How to handle a homeland security checkpoint.

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: maluckey
Did he act like a criminal Yup!

Just a second there, professor. What does it mean to "act like a criminal?" The guy knows his rights and exercised them. How does that make him appear guilty? Like I have posted many times before, the entire notion of a "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" mentality is exactly what the government is trying to instill in its citizenry. This mentality inhibits many legal behaviors and penalizes those who stand up for themselves while staying within their constitutionally-protected rights. And you say that this makes them "seem guilty?" :Q

I would be more than happy to waste a few minutes of my day to stand up for my rights and demonstrate that I'm not going to roll over just to make an unreasonable request easier for the one making it.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Perry404
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...qMN6XI&feature=related


Lol :laugh: Nicely done.

That is beautifully done! Bravo!

Listen up folks he just taught you how to deal with any police stop.

Thanks Perry :thumbsup:

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
That guy is a total jackass. No matter how you feel about the checkpoints the guy is a complete tool. It's one thing to oppose the checkpoints but it's a totally different thing to be a complete asshole like this guy is. He was trying to instigate a confrontation so he could get it on film. Grade F'n A moron is what he is.

Wrong, he was only using his Rights as a Citizen. Instead of looking at this like something bad, listen and learn what he just taught you.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Not when you're in an area known for being a corridor for illegal immigrants to travel through.

Checkpoints like these are just showboating. They serve the exact same purpose as all the extra "security" we have at airport security checkpoints since 9/11. Both are highly visible to the public, so people "see" their tax dollars at work, but both are highly ineffective.

The fact is, we need drastic fundamental changes in the way we approach things like homeland security. Throwing more money at it (and hiring more BP agents) will have the exact same effect that increased funding (and hiring more DEA agents) had on the war on drugs; and we know how big a joke that war has become. Hiring more TSA agents is just as big of a joke; I see just as many sitting on their asses as there are manning the security checkpoints.

Security AT the border is where it is most effective. Once on our soil, the effectiveness of security efforts drop dramatically. We should concentrate our time, energy, and money where it is most effective, instead of harassing scores of citizens in dragnets that *might* snag an unlucky few illegals.

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Every time I think I've seen the worst from jpeyton, he goes even lower...

Nothing could be further from my mind than what you feel about my positions.

 

[maluckey]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Not when you're in an area known for being a corridor for illegal immigrants to travel through.

Checkpoints like these are just showboating. They serve the exact same purpose as all the extra "security" we have at airport security checkpoints since 9/11. Both are highly visible to the public, so people "see" their tax dollars at work, but both are highly ineffective.

The fact is, we need drastic fundamental changes in the way we approach things like homeland security. Throwing more money at it (and hiring more BP agents) will have the exact same effect that increased funding (and hiring more DEA agents) had on the war on drugs; and we know how big a joke that war has become. Hiring more TSA agents is just as big of a joke; I see just as many sitting on their asses as there are manning the security checkpoints.

Security AT the border is where it is most effective. Once on our soil, the effectiveness of security efforts drop dramatically. We should concentrate our time, energy, and money where it is most effective, instead of harassing scores of citizens in dragnets that *might* snag an unlucky few illegals.

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Every time I think I've seen the worst from jpeyton, he goes even lower...

Nothing could be further from my mind than what you feel about my positions.

Your first paragraph has failed to raise any valid point, but your second paragraph may be the best post that I have read of yours.

It's unfortunate that so long as people feel that their rights to be an asshat MAY be restricted, and so long as politics prevents ICE from fully enforcing the current laws, we are stuck with what we have. It's one of the reasons that I left INS for greener pastures where politics was less inherent.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Checkpoints like these are just showboating. They serve the exact same purpose as all the extra "security" we have at airport security checkpoints since 9/11. Both are highly visible to the public, so people "see" their tax dollars at work, but both are highly ineffective.

source? where did you derive these "facts" of yours?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
source? where did you derive these "facts" of yours?

I can prove on an abacus how ineffective TSA is. Anyone with access to the internet can find ways to smuggle things past them, and that's only necessary if they're too stupid to figure it out for themselves. I'm not allowed to pack water in my carry-on luggage? Fine, I'll do what people do when they go to the movie theaters and smuggle it in my pants, socks, or what have you. I can take anything I need to make an explosive device through a metal detector with no questions asked, just like I can get any metallic objects through the x-ray with no questions asked. The whole system is just to make people feel good and caters to those who don't understand how these things actually work. Those of us who do understand just get extremely frustrated because I have to throw away my one ounce of remaining toothpaste because I was stupid enough to take it out and put it in a bag for them to see and, despite there being only one ounce left, the container says five.

