How to calculate natural gas cost for my new stove

[DesiPower]

No matter how efficient it is, it cannot compete with electric cook stove, stop wasting your time. Go electric people, gas is a scam

 

[TheSiege]

That's like saying why do you have knives in your house because it has the potential to kill you. More people die from knives and Carbon monoxide poisoning

 

[TheSiege]

No matter how efficient it is, it cannot compete with electric cook stove, stop wasting your time. Go electric people, gas is a scam

We are talking about a gas fireplace. And mine is rated at 99.9% efficient

 

[iRONic]

All my rooms have combination carbon monoxide and smoke detectors. Besides most of that stuff is just scare tactics. My house is so old and drafty that it's really not an issue.

Sounds good. Carry on.

 

[Eug]

That's like saying why do you have knives in your house because it has the potential to kill you. More people die from knives and Carbon monoxide poisoning

No it's not. Don't be so dense.

A stove for cooking has the ability to kill you yes, but if you use it properly, it shouldn't be a problem. By properly one means only for cooking, and with proper ventilation (range hood).

The ones designed for heating are still problematic, but at least they're designed for heating. But they are still not generally recommended as the primary source of heating for a home, for the reasons already mentioned.

A knife has the potential to kill you yes, but if you use it properly, it shouldn't be a problem. ie. Don't stick knives in beds and on chairs and hand machetes to your kids for swordfights.

We are talking about a gas fireplace. And mine is rated at 99.9% efficient

Don't do it. They are illegal in many places for a reason. They are likely not to be used properly if as a main source of heat. With a drafty and old home it's less likely to be lethal, and if brand new and working perfectly it's less likely to be an issue, but the problem is that these things may become problematic over time. Again if you vent them (opening a window) and only use them for an hour or two a couple of times a day, it's probably OK, but not if it's your primary source of heat.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I live in a 1100 square foot home that's not very well insulated (basement not insulated at all) and is very drafty, we get -40's regularly. My gas bill is $100/month.

So, probably less than that. :biggrin:

 

[TheSiege]

No it's not. Don't be so dense.

A stove has the ability to kill you yes, but if you use it properly, it shouldn't be a problem. By properly one means only for cooking, and with proper ventilation (range hood).

A knife has the potential to kill you yes, but if you use it properly, it shouldn't be a problem. ie. Don't stick knives in beds and on chairs and hand machetes to your kids for swordfights.


Don't do it. They are illegal in many places for a reason. They are likely not to be used properly if as a main source of heat. With a drafty and old home it's less likely to be lethal, and if brand new and working perfectly it's less likely to be an issue, but the problem is that these things may become problematic over time. Again if you vent them (opening a window) and only use them for an hour or two a couple of times a day, it's probably OK, but not if it's your primary source of heat.

It's not a cooking stove it's a heating stove

 

[Eug]

It's not a cooking stove it's a heating stove

I edited the post. See above. A heating stove that is not vented is still a problem. They are not recommended to be used as the primary source of heat for a home, because of the risk of CO. In the US, they've managed to be approved in most (but not all) places, but with caveats. In most of Canada, they are simply illegal, probably because people like you will use them like this. If the stove stays perfectly efficient, then CO won't likely be a problem, esp. in a drafty home. But that's expecting too much, since nothing works perfectly forever.

Just get a vented stove with proper ventilation. You'll spend more money, but they're much safer. If the unit can be placed on an exterior wall with no windows nearby, then you're probably all set, and the cost to vent won't even be very much.

 

[rcpratt]

Oh well, he's been informed.

 

[NetWareHead]

It's not a cooking stove it's a heating stove

You have to examine what happens during natural gas combustion. Natural gas is primarily methane (CH4). Combustion: CH4 + 2 O2 = 1 C02 + 2 H20. That is a vent free stove and therefore all of that exhaust product is going back into your home. You are releasing CO2 back into your house.

If by chance the stove malfunctions are does not burn the gas properly, instead of CO2, you are now releasing CO which is carbon monoxide, far more deadly.

I've never understood how vent free fireplaces/stoves are legal. You have an unvented heating appliance, by virtue means that you will run it for far longer periods of time than a gas cooking stove. And by running it that long, you fill your home with the exhaust product. This is also why using your kitchen oven or stove (gas) to heat your home is not recommended, you are sending the exhaust product indoors. And here come vent free fireplaces which do the same thing and are permitted? It makes no sense to me.

On a side note, one of the exhaust products is H2O which is water vapor. if you run a vent free fireplace for long periods of time, you may get humidity or mold issues inside.

I just don't like the design and prefer that anything being burned for heating purposes is vented to atmosphere instead of interior.

 

[Eug]

On a side note, one of the exhaust products is H2O which is water vapor. if you run a vent free fireplace for long periods of time, you may get humidity or mold issues inside.

Another side note: Interestingly, there is a huge debate about gas vs electric ovens because of the moisture. As you know, electricity produces a dry heat, while gas produces a moist heat, which can affect how you approach your cooking.

