How the Koch Brothers Are Killing Public Transit Projects Around the Country

[realibrad]

Please. If you think this self driving car scenario will deliver lower per trip costs or reduce urban congestion you're not thinking clearly.

Transit was my livelihood for 37 years. The reason the RTD ran low utilization routes was to provide some service to far flung areas of the district. The other reason is that organized right wingers who had no intention of ever riding the bus themselves raised Hell at board meetings so they could have the bus that nobody rode. Then we had to prove to them that it was a waste of resources. They often didn't care, anyway, because they're paying for it, goddamnit!

It's part & parcel of the FYGM headset. I mean, you know, as if a 1% sales tax rate is breaking their tender Libertopian balls.

I never said self driving cars would offer lower per trip costs. That is something you put into your own head. I also never said self driving cars reduce congestion. What I did point out is that buses are limited by their route. If you want to go somewhere that a bus does not take you, oh well. The advantage of a car is that it can take you anywhere from point a to point b.

I can get an uber that takes me to the airport in about 30-45min for about $50. If I wanted to take public transit, I could take the bus, to the train, to the bus for a 1.5 to 2 hr trip. It will cost me about $10. That is 3-4 times as long of a trip for about 20% of the cost. There is simply no way to make that faster in cities that are not dense. Public transit simply cannot compete with trips like that.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I never said self driving cars would offer lower per trip costs. That is something you put into your own head. I also never said self driving cars reduce congestion. What I did point out is that buses are limited by their route. If you want to go somewhere that a bus does not take you, oh well. The advantage of a car is that it can take you anywhere from point a to point b.

I can get an uber that takes me to the airport in about 30-45min for about $50. If I wanted to take public transit, I could take the bus, to the train, to the bus for a 1.5 to 2 hr trip. It will cost me about $10. That is 3-4 times as long of a trip for about 20% of the cost. There is simply no way to make that faster in cities that are not dense. Public transit simply cannot compete with trips like that.

Okay by your own admission driverless cars aren't a replacement for public transit (more expensive and higher traffic congestion). Why then is it being used as a reason not to invest in transit? Cabs are successful even in cities with robust transit because it serves a different market. And it will never be a replacement to transit.

 

[Brainonska511]

I never said self driving cars would offer lower per trip costs. That is something you put into your own head. I also never said self driving cars reduce congestion. What I did point out is that buses are limited by their route. If you want to go somewhere that a bus does not take you, oh well. The advantage of a car is that it can take you anywhere from point a to point b.

I can get an uber that takes me to the airport in about 30-45min for about $50. If I wanted to take public transit, I could take the bus, to the train, to the bus for a 1.5 to 2 hr trip. It will cost me about $10. That is 3-4 times as long of a trip for about 20% of the cost. There is simply no way to make that faster in cities that are not dense. Public transit simply cannot compete with trips like that.

Traffic in cities is not bad because everyone is going to the airport in a cab.

The issue is Ubers and lyfts in the city precipitate further congestion, which drives more from public transit because it becomes even slower. Cut congestion, buses will improve (and buses can be further improved by innovations like all door boarding and off board fares)

 

[Jhhnn]

Traffic in cities is not bad because everyone is going to the airport in a cab.

The issue is Ubers and lyfts in the city precipitate further congestion, which drives more from public transit because it becomes even slower. Cut congestion, buses will improve (and buses can be further improved by innovations like all door boarding and off board fares)

Meh. you just put the bottleneck at getting off instead or getting on. It's also a lot easier for operators to inhibit free riders from getting on than getting off, bet on that.

 

[realibrad]

Okay by your own admission driverless cars aren't a replacement for public transit (more expensive and higher traffic congestion). Why then is it being used as a reason not to invest in transit? Cabs are successful even in cities with robust transit because it serves a different market. And it will never be a replacement to transit.

I have never used it as a reason to not invest in Transit. That said, Cabs and eventually Driverless would work together with Transit. When I was in England, I would take transit and then a cab to places where buses sometimes would go, but it would take too long.

 

[realibrad]

Traffic in cities is not bad because everyone is going to the airport in a cab.

The issue is Ubers and lyfts in the city precipitate further congestion, which drives more from public transit because it becomes even slower. Cut congestion, buses will improve (and buses can be further improved by innovations like all door boarding and off board fares)

Did that strawman feel good to build?

 

[fskimospy]

Traffic in cities is not bad because everyone is going to the airport in a cab.

The issue is Ubers and lyfts in the city precipitate further congestion, which drives more from public transit because it becomes even slower. Cut congestion, buses will improve (and buses can be further improved by innovations like all door boarding and off board fares)

I don’t think this makes sense. Why would all car traffic moving slower make people stop taking one type of car and instead take another?

I agree that buses can be improved through offboard fare collection and all door boarding. Even better would be to either add new bus only lanes and light preference or convert already existing car lanes to bus only ones.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I have never used it as a reason to not invest in Transit. That said, Cabs and eventually Driverless would work together with Transit. When I was in England, I would take transit and then a cab to places where buses sometimes would go, but it would take too long.

You might not be making that statement, but municipalities across the country are -- largely due to lobbying from Koch-backed interests like Americans for Prosperity and NoTax4Trax.

I thought this would be a bigger hot button here. Locally this argument always degenerates into a liberal vs conservative shit-show. People have told me, with a straight face I might add, we'd be better off dismantling our transit authority and buying everybody a car. Nevermind the economics of paying for the cars and maintenance. How do we handle the massive influx of cars? Meh, who cares? Cars are freedom and public transit is socialism.

 

[realibrad]

You might not be making that statement, but municipalities across the country are -- largely due to lobbying from Koch-backed interests like Americans for Prosperity and NoTax4Trax.

I thought this would be a bigger hot button here. Locally this argument always degenerates into a liberal vs conservative shit-show. People have told me, with a straight face I might add, we'd be better off dismantling our transit authority and buying everybody a car. Nevermind the economics of paying for the cars and maintenance. How do we handle the massive influx of cars? Meh, who cares? Cars are freedom and public transit is socialism.

How is it not a big hot button issue here? I think almost everyone agrees transit is a good idea on this forum. At worst people will point out when it is done poorly.

There are 2 big issues when it comes to getting people to like new transit.

The first is that almost always its corrupted by those that want to help a group by extending lines to poor areas. The problem with that is they also want a huge system that becomes expensive. So the only way those poor people can afford it is with huge discounts from the municipality. You cant charge people different amounts, so everyone pays the same low amount which is never enough to pay for the system.

The second big issue is the political which uses the first issue to justify its position. It would find another issue if the first was not there, but the first makes the 2nd a lot easier.