How to handle a homeland security checkpoint.

[noto12ious]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
They should have tasered the dick and gotten his compliance the old-fashioned way...by beating it out of him.

you sound like a dirty commie.

 

[noto12ious]

Originally posted by: Mavtek3100
I fucking loved what that guy did! Rock ON!

:thumbsup:

 

[JD50]

What an asshole.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: bbdub333

How many of the people who pass through those checkpoints nonchalantly just go with it?

I'd wager that it's the same as the number of people who continue on to their destination within 10 seconds of stopping.

Time is not the issue.

OK, then it's the same as the number of people who go about their business having sacrificed no personal freedom whatsoever, not having inconvenienced themselves, the officer, and the people waiting behind them, and not going home with a video tape of themselves acting like idiots.

 

[IronWing]

The only thing the guy had going for him was the line of cars stacking up behind him, providing witnesses. Had he really been alone the outcome would have likely been very different.

That was one poorly trained agent. She clearly didn't understand the legal ramifications of his question or what her authorities really were.

The highway checkpoints are simply harassment, they serve no purpose. Checkpoint goes up, illegal traffic shifts to new route. Checkpoint closes, normal illegal traffic resumes.

The guy was completely within his rights to ask the questions he was asking.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: bbdub333

How many of the people who pass through those checkpoints nonchalantly just go with it?

I'd wager that it's the same as the number of people who continue on to their destination within 10 seconds of stopping.

Time is not the issue.

OK, then it's the same as the number of people who go about their business having sacrificed no personal freedom whatsoever, not having inconvenienced themselves, the officer, and the people waiting behind them, and not going home with a video tape of themselves acting like idiots.

Wrong. The "papers please" BS is infringing on my privacy as a Citizen. The government does not own you nor me. Since when did exercising your Rights as a Citizen make you an "asshole" or a "jerk". It is people like you that give up our freedoms daily without thought. The incremental whittling away that you do not notice till its too late. The guy broke no law and showed you the way to protect yourself and your privacy lawfully.

By giving in to their willy nilly demands we get things like Homeland Security from such papers as The Patriot Act. Which leads me to think you support those programs. Do you?

 

[NaughtyGeek]

This guy is my freaking hero.

 

[palehorse]

The majority of those here who are violently opposed to these CPB checkpoints are also wacked-out paulbots... coincidence? I THINK NOT!

they're one tattoo and one pair of too-small pants away from being Anarchists...

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
The majority of those here who are violently opposed to these CPB checkpoints are also wacked-out paulbots... coincidence? I THINK NOT!

they're one tattoo and one pair of too-small pants away from being Anarchists...

Violently opposed? Sensationalize much? And whats with your last two posts about "paulbots", trolling for action?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
uhh... wtf does this, or my challenge to jpeyton, have to do with the TSA?!

save your TSA rant for another day and thread...

Uhhh... He compared these checkpoints to airport security. You asked him to supply facts indicating that these are ineffective. Try to keep up. And I have posted several threads about the ridiculous nature of TSA screening, though you have been noticeably absent in them.

Originally posted by: palehorse74
The majority of those here who are violently opposed to these CPB checkpoints are also wacked-out paulbots... coincidence? I THINK NOT!

they're one tattoo and one pair of too-small pants away from being Anarchists...

I am not a Paul supporter. Why not read this before making such illogical statements in the future?

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
What an asshole, wish they did detain him for not answering a simple question.

I think his point is that he doesn't have to ... these aren't border checkpoints... they are well in the US... He does not need to answer what his country of origin is...

Dude is pissed... Imagine if there was a check point every other day on your trip to work that stop and asked your nationality...

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: gentobu

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: gentobu
Well said, but none of this changes the fact that the guy in the video is being an ass. If he wants change, he should take his issue up with someone who has the power to make that change. What he did is like yelling at a cashier because he doesn't like corporate policy. It changes nothing, and it ends up pissing off the cashier and the people waiting in line. He was not "standing up for his rights", he was acting like a stubborn bratty child.

I disagree; civil disobedience is an effective form of protest and has been used many times throughout history when the "people in power" wouldn't listen.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, because I just don't see how being an ass can be an effective form of protest. Civil disobedience is fine, but choose your battles. Make your case and present it like an adult, not like a bratty little kid.