It would be possible to make the checkpoints somewhat efficacious at catching these things, but not with the current mindset of the officials making the rules. Even if I designed one with modern chemical sensors, effective detection methods, and training techniques, people who were smart enough could still get their stuff through. People just don't want to hear this because it's disconcerting to think that anyone on your plane could have a knife in their toiletry kit (which I did for 19 flights after 9/11, completely by accident, before someone finally caught it in an x-ray and confiscated it). Bottom line: it's all a show.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: palehorse74
source? where did you derive these "facts" of yours?

I can prove on an abacus how ineffective TSA is. Anyone with access to the internet can find ways to smuggle things past them, and that's only necessary if they're too stupid to figure it out for themselves. I'm not allowed to pack water in my carry-on luggage? Fine, I'll do what people do when they go to the movie theaters and smuggle it in my pants, socks, or what have you. I can take anything I need to make an explosive device through a metal detector with no questions asked, just like I can get any metallic objects through the x-ray with no questions asked. The whole system is just to make people feel good and caters to those who don't understand how these things actually work. Those of us who do understand just get extremely frustrated because I have to throw away my one ounce of remaining toothpaste because I was stupid enough to take it out and put it in a bag for them to see and, despite there being only one ounce left, the container says five.

It would be possible to make the checkpoints somewhat efficacious at catching these things, but not with the current mindset of the officials making the rules. Even if I designed one with modern chemical sensors, effective detection methods, and training techniques, people who were smart enough could still get their stuff through. People just don't want to hear this because it's disconcerting to think that anyone on your plane could have a knife in their toiletry kit (which I did for 19 flights after 9/11, completely by accident, before someone finally caught it in an x-ray and confiscated it). Bottom line: it's all a show.

uhh... wtf does this, or my challenge to jpeyton, have to do with the TSA?!

save your TSA rant for another day and thread...

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Checkpoints like these are just showboating. They serve the exact same purpose as all the extra "security" we have at airport security checkpoints since 9/11. Both are highly visible to the public, so people "see" their tax dollars at work, but both are highly ineffective.

source? where did you derive these "facts" of yours?

You tell me. What's the ratio of seized shampoo bottles to foiled terrorist plots at these checkpoints?

If you were a terrorist (with an IQ higher than 70), would you try sneaking something past airport detectors? Would you try hijacking an jetliner with reinforced cockpit doors?

It's the year 2008, but we still have ex-convenient store clerks rifling through our carry-ons and inspecting our shoes. I'd feel much safer if we had effective electronic equipment scanning EVERY passenger quickly and thoroughly, versus the slow "empty your pockets" checkpoints and random shake-downs for <10% of passengers.

Electronic scanning is more effective anyway because it sees things overtly and covertly hidden. If I wanted to hide contraband in my carry-ons, would it be sitting out in the open, or in a hidden compartment not visible to human eyes?

In summary, the proper post-9/11 response to airport security would have been to invest in precision tools and fewer highly specialized/skilled operators. What we got was the typical big-dumb-sledgehammer government response: more unskilled manpower, more bureaucracy, long checkpoint lines, layers of inept rules and policies, etc.

The response to border security has been the same. More agents aren't going to fix the problem. We need to re-balance the ratio in favor of more investment for high-tech tools and training, and less investment in handing out badges and guns.

My guess is that if we have another terrorist attack on our soil, there is a 99.99999% probability it won't involve a jetliner. There are plenty of soft targets all over our country that we've managed to ignore in our failed quest to reduce global terrorism.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: palehorse74
source? where did you derive these "facts" of yours?

I can prove on an abacus how ineffective TSA is. Anyone with access to the internet can find ways to smuggle things past them, and that's only necessary if they're too stupid to figure it out for themselves. I'm not allowed to pack water in my carry-on luggage? Fine, I'll do what people do when they go to the movie theaters and smuggle it in my pants, socks, or what have you. I can take anything I need to make an explosive device through a metal detector with no questions asked, just like I can get any metallic objects through the x-ray with no questions asked. The whole system is just to make people feel good and caters to those who don't understand how these things actually work. Those of us who do understand just get extremely frustrated because I have to throw away my one ounce of remaining toothpaste because I was stupid enough to take it out and put it in a bag for them to see and, despite there being only one ounce left, the container says five.

It would be possible to make the checkpoints somewhat efficacious at catching these things, but not with the current mindset of the officials making the rules. Even if I designed one with modern chemical sensors, effective detection methods, and training techniques, people who were smart enough could still get their stuff through. People just don't want to hear this because it's disconcerting to think that anyone on your plane could have a knife in their toiletry kit (which I did for 19 flights after 9/11, completely by accident, before someone finally caught it in an x-ray and confiscated it). Bottom line: it's all a show.