 

[NetWareHead]

Side note: Interestingly, there is a huge debate about gas vs electric ovens because of the moisture. Electricity produces a dry heat, while gas produces a moist heat, which can affect how you approach your cooking.

yes and for most purposes either oven will produce a satisfactory baked product. Its when you get into specific recipes that require moisture control during the baking cycle that this becomes an issue. What I do is fill a pyrex container with boiling water and put in the oven along with whats baking.

In any event, I prefer gas because the cost of natural gas vs electric is cheaper. This will depend on where you live and the cost per kilowatt-hour vs cost for natural gas therm.

 

[Eug]

I have a gas stove. It's cheaper than dual fuel, and we don't use the oven enough for it to matter that much. For the professional chefs doing high volume where it can matter more, I get the impression they still gravitate to gas though, mainly because it's cheaper as you said.

 

[TheSiege]

You have to examine what happens during natural gas combustion. Natural gas is primarily methane (CH4). Combustion: CH4 + 2 O2 = 1 C02 + 2 H20. That is a vent free stove and therefore all of that exhaust product is going back into your home. You are releasing CO2 back into your house.

If by chance the stove malfunctions are does not burn the gas properly, instead of CO2, you are now releasing CO which is carbon monoxide, far more deadly.

I've never understood how vent free fireplaces/stoves are legal. You have an unvented heating appliance, by virtue means that you will run it for far longer periods of time than a gas cooking stove. And by running it that long, you fill your home with the exhaust product. This is also why using your kitchen oven or stove (gas) to heat your home is not recommended, you are sending the exhaust product indoors. And here come vent free fireplaces which do the same thing and are permitted? It makes no sense to me.

On a side note, one of the exhaust products is H2O which is water vapor. if you run a vent free fireplace for long periods of time, you may get humidity or mold issues inside.

I just don't like the design and prefer that anything being burned for heating purposes is vented to atmosphere instead of interior.

I understand the concerns and appreciate them. With that being said, in regards to it malfunctioning, EVERY heat source has the potential to kill if it malfunctions. Electric, or a furnace or a wood stove. So yes, if it malfunctions I can die, but that is a risk that we all take so that we can have heat in our homes. The problem is that most people still think of vent free stove as a vented releasing the same fumes into the house that they would normal expel out the vent. Its not, at all. This isn't a 85 or 95% efficient furnace. It is 99.9% efficient.
I live in Utah, the 2nd most driest state in the nation, the winters are especially bad. Most people here get nosebleeds because of it. And currently I have a humidifier running to help this. So the added moisture will be welcomed. And it would take A LOT of moisture to cause mold. I mean years of running this thing to cause that.
But I think I will go ahead and buy couple of O2 monitors for my bedrooms, they are only like $25 anyway.

 

[Eug]

I understand the concerns and appreciate them. With that being said, in regards to it malfunctioning, EVERY heat source has the potential to kill if it malfunctions. Electric, or a furnace or a wood stove. So yes, if it malfunctions I can die, but that is a risk that we all take so that we can have heat in our homes. The problem is that most people still think of vent free stove as a vented releasing the same fumes into the house that they would normal expel out the vent. Its not, at all. This isn't a 85 or 95% efficient furnace. It is 99.9% efficient.

It sounds like your decision is already made. However, we are just trying to tell you why that decision is not a good one.

It should be noted that 99.9% efficient stoves are almost never 99.9% efficient, and more importantly, that efficiency can decrease significantly if something goes wrong.

If it's vented, that something-going-wrong won't be anywhere near as big a problem.

Why are you so dead set against getting a vented gas heater? Are you really so cheap that your personal safety doesn't matter?

Have you actually explored getting a vented gas heater/fireplace/stove?

I live in Utah, the 2nd most driest state in the nation, the winters are especially bad. Most people here get nosebleeds because of it. And currently I have a humidifier running to help this. So the added moisture will be welcomed. And it would take A LOT of moisture to cause mold. I mean years of running this thing to cause that.

It sounds like you're trying to come up with reasons to justify this decision, knowing that it's not a recommended choice.

But I think I will go ahead and buy couple of O2 monitors for my bedrooms, they are only like $25 anyway.

Sounds like a bandaid.

 

[NetWareHead]

I understand the concerns and appreciate them. With that being said, in regards to it malfunctioning, EVERY heat source has the potential to kill if it malfunctions. Electric, or a furnace or a wood stove. So yes, if it malfunctions I can die, but that is a risk that we all take so that we can have heat in our homes. The problem is that most people still think of vent free stove as a vented releasing the same fumes into the house that they would normal expel out the vent. Its not, at all. This isn't a 85 or 95% efficient furnace. It is 99.9% efficient.

What do you think 99.9% efficiency does for you? That only measures how much heat you are extracting from the burned gas.

You are ignoring the point that the vent free stove exhaust indoors and as a result you are breathing that back in. Efficiency has nothing to do with carbon monoxide if the stove malfunctions. Even with the stove operating normally and only exhausting CO2 in the house, I'm still not comfortable with that.