Sorry, he used his Rights the way they are meant to be used. We are not subjects to a master. The methods he used were correct and just. Police officers (or any law enforcement for that matter) are taught and very adept at using coercive language to achieve compliance. The only thing is, they only have that power over you by your answers and actions. If you stick to the line of questioning in this video, you do not allow their coercive language to take hold. How many of the people who pass through those checkpoints nonchalantly just go with it? They don't even know they have the Right by Law to resist inspection without cause. We too freely these days give up our authority to anyone in uniform. More and more people need to do this in every instance of encounter with Law Enforcement. Thats part of the reason why we keep losing ground on the Civil Liberties front, no one knows what to say or how to stop it. Thank God for intelligent and helpful people like the guy in th evideo. Few and far between IMO.

great post.

the guy fallowed the law to the letter. he set a great example on how you should act when stopped.

while i am fully against illegal immigrants. the time to check citizenship is at the boarder. Doing checkpoints along the road in US territory is slightly frightening.

i agree with what the man did and applaud it.

 

[MadRat]

There must be a reason normal citizens are initiating the stops. The border agents probably have no charter on the highways to make arrests, traffic stops, or otherwise. You probably have grounds to stop and continue on without fear of reprisal simply because the lack of authority to detain. Notice the people are asking for cooperation, not ordering it.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: MadRat
There must be a reason normal citizens are initiating the stops. The border agents probably have no charter on the highways to make arrests, traffic stops, or otherwise. You probably have grounds to stop and continue on without fear of reprisal simply because the lack of authority to detain. Notice the people are asking for cooperation, not ordering it.

If you just stopped and then started driving again I'm sure the pigs would claim that you tried to run them over as the jump in front of your car.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
violently opposed to these CPB checkpoints

Violently? :laugh:

Anarchists...

Oh come on, palehorse. Don't hold back. I know you have it in you. So, please, do yourself a favor, and dig deep, look into your soul, draw from your truest inner-most feelings, and you can call us exactly what you think we are. Terrorists.

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: palehorse74
violently opposed to these CPB checkpoints

Violently? :laugh:

Anarchists...

Oh come on, palehorse. Don't hold back. I know you have it in you. So, please, do yourself a favor, and dig deep, look into your soul, draw from your truest inner-most feelings, and you can call us exactly what you think we are. Terrorists.

"You turrists and ur belief that you should be free from unreasunubbul gubberment hurassmunt! I bet you think the gubment is supposedta follow dat Constiltooshun thingy, too!"

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
The majority of those here who are violently opposed to these CPB checkpoints are also wacked-out paulbots... coincidence? I THINK NOT!

they're one tattoo and one pair of too-small pants away from being Anarchists...

violently opposed? i see nobody recommending violence. just recommending using your rights. are you against useing a persons rights? sure sounds like it.


oh and not all against it are paulbots.

 

[bamacre]

It is quite ironic that palehorse call us "violent."

Anyone with a brain that's not up a neo-conservative ass knows why.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
The majority of those here who are violently opposed to these CPB checkpoints are also wacked-out paulbots... coincidence? I THINK NOT!

they're one tattoo and one pair of too-small pants away from being Anarchists...

I think we all can see who here is really the whacked-out extremist.

 

[jjones]

I don't understand why anyone would consider this guy an asshole or jackass. He was polite and civil to the woman. Apparently he seems to have been justified in his actions as he was ultimately free to go. Was this checkpoint illegal? Or if not technically illegal to operate, was it outside of its jurisdiction of enforcement?

 

[1prophet]

This guy wasn't so lucky.

Text

Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:53:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Terry Bressi <tbressi@seds.lpl.arizona.edu>
To: gnu@toad.com
Subject: Police checkpoint incident

John [Gilmore]

I thought I'd share with you a recent experience I had regarding
travelling & I.D.

Friday afternoon while travelling back to Tucson after working the day at
a remote site, I was detained/arrested at a police check point in the
Tohono O'odham Reservation - Pima County, Arizona. The check point was a
joint task force operation involving the Tohono O'odham police, U.S.
Customs, and INS/Border Patrol. Below appears my account of the events
that transpired.

I will be seeking a change of venue to Tucson for the upcoming court
appearances as well as mounting a vigorous defense regarding the charges
against me. State law clearly indicates that a valid police stop must be
premised on reasonable suspicion or probable cause of wrongdoing. Any
suggestions would be welcome.

