/salaries, people will organize informally to help maintain the market. Look for user groups.
4) Salary.com, Monster.com, Dice.com, etc. I've usually found these to be at the lower end of the compensation spectrum, but they will give you a nice average.
5) Do some recon. Call companies like TekSystems, RHI and all the other monolithic headhunting companies. Ask them if they have any openings for what you do and just flat out ask for a rate. They're usually forthcoming. It always helps to build a relationship with these people anyway. I have a network of headhunters that I work with that give me feedback on market rates in the area, etc. so that I can keep a pulse on the market.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
So, take control of the negotiation. Play an active role and don't acquiesce to the formalities of the companies. Say what you're worth and be prepared to walk if you don't like it.
Spend the time to really understand your market and price yourself accordingly. If you're not sure, check out some of the websites that offer this information. Salary.com is good as spidey suggested, but there are some other options:
1) Look at CraigsList. A lot of times people will post salary/rates there.
2) Use Google to find the salary requirements of others. Try something like, "<insert your job here> salary requirements filetype:doc" and get resumes filled with salary requirements. You can narrow it down by city as well. Just play with the search results.
3) Go to some organizations for others in your industry. Most cities have something, and people are usually pretty open with income discussions. In the absence of an organization that defines rates/salaries, people will organize informally to help maintain the market. Look for user groups.
4) Salary.com, Monster.com, Dice.com, etc. I've usually found these to be at the lower end of the compensation spectrum, but they will give you a nice average.
5) Do some recon. Call companies like TekSystems, RHI and all the other monolithic headhunting companies. Ask them if they have any openings for what you do and just flat out ask for a rate. They're usually forthcoming. It always helps to build a relationship with these people anyway. I have a network of headhunters that I work with that give me feedback on market rates in the area, etc. so that I can keep a pulse on the market.
That's all I can think of at the moment.
So, take control of the negotiation. Play an active role and don't acquiesce to the formalities of the companies. Say what you're worth and be prepared to walk if you don't like it.
ViviTheMage
Lifer
you all complicate it too much, If you have a price you want, tell them it. If you want to shoot higher, go for it.
grow a pair, its what you will be doing from 8-5 or whatever.
grow a pair, its what you will be doing from 8-5 or whatever.
For me the salary didn't come up until I was offered a position with the company. I was pretty sure their requirements were a bit below what I was prepared to accept, and I called up the supervisor and told him that I wasn't prepared to make a lateral move, and asked straight up if there was anything that could be done to make the offer more attractive. I expressed my interest in the position, but was pretty firm that it wasn't quite what I was looking for.
They came back about 12% higher, plus a moving allowance, and I was happy to accept. I think it raised them in my eyes, and raised their expectations for what I am going to bring to their company, and I look forward to the challenge. Now if only this interminable last couple of weeks at my current position would finish! June 2nd I'm out of here
They came back about 12% higher, plus a moving allowance, and I was happy to accept. I think it raised them in my eyes, and raised their expectations for what I am going to bring to their company, and I look forward to the challenge. Now if only this interminable last couple of weeks at my current position would finish! June 2nd I'm out of here
hydroponik
Senior member
- Oct 2, 2006
- 530
- 0
- 0
If the company doesn't want to waste their time, then they should advertise the salary range. There's no "homework" involved, the company either lists their range or they tell you during the interview. If they don't then they can expect me not to answer them.
I just recently went through this and about half the companies/recruiters I talked to asked me what my range was. I told them that I didnt want to reveal that right now and proceeded with the interview. I had a couple recruiters press me, so I reversed it and asked what the range was on the job they were offering. They either tell me or they don't and if they don't, then I quote an obscenely high rate/salary.
As far as requiring it on an application, I will always list my previous salaries with the exception of the current job. If they don't like it, tough, and I walk. There's too many great jobs out there for me to dick around with some HR ass on a power trip.
The key is to accurately evaluate yourself based on the market conditions.
Is what you are doing specialized? Are there a lot of people out there can do what you can do, for lower than the price you are asking?
For JR positions, you have less room to wiggle, because companies are willing to hire inexperienced people for cheap and groom them later on.
For SR positions, especially if your field is very specialized (meaning there are only a handful people in your area that is qualified), then you significantly have more wiggle room. Many companies are desperate for SR level employees that have a specialized knowledge set that they are willing to pay out the wa-zoo.
So take everybody's suggestion with a grain of salt, because they are only describing experiences/situations pertaining to them, not yours. Only you have the ability to accurately assess your self-worth based on the market condition.
Is what you are doing specialized? Are there a lot of people out there can do what you can do, for lower than the price you are asking?
For JR positions, you have less room to wiggle, because companies are willing to hire inexperienced people for cheap and groom them later on.
For SR positions, especially if your field is very specialized (meaning there are only a handful people in your area that is qualified), then you significantly have more wiggle room. Many companies are desperate for SR level employees that have a specialized knowledge set that they are willing to pay out the wa-zoo.