Yup, you can read plenty of threads on AR15.com and THR where people have gotten on the plane, then realized they still had their gun on them. Security is just a show.

 

[gentobu]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: palehorse74
source? where did you derive these "facts" of yours?

I can prove on an abacus how ineffective TSA is. Anyone with access to the internet can find ways to smuggle things past them, and that's only necessary if they're too stupid to figure it out for themselves. I'm not allowed to pack water in my carry-on luggage? Fine, I'll do what people do when they go to the movie theaters and smuggle it in my pants, socks, or what have you. I can take anything I need to make an explosive device through a metal detector with no questions asked, just like I can get any metallic objects through the x-ray with no questions asked. The whole system is just to make people feel good and caters to those who don't understand how these things actually work. Those of us who do understand just get extremely frustrated because I have to throw away my one ounce of remaining toothpaste because I was stupid enough to take it out and put it in a bag for them to see and, despite there being only one ounce left, the container says five.

It would be possible to make the checkpoints somewhat efficacious at catching these things, but not with the current mindset of the officials making the rules. Even if I designed one with modern chemical sensors, effective detection methods, and training techniques, people who were smart enough could still get their stuff through. People just don't want to hear this because it's disconcerting to think that anyone on your plane could have a knife in their toiletry kit (which I did for 19 flights after 9/11, completely by accident, before someone finally caught it in an x-ray and confiscated it). Bottom line: it's all a show.

Well said, but none of this changes the fact that the guy in the video is being an ass. If he wants change, he should take his issue up with someone who has the power to make that change. What he did is like yelling at a cashier because he doesn't like corporate policy. It changes nothing, and it ends up pissing off the cashier and the people waiting in line. He was not "standing up for his rights", he was acting like a stubborn bratty child.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: gentobu
Well said, but none of this changes the fact that the guy in the video is being an ass. If he wants change, he should take his issue up with someone who has the power to make that change. What he did is like yelling at a cashier because he doesn't like corporate policy. It changes nothing, and it ends up pissing off the cashier and the people waiting in line. He was not "standing up for his rights", he was acting like a stubborn bratty child.

I disagree; civil disobedience is an effective form of protest and has been used many times throughout history when the "people in power" wouldn't listen.

 

[maluckey]

jpeyton,

So now the "photographer" IS an asshat? First he's not and now he is? Which is it?

You can't make a soceity without rule of law function to the benefit of the common man. Never in history has it succeeded. This guy is a jerk, harassing an officer acting under the spirit and color of the law.

one more reason that the photographer is an ass

Of course these things are not uncommon around the border, and while this ass was demonstrating his ignorance and lack of caring for other who may have been waiting for him to pass, or god forbid, for these checkpoint officers to find a narco-trafficker or kidnapper, nothing useful came of his encounter except that the photographer demonstrated that he's a tool.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: maluckey
jpeyton,

So now the "photographer" IS an asshat? First he's not and now he is? Which is it?

I never said that; I've defended the photographer and his actions in every post I've made.

 

[gentobu]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: gentobu
Well said, but none of this changes the fact that the guy in the video is being an ass. If he wants change, he should take his issue up with someone who has the power to make that change. What he did is like yelling at a cashier because he doesn't like corporate policy. It changes nothing, and it ends up pissing off the cashier and the people waiting in line. He was not "standing up for his rights", he was acting like a stubborn bratty child.

I disagree; civil disobedience is an effective form of protest and has been used many times throughout history when the "people in power" wouldn't listen.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, because I just don't see how being an ass can be an effective form of protest. Civil disobedience is fine, but choose your battles. Make your case and present it like an adult, not like a bratty little kid.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Checkpoints like these are just showboating. They serve the exact same purpose as all the extra "security" we have at airport security checkpoints since 9/11. Both are highly visible to the public, so people "see" their tax dollars at work, but both are highly ineffective.

source? where did you derive these "facts" of yours?

You tell me. What's the ratio of seized shampoo bottles to foiled terrorist plots at these checkpoints?

If you were a terrorist (with an IQ higher than 70), would you try sneaking something past airport detectors? Would you try hijacking an jetliner with reinforced cockpit doors?

It's the year 2008, but we still have ex-convenient store clerks rifling through our carry-ons and inspecting our shoes. I'd feel much safer if we had effective electronic equipment scanning EVERY passenger quickly and thoroughly, versus the slow "empty your pockets" checkpoints and random shake-downs for <10% of passengers.