It would appear that it is now unlawful in this country to travel home
from a days work without being properly cleared by the authorities that be.

Feel free to distribute this email as you see fit. Thanks and Happy
Holidays.

Terry Bressi
tbressi@seds.lpl.arizona.edu
1-520-808-2054
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

20 December 2002 - 1700: I came upon a police check point on Arizona Route
86 at mile marker 143 in the Tohono O'odham reservation - Pima County,
Arizona.

I called a coworker on a cell phone while waiting in backed up traffic &
informed him of the circumstances. He stayed on the line the entire time I
interacted with the enforcement officers up to the time I was forcibly
removed from the vehicle. My co-worker heard most of the conversation.

The road block was setup in such a place as to provide no prior warning as
to its presence and no ability to bypass it. Route 86 is the only viable
route back to Tucson from Kitt Peak & there is no shoulder along large
sections of the route which would allow an individual the opportunity to
turn around prior to entering the checkpoint.

Spotters were present along the side of the road some distance before the
checkpoint. Their purpose was not obvious until after coming upon the
roadblock.

I was travelling back to Tucson after working at a remote site.

A dozen or so enforcement vehicles were present along the side of the road
at the checkpoint.

Tohono O'odham police, U.S. Customs, & INS/Border Patrol Vehicles were
present along with several unmarked enforcement vehicles.

I was stopped by the officer in charge who worked for the Tohono O'odham
Police.

Upon request, the officer indicated the purpose of the checkpoint was
sobriety & license checks which seemed inconsistent with the presence of
U.S. Customs & INS law enforcement personnel.

Upon request, the officer provided his name but failed to provide photo
identification. The officer then requested my license. I requested to know
why he wanted it. The officer indicated everyone was being asked for their
license for identification purposes and to check for compliance with
traffic laws.

I requested to know if the stops being made were based upon individualized
probable cause of wrongdoing. He indicated there was no probable cause &
everyone was being treated the same.

Others officers were beginning to gather around my vehicle at this time -
including the U.S. Customs Agent.

The officer in charge asked me for my drivers license again. I asked him
if he had any reason to believe my drivers license wasn't in order or
whether or not he had probable cause to believe I was in violation of any
statute of the State.

He indicated he had no such belief but that I needed to provide my license
to him.

I indicated that I was uncomfortable providing my license given the
current set of circumstances. He then asked for my name which I provided
along with a contact name and number for my boss who could verify my
identity and purpose for being in the vehicle.

I then reiterated my request to know what law authorized him to stop me
without probable cause of wrongdoing and demand my identification papers.
No answer was forthcoming.

At some point during this conversation, a Tohono O'odham detective spoke
up and indicated that he could tell I hadn't been drinking because my eyes
were not bloodshot, I was communicating effectively, and exhibited no
signs of being impaired but that I still needed to provide a license. He
indicated this was an area known for drug smuggling and illegal immigrants
and consequently folks needed to be identified before they could go on.

Although having no jurisdiction over the subject matter at hand, the U.S.
Customs Agent forcefully entered the conversation and demanded that I
comply with the request along with some other commentary.

I asked the U.S. Customs Agent who had jurisdictional & operational
control over the check point. The officer in charge indicated at this time
that it was a joint task force consisting of the Tohono O'odham, U.S.
Customs, & INS.

I indicated the Supreme Court had made a distinction between check points
set up for public safety, i.e. sobriety check points, Vs law enforcement
checkpoints and that only the former met Constitutional muster when no
individualized probable cause is present. I then indicated the following:

Due to the presence of U.S. Customs and INS/Border Patrol Agents -
law enforcement as opposed to public safety was obviously a fundamental
aspect of the check point.

The detective indicated he was satisfied I had not been drinking & hence
any public safety aspect of the check point with regards to me
personally had been satisfied

A license check primarily serves a law enforcement function - not a public
safety issue - thus a mandatory license check relating to a 'public safety'
stop with no actual or perceived wrongdoing is onerous on my right to
travel unmolested on the public highways.

The officers present were clearly getting agitated at this point. The
officer in charge asked me to pull the vehicle over to the side of the
road. I asked him why and he replied they needed to ask me further
questions.

I asked if I was being detained. He clearly indicated I was NOT being
detained.

I indicated that if I was not being detained then it follows that I must
be free to leave.

