How to change up my routine?

[KoolDrew]

What workout are you on that has those three on the same day?

Here's what my routine looks like right now...

Monday:

Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
RDL 3x5
Rows 3x5

Wednesday

Deadlift 3x5
OH Press 3x5
Front Squat 3x5
Pull-ups 3x5

Friday: Same as Monday

I've been slacking on my training so I'm doing all this rather light until I work back up and will likely make adjustments from there.

3. I don't actually know biology well enough to say at what rate muscle can physically grow - do you? The "7 pounds" I mentioned was actually over a two week period (not one week) and I'd be curious how much of that, according to biology & physics, could be pure muscle mass? At any rate, 7lbs is certainly a huge amount, but not an uncommon one when drinking 1 gallon of milk a day.

From what I've read it's around 0.5lb a week, but as you get more advanced it will obviously progressively get lower. It is also greatly effected by many other things, but that's a good general figure. That's why I think its ridiculous to try to gain much more than that, all you're doing is adding fat beyond that. You can gain a bit more fat if you wish, but you're just going to have to diet it off after, which is why I prefer a much longer gradual bulking cycle with little fat gain (I don't let myself get over 12%, but I also start at around 8%), and a shorter dieting cycle. Aiming for 0.5lb-1lb weight gain while bulking and 1-1.5lb weight loss while cutting.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: KoolDrew
From what I've read it's around 0.5lb a week, but as you get more advanced it will obviously progressively get lower. It is also greatly effected by many other things, but that's a good general figure. That's why I think its ridiculous to try to gain much more than that, all you're doing is adding fat beyond that. You can gain a bit more fat if you wish, but you're just going to have to diet it off after, which is why I prefer a much longer gradual bulking cycle with little fat gain (I don't let myself get over 12%, but I also start at around 8%), and a shorter dieting cycle. Aiming for 0.5lb-1lb weight gain while bulking and 1-1.5lb weight loss while cutting.

Got a link to an article or the name of a book I can look at for that?

 

[KoolDrew]

A quick search brought me to a T-Nation article...

Under the best possible circumstances (perfect diet, training, supplementation, and recovery strategies) the average male body can manufacture between 0.25 and 0.5 pounds of dry muscle tissue per week. That is the amount your natural body chemistry will allow you to build. So we're talking about around one or two pounds per month. It may not sound like much, but that can add up to twelve to twenty pounds over one year of training.

Understand that it's possible to gain more weight without adding fat because when you increase your muscle size you also increase glycogen and water storage in those muscles. More muscle equals more glycogen.

A trained individual can store up to 40g of glycogen per 100g of muscle tissue. So if you're gaining ten pounds of new muscle (4545g) you'll also increase glycogen storage by around four pounds (1.8kg). So if you gain ten pounds of muscle, your scale gain will actually be closer to fourteen pounds (if you didn't gain any fat).

Chances are if you're gaining more than three pounds per month, you're gaining some fat.

Unfortunately, no references to back it up. I could look for some, but I'd say that's pretty accurate.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1268956

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: KoolDrew
A quick search brought me to a T-Nation article...

Under the best possible circumstances (perfect diet, training, supplementation, and recovery strategies) the average male body can manufacture between 0.25 and 0.5 pounds of dry muscle tissue per week. That is the amount your natural body chemistry will allow you to build. So we're talking about around one or two pounds per month. It may not sound like much, but that can add up to twelve to twenty pounds over one year of training.

Understand that it's possible to gain more weight without adding fat because when you increase your muscle size you also increase glycogen and water storage in those muscles. More muscle equals more glycogen.

A trained individual can store up to 40g of glycogen per 100g of muscle tissue. So if you're gaining ten pounds of new muscle (4545g) you'll also increase glycogen storage by around four pounds (1.8kg). So if you gain ten pounds of muscle, your scale gain will actually be closer to fourteen pounds (if you didn't gain any fat).

Chances are if you're gaining more than three pounds per month, you're gaining some fat.

Unfortunately, no references to back it up. I could look for some, but I'd say that's pretty accurate.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1268956

a very interesting read, thanks. i do wish he had some references and i could find more info, but it's great to see this unique perspective.

 

[TecHNooB]

So how long does it take to get huge from doing starting strength? How long do you have to do the main workouts before you become simply huge?

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: brikis98

a very interesting read, thanks. i do wish he had some references and i could find more info, but it's great to see this unique perspective.

I wouldn't call conventional wisdom unique. It can be wrong (in this case, I don't think it is), but by definition it is not unique.

 

[KoolDrew]

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
So how long does it take to get huge from doing starting strength? How long do you have to do the main workouts before you become simply huge?

Depends on your definition of huge, genetics, diet, recovery, etc. You won't be able to do SS forever either, eventually you will reach a point where you cannot handle volume like that.

 

[MegaVovaN]

Drew is only 4 posts away from 8888 Eight is a lucky number in China. That's why Olympics will start at time/date that has crapload of 8's in it.