The problem with vent free vs vented is that a vented appliance has an additional measure of safety. In the event of a malfunction, at least you have a vent which can carry the deadly exhaust product to a chimney and out to atmosphere. A vent free appliance has no such insurance.

 

[TheSiege]

It sounds like your decision is already made. However, we are just trying to tell you why that decision is not a good one.

It should be noted that 99.9% efficient stoves are almost never 99.9% efficient, and more importantly, that efficiency can decrease significantly if something goes wrong.

If it's vented, that something-going-wrong won't be anywhere near as big a problem.

Why are you so dead set against getting a vented gas heater? Are you really so cheap that your personal safety doesn't matter?

Have you actually explored getting a vented gas heater/fireplace/stove?



It sounds like you're trying to come up with reasons to justify this decision, knowing that it's not a recommended choice.


Sounds like a bandaid.

Well to be fair, I asked informed HVAC technicians at my work. And that's why I chose this route. And it sounds like your ignorance of how these units are tested and how they work is what is scaring you away from them. Much like people were scared of automobiles when they first come out. I would argue that vent free is actually safer than vented. Vent free is designed to burn and reburn. Where vented is not designed to reburn and thus the dangerous fumes are always present. They are just being redirected.

 

[TheSiege]

What do you think 99.9% efficiency does for you? That only measures how much heat you are extracting from the burned gas.

You are ignoring the point that the vent free stove exhaust indoors and as a result you are breathing that back in. Efficiency has nothing to do with carbon monoxide if the stove malfunctions. Even with the stove operating normally and only exhausting CO2 in the house, I'm still not comfortable with that.

The problem with vent free vs vented is that a vented appliance has an additional measure of safety. In the event of a malfunction, at least you have a vent which can carry the deadly exhaust product to a chimney and out to atmosphere. A vent free appliance has no such insurance.

That's not true at all. They have oxygen depletion sensors and I have a CO monitor right above it. Just because something is new and different from what you are used to, it doesn't mean it is inherently more dangerous. You keep mentioning malfunctioning. But that's a moot point everything can malfunction. I'd say electric heat is more dangerous than vent free

 

[TheSiege]

http://www.angieslist.com/articles/are-ventless-fireplaces-safe.htm
This is just some random article, but notice how it says that NO deaths have happened from vent free fireplaces?

 

[NetWareHead]

There is nothing new and different about vent free appliances. Combustion and its products are very well understood. No matter how correctly the stove runs and how much you reburn and recycle, you are still venting CO2 indoors. That is an unchangeable fact of this unit's operation. IMO that should be vented outdoors.

Yes you are correct in that the appliance may never malfunction. But if it does, that is a pretty big life threatening snafu. Especially when the fix for such a situation exists: running a vent outdoors. Perhaps even a vented appliance is not 100% safe either but I trust it more than a vent free.

Anyway, sounds like you have been fully informed. I don't have a dog in this race and I've said what I wanted to say. Good luck.

P.S. Get more than 1 carbon monoxide detector for the house.

 

[TheSiege]

I have a CO in every room hard wired in and a plug in one directly above the stove.

 

[D1gger]

Directly from the product manual:

An unvented room appliance is recommended for use as a secondary heat source rather than as a primary
source. Gas combustion produces water vapour which could occur at the rate of approximately one ounce of
water for every 1,000 BTU/hr of gas input. During the cold weather season, indoor humidity levels tend to be
low. Consequently, this water vapour can enhance the living space. However if a problem should occur:
A) Ensure suffi cient combustion and circulation air
B) Use a dehumidifi er
C) Do not use the unvented room appliance as a primary heat source

http://www.napoleonproducts.com/downloads/fireplaces/manuals/W415-0796.pdf

 

[TheSiege]

Its not recommended, it doesn't say prohibited. And it says not to use it as primary if moisture is a problem.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Do CO detectors also detect high levels of CO2? CO2 is dangerous in high enough concentrations. you will need a lot of plants in that room to make up for not only the extra CO2 but the O2 being used up, and turned to CO2.

Personally I would not heat my home with anything but a closed system (or electric if it was affordable). The beauty of a closed system such as high efficiency furnaces is the combustion is not using inside air nor adding to it.

You also don't want any humidity when it's very cold. It will make the windows frost up, and in some cases even walls or other places that are poorly insulated. When it's -40's I always have to turn off the humidifier completely. I like to try to keep it to at least 15% humidity in the house but at -40 outside I have to sacrifice that if I don't want ice everywhere.

 

[jagec]

No matter how efficient it is, it cannot compete with electric cook stove, stop wasting your time. Go electric people, gas is a scam

Actually, for both cooking and heating purposes, gas is far superior. Gas stoves generally have higher heat output and MUCH faster on/off time compared to electric, and condensing gas furnaces may not be as efficient as electric, but the fuel cost is so much lower that it's a moot point.

Using high-value energy for heating purposes is a scam.

However, OP should seal his leaky house and get a proper furnace instead of this stupid band-aid idea.