At this point a different officer (Tohono O'odham K-9 unit) indicated he
had had enough of this and that I was to turn off the vehicle and exit the
car. A few of the officers present put their hands on their guns.

I slowly turned off the vehicle as commanded, removed the keys from the
ignition and placed the keys in full view on the dashboard. I then sat
very still in the front seat with my hands in full view for all to see.

The driver side door was opened, my seatbelt was unclipped by one of the
enforcement agents, and I was forcibly removed from the vehicle and laid
down on the pavement . My hands were placed behind my back and I was
handcuffed. I was then picked up under the armpits and dragged off the
road over to one of the police vehicles.

At no point was I informed whether or not I was under arrest, nor was I
read my miranda rights.

I was left on the ground for the next 30-40 minutes (time not exact). A
few times, the K-9 officer came over acting hostile & belligerent & made
several less than exemplary comments regarding myself. I heard the U.S.
Customs enforcer refer to me as a 'Peace Protester' & the K-9 officer
refer to me as a 'Green Freak'. While I like the color green - neither
reference was accurate or justified.

Early on, my wallet was taken from me and my drivers license removed from
the wallet presumably to run a check. At my request, the detective counted
the money in my wallet before walking off with it. It was returned with my
driver's license presumably after the check was complete and no further
reason to hold on to it was found.

During my time on the ground, I observed checkpoint operations. For the
first 40 minutes - vehicles were NOT stopped in any particular order or
pattern. Officers were clearly using their own judgment to determine which
vehicles were stopped and which were waved through. At times, several
vehicles in a row would be stopped followed by 10 or so vehicles allowed
to pass unmolested. This would be followed by stopping every second or
third vehicle and so on. After an hour or so, the procedure appeared to
become more repetitive with nearly every vehicle being stopped but the
first half of the operation was clearly arbitrary in nature. Everyone was
NOT treated the same from the inception of the operation.

While watching the vehicles being stopped, I also noticed enforcement
officers checking license plates against registrations along with
demanding that car drivers pop their trunks so they could be searched. The
purpose of such an action didn't appear related to sobriety checks but
rather the search for contraband material. Sometime during this time
frame, I observed one of the Tohono O'odham officers approach the Customs
enforcer and gesture at a vehicle that had just passed. The Customs
enforcer started running toward his vehicle. This made it clear that
information gathered by Tohono O'odham officers during the 'sobriety
checks' was being shared directly with federal enforcement agents
for law enforcement purposes.

As time went on, what appeared to be illegal immigrants were loaded into
an INS bus. These individuals were most likely identified by their failure
to have a drivers license - indicating the license check, for which I was
being detained, was being used to share information with the INS for
federal law enforcement purposes. Additionally I was informed later that
several hundred pounds of pot had been seized (probably through the trunk
searches being conducted by the enforcement officers at the check point.)

After some time had passed, the detective came over and informed me that a
citation was being drawn up & I would have the option of either signing it
and being released on scene or not signing it and being brought down to
the Pima County Jail in Ajo for processing. Upon his return, I opted not
to sign and was lead over to one of the Tohono O'odham vehicles to await
transport.

While waiting, I was informed my boss had been reached and that he was
heading down to the scene to recover the vehicle and I would be allowed to
talk with him at that time. Another hour passed before my boss and a
co-worker arrived from the University. I talked with them at length
regarding the situation and decided to sign the Arizona Traffic Ticket &
Complaint so I could leave and start preparing my defense.

After signing the complaint, we conversed with the detective and the
officer in charge. They indicated that while they have jurisdiction to
enforce State laws on the section of the highway nearest their
reservation, because I was not a citizen of the reservation my case would
be transferred to the jurisdiction of Pima County.

I asked if there would be a problem with recording the license plate
numbers and other marking of law enforcement vehicles present. The officer
in charge indicated that was fine at which point I proceeded to do exactly
that. The list appears below:

INS/Border Patrol:
H9739 J-25037
H9483 J-25581
E0703 J-26973
U1192 J22316 (Bus containing alleged illegal immigrants)

Tohono O'odham:
83251 G-415CB
75781 G-450CB
30939 G-874CZ (w/trailer - G-590CJ)
51420 G-135CE
92432 G-461CE
83254 G-413CB

Unmarked:
CA-52937 Blue Dodge 4x4
CA-50064 Silver Dodge 4x4
G-34 5DD White Crown Victoria
G-419DD White Ford Expedition
CB-88166 White Crown Victoria
CB-32748 White utility truck

Tow vehicles were on site a ways off as well as many vehicles that had
been forced to pull over for further questioning. There was a pile of
unopened containers of alcohol off to the side as well. At this point we
departed the scene.