That T article basically says that what I am doing is right

Thanks for the bicep exercise suggestions, I'll think about which ones to do.

by the way... big mile stone = 100 KG deadlift (220 lb) today, then when I get 225 lb I'll finally have two 45's a side!!!

I am still going to track my food and activities in future, since I burn quite a bit of energy other than lifting....

edit: I am pretty lean now, I can take a pic if you all like. If I flex my abs, top 4 are cut clearly, bottom 2 starting to show...

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: KoolDrew

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
So how long does it take to get huge from doing starting strength? How long do you have to do the main workouts before you become simply huge?

Depends on your definition of huge, genetics, diet, recovery, etc. You won't be able to do SS forever either, eventually you will reach a point where you cannot handle volume like that.

Hm.. huge as in big shoulders, huge chest, wide back, large biceps/tricpes, not ronnie coleman.

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
Drew is only 4 posts away from 8888 Eight is a lucky number in China. That's why Olympics will start at time/date that has crapload of 8's in it.

That T article basically says that what I am doing is right

Thanks for the bicep exercise suggestions, I'll think about which ones to do.

by the way... big mile stone = 100 KG deadlift (220 lb) today, then when I get 225 lb I'll finally have two 45's a side!!!

I am still going to track my food and activities in future, since I burn quite a bit of energy other than lifting....

edit: I am pretty lean now, I can take a pic if you all like. If I flex my abs, top 4 are cut clearly, bottom 2 starting to show...

speaking of food track, the only thing I track on a bulk is protein to make sure I get enough. Carbs are never a problem

 

[MegaVovaN]

TecHNoob: I wanna know how much carbs I eat as well, because I got this crazy idea to run a half marathon (13 miles) in January - while trying to add muscle. I run almost 5 miles now in a training session, so it's gonna take a lot of running (and carbs and calories) to get my base up to 13 miles. Then 13 miles on half marathon in cool January weather (after running in TX summers & near 100% humidity) is gonna be a breeze!

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
So how long does it take to get huge from doing starting strength? How long do you have to do the main workouts before you become simply huge?

This is going to depend on a TON of factors: your age, your sex, height, starting weight, starting abilities, injuries, genetics, diet, rest, how long your body will do a linear progression, other activities, and of course, your definition of huge.

As a *VERY* rough guess, I'd say the average guy (say, 5'10, 175), of high school age (plenty of hormones), who starts in decent shape, has no injuries, does SS exactly as written, eats a very solid diet (decent caloric surplus + 1.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight) and sleeps 8 hours a day will get pretty buff after 1 year and approach "huge" after 2 years. Don't think this info is too useful, but still...

Originally posted by: presidentender
I wouldn't call conventional wisdom unique. It can be wrong (in this case, I don't think it is), but by definition it is not unique.

Since when is the (rough) limit of "around one or two pounds per month [of muscle]" conventional wisdom? Is that something you just toss around the locker room where you live?

Before I read that article, I had never heard this rule of thumb, but I had seen many guys add 20lbs in a month or two. Assuming this article is accurate, this means that in most cases, the vast majority of that weight was fat, water, etc and not muscle. However, these guys ended up looking huge and I would have never guessed that. In fact, even based on my personal experience, I'm still not sure I believe that. I feel like when I started squatting heavy 3 times per week, my legs got MUCH bigger. I have no way of knowing how much muscle that was, but from visual inspection and strength gain, I'd estimate my legs alone added a few pounds in a month, let alone the rest of my body.

To me, this information is rather unique/new and I'm still very interested in verifying its accuracy.

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
TecHNoob: I wanna know how much carbs I eat as well, because I got this crazy idea to run a half marathon (13 miles) in January - while trying to add muscle. I run almost 5 miles now in a training session, so it's gonna take a lot of running (and carbs and calories) to get my base up to 13 miles. Then 13 miles on half marathon in cool January weather (after running in TX summers & near 100% humidity) is gonna be a breeze!

Marathon? An even better reason not to track carbs. Speghetti everyday, I say!

 

[MegaVovaN]

Originally posted by: TecHNooB

Originally posted by: MegaVovaN
TecHNoob: I wanna know how much carbs I eat as well, because I got this crazy idea to run a half marathon (13 miles) in January - while trying to add muscle. I run almost 5 miles now in a training session, so it's gonna take a lot of running (and carbs and calories) to get my base up to 13 miles. Then 13 miles on half marathon in cool January weather (after running in TX summers & near 100% humidity) is gonna be a breeze!

Marathon? An even better reason not to track carbs. Speghetti everyday, I say!

I wanna know if I am eating enough, not if I eat too much Besides Macaroni everyday will get old - FAST.

edit: ironic of me to make a thread asking about curls with a sig like this...

Originally posted by: scootermaster
Listen, I'm doing SS. You all know that. So I'm obviously not slamming it. But there's no reason not to need/want a better explanation than "squats RULE" and "curls are fer gays!"