Electronic scanning is more effective anyway because it sees things overtly and covertly hidden. If I wanted to hide contraband in my carry-ons, would it be sitting out in the open, or in a hidden compartment not visible to human eyes?

In summary, the proper post-9/11 response to airport security would have been to invest in precision tools and fewer highly specialized/skilled operators. What we got was the typical big-dumb-sledgehammer government response: more unskilled manpower, more bureaucracy, long checkpoint lines, layers of inept rules and policies, etc.

The response to border security has been the same. More agents aren't going to fix the problem. We need to re-balance the ratio in favor of more investment for high-tech tools and training, and less investment in handing out badges and guns.

My guess is that if we have another terrorist attack on our soil, there is a 99.99999% probability it won't involve a jetliner. There are plenty of soft targets all over our country that we've managed to ignore in our failed quest to reduce global terrorism.

oh, OK... so you pulled this connection to airport screening straight out of your ass... got it.

:roll:

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: gentobu

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: gentobu
Well said, but none of this changes the fact that the guy in the video is being an ass. If he wants change, he should take his issue up with someone who has the power to make that change. What he did is like yelling at a cashier because he doesn't like corporate policy. It changes nothing, and it ends up pissing off the cashier and the people waiting in line. He was not "standing up for his rights", he was acting like a stubborn bratty child.

I disagree; civil disobedience is an effective form of protest and has been used many times throughout history when the "people in power" wouldn't listen.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on this, because I just don't see how being an ass can be an effective form of protest. Civil disobedience is fine, but choose your battles. Make your case and present it like an adult, not like a bratty little kid.

Sorry, he used his Rights the way they are meant to be used. We are not subjects to a master. The methods he used were correct and just. Police officers (or any law enforcement for that matter) are taught and very adept at using coercive language to achieve compliance. The only thing is, they only have that power over you by your answers and actions. If you stick to the line of questioning in this video, you do not allow their coercive language to take hold. How many of the people who pass through those checkpoints nonchalantly just go with it? They don't even know they have the Right by Law to resist inspection without cause. We too freely these days give up our authority to anyone in uniform. More and more people need to do this in every instance of encounter with Law Enforcement. Thats part of the reason why we keep losing ground on the Civil Liberties front, no one knows what to say or how to stop it. Thank God for intelligent and helpful people like the guy in th evideo. Few and far between IMO.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: maluckey
jpeyton,

So now the "photographer" IS an asshat? First he's not and now he is? Which is it?

You can't make a soceity without rule of law function to the benefit of the common man. Never in history has it succeeded. This guy is a jerk, harassing an officer acting under the spirit and color of the law.

one more reason that the photographer is an ass

Of course these things are not uncommon around the border, and while this ass was demonstrating his ignorance and lack of caring for other who may have been waiting for him to pass, or god forbid, for these checkpoint officers to find a narco-trafficker or kidnapper, nothing useful came of his encounter except that the photographer demonstrated that he's a tool.

You say delaying the efforts of the boarder patrol agent as if it was a bad thing. The more time they waste dealing with people who know their rights the less they can abuse the less knowledgeable.

 

[BoomerD]

They should have tasered the dick and gotten his compliance the old-fashioned way...by beating it out of him.

 

[bbdub333]

How many of the people who pass through those checkpoints nonchalantly just go with it?

I'd wager that it's the same as the number of people who continue on to their destination within 10 seconds of stopping.

 

[alphatarget1]

On my way from CA to TX I came across one of these things (well it was more like a station) on I-10 and they just waved me through.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

This guy was being a prick. If more people were pricks like him maybe the government would be held to within their bounds instead of overstepping them on a habitual basis.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

How many of the people who pass through those checkpoints nonchalantly just go with it?

I'd wager that it's the same as the number of people who continue on to their destination within 10 seconds of stopping.

Time is not the issue.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: maluckey
jpeyton,

So now the "photographer" IS an asshat? First he's not and now he is? Which is it?

You can't make a soceity without rule of law function to the benefit of the common man. Never in history has it succeeded. This guy is a jerk, harassing an officer acting under the spirit and color of the law.

one more reason that the photographer is an ass

Of course these things are not uncommon around the border, and while this ass was demonstrating his ignorance and lack of caring for other who may have been waiting for him to pass, or god forbid, for these checkpoint officers to find a narco-trafficker or kidnapper, nothing useful came of his encounter except that the photographer demonstrated that he's a tool.

spirit and color of the law..wtf does that mean

 

[Mavtek3100]

I fucking loved what that guy did! Rock ON!