I was cited with two class 2 misdeamenors - each of which carries a
maximum jail time of 4 months and a maximum monetary fine of $750.00:

* ARS 28-1595B - Operator fails/refuses to exhibit drivers' license

* ARS 28-622A - Failure to obey officer while directing traffic

It would appear that it is now unlawful to drive home from work these days
without getting proper clearance from the local authorities.

My initial court date has been set for January 3, 2003 at:

Pima County Justice Court JP#03
111 Lamina Ave.
Ajo, AZ 85321
520-387-7684

I will be seeking a change of venue to Tucson, Arizona if at all possible.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: jjones
I don't understand why anyone would consider this guy an asshole or jackass. He was polite and civil to the woman. Apparently he seems to have been justified in his actions as he was ultimately free to go. Was this checkpoint illegal? Or if not technically illegal to operate, was it outside of its jurisdiction of enforcement?

Basically its not illegal to stop mass populations, however without probable cause they are not permited to detain or search. Individual states have taken different positions on stopping individual persons and asking for ID. Most law enforcement would never take you into custody if you refused to show ID, however that seems to be changing also.

The problem is until recent years(20 or so) it was usually considered illegal to stop the masses. I believe the reason that sobriety checkpoints were allowed was on the premise that driving is a priviledge and not a right, therfore they can ask to see your DL. If they detect alcohol, they have PC, I could very well be wrong on that though.

Our Forefathers had enough vision to predict that lazy gov'ts would try to group us all together and tear away our rights. They gov't is using the loopholes.


The average citizen is not exactly sure of their rights and usualy comply out of fear.

 

[daniel1113]

I was going to write a response to those in this thread against the actions taken by this gentleman, but everything I want to say has already been stated by someone much more eloquent than I:

What is the price-current of an honest man and patriot today? They hesitate, and they regret, and sometimes they petition; but they do nothing in earnest and with effect. They will wait, well disposed, for others to remedy the evil, that they may no longer have it to regret. At most, they give up only a cheap vote, and a feeble countenance and Godspeed, to the right, as it goes by them. There are nine hundred and ninety-nine patrons of virtue to one virtuous man. But it is easier to deal with the real possessor of a thing than with the temporary guardian of it.

Those who, while they disapprove of the character and measures of a government, yield to it their allegiance and support are undoubtedly its most conscientious supporters, and so frequently the most serious obstacles to reform.

Under a government which imprisons unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison.

It costs me less in every sense to incur the penalty of disobedience to the State than it would to obey. I should feel as if I were worth less in that case.

The authority of government, even such as I am willing to submit to--for I will cheerfully obey those who know and can do better than I, and in many things even those who neither know nor can do so well--is still an impure one: to be strictly just, it must have the sanction and consent of the governed. It can have no pure right over my person and property but what I concede to it.

Henry David Thoreau

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: 1prophet
This guy wasn't so lucky.

Text


Good example of why these checkpoints should be not allowed. Citizens are exposed to the super cops that want to throw their weight around when challenged. Apparently that case is still in the corts and here is a bunch of info w/ updates.

Text

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: palehorse74
uhh... wtf does this, or my challenge to jpeyton, have to do with the TSA?!

save your TSA rant for another day and thread...

Uhhh... He compared these checkpoints to airport security. You asked him to supply facts indicating that these are ineffective. Try to keep up. And I have posted several threads about the ridiculous nature of TSA screening, though you have been noticeably absent in them.

...and then, after he made a sweeping summary statement that included the word "both," I rightfully identified the connection of the two types of checkpoints as being pulled directly out of his arse.

I happen to agree with the TSA side of the debate... but I don't believe it's very relevant in this case. Checkpoints, such as those in the OP, done in the name of public safety, have been a semi-effective means of finding illegals, for decades -- and they happen to be done in direct response to known tactics used by the illegals everywhere along the border.

My point still stands: that is, if you are trying to compare them to TSA screening, you're out in left field.