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Since when is the (rough) limit of "around one or two pounds per month [of muscle]" conventional wisdom? Is that something you just toss around the locker room where you live?

Google around for "maximum muscle gain per year." The "I heard that X is the most you gain" figure varies from 7 to 15 pounds a year, with the biggest gains happening in the first year of lifting. The dissenting opinions are mostly "MY product or weightlifting system SHATTERS this MYTH of 10 lbs/year!"

Yes, this figure is also thrown around where I live (not in the locker room, but in discussion with the guys I've lifted with). I've heard reference to it in Baseball, too; you can tell a hitter's juicing if he adds more than about ten pounds in a year.

For my own anecdote, I worked at Home Depot for a summer, and lifted frequently. I'm a hardgainer and have always had under 10% body fat, usually 5-8%. There was a Burger King in the parking lot, which provided my lunches. I gained ten pounds of "muscle" while working there. Then I told one of the more experienced guys I'd gained ten pounds of muscle. He laughed at me.

The scales said I was ~165 instead of ~155, and the mirror said I was buff, right? Then I took skin folds. I'd added a great deal of body fat without noticing anything. I couldn't see abs or ribs anymore, but didn't take note of it until after the fact, because my chest and delts looked huge. It's true, I got stronger; there is something to be said for bulking. But the weight you gain is never strictly muscle, especially if you put it on that fast.

 

[MegaVovaN]

Well today I did my modified day B.

3x5 squats
3x5 ohp
2x8 cable rows
1x8 DB single arm rows
2x8 standing bb curls (65 lb)
1x8 hammer curls (30 lb)

All in all I was done in just over an hour and OH press went up nicely. (100 lb)

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: presidentender

Google around for "maximum muscle gain per year." The "I heard that X is the most you gain" figure varies from 7 to 15 pounds a year, with the biggest gains happening in the first year of lifting. The dissenting opinions are mostly "MY product or weightlifting system SHATTERS this MYTH of 10 lbs/year!"

Yes, this figure is also thrown around where I live (not in the locker room, but in discussion with the guys I've lifted with). I've heard reference to it in Baseball, too; you can tell a hitter's juicing if he adds more than about ten pounds in a year.

I googled "maximum muscle gain per year" as suggested and the vast majority of the results were people trying to sell you something - their routine, some protein powder, etc. I found 3 resources that, although still lacking proper credibility, look a little believable:

How much muscle can you gain in a year... really?
Maximum amount of muscle you can gain in a week
How much muscle can you gain really

I would not call any of these conclusive, although I have no reason to believe that the article on t-nation is necessarily any more credible. Each of these sites claims a different number from t-nation's 10-15lbs max. One claims it's possible to gain 20lbs in 10-12 weeks (so, max ~80lbs per year?), one claims 0.75lbs per week (~40lbs per year), one claims 2-4% of initial body weight after 6 weeks (and at most ~25lbs the first year).

As few cite any scientific studies, it's honestly hard to say. As I said earlier, from personal experience and anecdotal evidence, 10-15lbs per year, especially for a beginner, seems awfully low. If anything, my gut tells me the maximum rate of muscle growth should at least factor in the person's initial bodyweight, as someone 200lbs can probably add more muscle in a year than a someone who is 120lbs.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: presidentender

Google around for "maximum muscle gain per year." The "I heard that X is the most you gain" figure varies from 7 to 15 pounds a year, with the biggest gains happening in the first year of lifting. The dissenting opinions are mostly "MY product or weightlifting system SHATTERS this MYTH of 10 lbs/year!"

Yes, this figure is also thrown around where I live (not in the locker room, but in discussion with the guys I've lifted with). I've heard reference to it in Baseball, too; you can tell a hitter's juicing if he adds more than about ten pounds in a year.

I googled "maximum muscle gain per year" as suggested and the vast majority of the results were people trying to sell you something - their routine, some protein powder, etc. I found 3 resources that, although still lacking proper credibility, look a little believable:

How much muscle can you gain in a year... really?
Maximum amount of muscle you can gain in a week
How much muscle can you gain really

I would not call any of these conclusive, although I have no reason to believe that the article on t-nation is necessarily any more credible. Each of these sites claims a different number from t-nation's 10-15lbs max. One claims it's possible to gain 20lbs in 10-12 weeks (so, max ~80lbs per year?), one claims 0.75lbs per week (~40lbs per year), one claims 2-4% of initial body weight after 6 weeks (and at most ~25lbs the first year).

As few cite any scientific studies, it's honestly hard to say. As I said earlier, from personal experience and anecdotal evidence, 10-15lbs per year, especially for a beginner, seems awfully low. If anything, my gut tells me the maximum rate of muscle growth should at least factor in the person's initial bodyweight, as someone 200lbs can probably add more muscle in a year than a someone who is 120lbs.

Yeah, Christian Bale between "The Machinist" and "Batman Begins" bulked up rather incredibly- but he was starved very thin, too. I imagine the 10-15 lb figure applies more strongly to people who're already relatively muscular.