So take everybody's suggestion with a grain of salt, because they are only describing experiences/situations pertaining to them, not yours. Only you have the ability to accurately assess your self-worth based on the market condition.
steppinthrax, I don't know if it's been mentioned, but you can negotiate for perks other than the job's starting salary. Vacation time, vacation accrual rate, medical, yearly salary increase, add another percentage point or two on top of a yearly cost of living increase, or bonuses.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Exactly. In addition, today's market even in the IT world is chalked full of applicants and while many of them are not of great quality more and more companies are willing to sacrifice some quality to save money. Times are tough and that is just the way it is. Right now, it is not unusual to go to an interview, be the perfect person for the job from all angles, walk out feeling like you nailed it with perfect marks, and never get a call back because your salary request was higher than "the other guy" who may not have left as great of an impression but was "good enough". Until the economy recovers, we are going to see this more and more often even in the IT world where it is well known that good employees can be difficult to come by.
I don't know what IT world you're living in, but right now skilled IT people demand a very hefty price. That's even if you can find them.
Employers want quality, and are willing to pay for it. Use this to your advantage.
Example - I'm trying to find a good Lotus Notes guy, the only one who was decent wanted 195K. He's hired.
Capt Caveman
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2005
- 34,543
- 651
- 126
In the IT world, the difference can be black and white depending on where you live too. Don't forget about that. Not everyone lives in hot spot areas on the west coast or in the northeast. It also makes a world of difference depending on the size of the company that is hiring you. The point I am trying to make is that while your negotiation strategy does work it is on a case by case basis and those cases are getting slimmer and slimmer as of late due to the economy. It's very important as an applicant to take all of this stuff into consideration for each and every job they apply for or else they will miss out on a lot of opportunity. This can be a very crucial thing to consider especially if your job hunt involves the scenario where you are currently unemployed. Things are much different if you are working and looking to upgrade your career.
I'm not an idiot and I mispoke by saying he's hired. He was given an offer and we hope he accepts it.
My experience has shown me that pay ranges exist based on the first few years of experience. So, if you put down 2.5 years experience, the employer will have an idea of what to expect. A 20% increase (about) every two years is what I have personally seen with SQL programming. However, a friend I know has mentioned he did better with java programming.
I interviewed at one place where their employment application stated it was required to provide my current salary. I put "sufficient" in the box. They called me in for one interview but I did not make the second interview.
Another place I talked with, started with a phone call from their HR. First question from them was my identity, "Hello is this ...". The second question was the salary range I was looking for. I did not answer since I believe it is better to get a face-to-face interview first and tell the lead tech manager the salary range in person, after they have seen me and invested a bit of their personal time. I really did not care for the position since it appeared to be a lateral move in which I would learn little more.
During the in-person interview with the tech manager, I told him my honest current salary and followed up with a request for a 20% increase from there. They mentioned that was too high. Companies always say that. Then I mentioned that I wanted a specific number at 23% and followed by stating anything less than 20% and I would allow my current employer to counteroffer. At the end of this in-person interview they asked me again what I wanted, so I told them a specific number at 25% higher than I was currently earning. Everytime they asked, I increased the amount.
A few days later, this company offered me only $1,200 more than I was currently making. I politely told them I was not interested for that amount, put down the phone a bit disapointed and continued looking for a job. Three weeks later, late Friday evening, I received a phone call asking to renegotiate. They offered me 21% more than I was currently making and I happily accepted.
Now here is the kicker, at some point during the process after the in-person interview, I filled out an employment application where they asked what I was currently earning. Since I had told the tech manager during the interview, I truthfully put down the exact amount I was earning. When I later accepted the position, I had to provide proof of my current salary. They would not hire me without seeing my paystubs, with the numbers. Apparently, this is corporate policy. I figured that for a 20% increase, they can have the paystubs.
I interviewed at one place where their employment application stated it was required to provide my current salary. I put "sufficient" in the box. They called me in for one interview but I did not make the second interview.
Another place I talked with, started with a phone call from their HR. First question from them was my identity, "Hello is this ...". The second question was the salary range I was looking for. I did not answer since I believe it is better to get a face-to-face interview first and tell the lead tech manager the salary range in person, after they have seen me and invested a bit of their personal time. I really did not care for the position since it appeared to be a lateral move in which I would learn little more.
During the in-person interview with the tech manager, I told him my honest current salary and followed up with a request for a 20% increase from there. They mentioned that was too high. Companies always say that. Then I mentioned that I wanted a specific number at 23% and followed by stating anything less than 20% and I would allow my current employer to counteroffer. At the end of this in-person interview they asked me again what I wanted, so I told them a specific number at 25% higher than I was currently earning. Everytime they asked, I increased the amount.
A few days later, this company offered me only $1,200 more than I was currently making. I politely told them I was not interested for that amount, put down the phone a bit disapointed and continued looking for a job. Three weeks later, late Friday evening, I received a phone call asking to renegotiate. They offered me 21% more than I was currently making and I happily accepted.
Now here is the kicker, at some point during the process after the in-person interview, I filled out an employment application where they asked what I was currently earning. Since I had told the tech manager during the interview, I truthfully put down the exact amount I was earning. When I later accepted the position, I had to provide proof of my current salary. They would not hire me without seeing my paystubs, with the numbers. Apparently, this is corporate policy. I figured that for a 20% increase, they can have the paystubs.
20% over what you're currently making is generally considered what you need to offer to make somebody jump ship. This is accepted practice. Although asking for paystubs is REALLY weird, that is none of their business and I think I would really offended by something like that.
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