How the Koch Brothers Are Killing Public Transit Projects Around the Country

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I often wonder what the state of public transit would be throughout the country without scumbags like the Koch's fighting against every non-highway project.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/climate/koch-brothers-public-transit.html

How the Koch Brothers Are Killing Public Transit Projects Around the Country
June 19, 2018
NASHVILLE, Tenn. — A team of political activists huddled at a Hardee’s one rainy Saturday, wolfing down a breakfast of biscuits and gravy. Then they descended on Antioch, a quiet Nashville suburb, armed with iPads full of voter data and a fiery script.

The group, the local chapter for Americans for Prosperity, which is financed by the oil billionaires Charles G. and David H. Koch to advance conservative causes, fanned out and began strategically knocking on doors. Their targets: voters most likely to oppose a local plan to build light-rail trains, a traffic-easing tunnel and new bus routes.

“Do you agree that raising the sales tax to the highest rate in the nation must be stopped?” Samuel Nienow, one of the organizers, asked a startled man who answered the door at his ranch-style home in March. “Can we count on you to vote ‘no’ on the transit plan?”

In cities and counties across the country — including Little Rock, Ark.; Phoenix, Ariz.; southeast Michigan; central Utah; and here in Tennessee — the Koch brothers are fueling a fight against public transit, an offshoot of their longstanding national crusade for lower taxes and smaller government.

At the heart of their effort is a network of activists who use a sophisticated data service built by the Kochs, called i360, that helps them identify and rally voters who are inclined to their worldview. It is a particularly powerful version of the technologies used by major political parties.

In places like Nashville, Koch-financed activists are finding tremendous success.

Early polling here had suggested that the $5.4 billion transit plan would easily pass. It was backed by the city’s popular mayor and a coalition of businesses. Its supporters had outspent the opposition, and Nashville was choking on cars.

But the outcome of the May 1 ballot stunned the city: a landslide victory for the anti-transit camp, which attacked the plan as a colossal waste of taxpayers’ money.
<snip>

 

[brycejones]

Oil company owners don't like mass transit. AFP is such a bull shit name.

AFKP would be a better name (AstroTurf for Koch Prosperity). The Kochs are all about FYGM and FYIWTY (Fuck You I Will Take Yours)

 

[realibrad]

Hopefully next time the pro side will see this coming and be able to defend it. It was an ambitious plan with a very long pay off, but it seems like it might have been worth doing.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Hopefully next time the pro side will see this coming and be able to defend it. It was an ambitious plan with a very long pay off, but it seems like it might have been worth doing.

The pro-side outspent NoTax4Tracks (Americans for Prosperity), but I can only guess it was less targeted. It's always harder to defend a position than attack it, especially when your trying to convince the ignorant masses. The new narrative being that driverless cars will somehow fix traffic issues in urban areas.

 

[brycejones]

The pro-side outspent NoTax4Tracks (Americans for Prosperity), but I can only guess it was less targeted. It's always harder to defend a position than attack it, especially when your trying to convince the ignorant masses. The new narrative being that driverless cars will somehow fix traffic issues in urban areas.

So do nothing to deal with today's problems hoping a solution is available in 10-20 years.

 

[realibrad]

So do nothing to deal with today's problems hoping a solution is available in 10-20 years.

You clearly did not understand what he said. He was not taking a position on right or wrong.

The pro side spent more and lost. He believes it might have been because it was less targeted. He also says its harder to defend a position than to attack it. Its even harder to defend a position when trying to convince the ignorant masses. There is also a growing idea that self driving cars will SOMEHOW fix traffic in urban areas.

So in that context your question to him seems oddly defensive.

 

[ElFenix]

personal responsibility! the koch bros. entire crusade against government began because one of their companies was held monetarily responsible for not knowing how much benzene its refinery was pumping out. "personal responsibility, but only when and to the extent i choose to be responsible" is bullshit.

 

[brycejones]

You clearly did not understand what he said. He was not taking a position on right or wrong.

The pro side spent more and lost. He believes it might have been because it was less targeted. He also says its harder to defend a position than to attack it. Its even harder to defend a position when trying to convince the ignorant masses. There is also a growing idea that self driving cars will SOMEHOW fix traffic in urban areas.

So in that context your question to him seems oddly defensive.

Slow down there skippy.

First not a question, its missing that ? at the end. Second, I didn't say he took a position, I was attacking the argument in general I don't know his stance. Yes self driving cars are a potential solution, but they are also one that is not exactly a near term solution.

 

[brycejones]

personal responsibility! the koch bros. entire crusade against government began because one of their companies was held monetarily responsible for not knowing how much benzene its refinery was pumping out. "personal responsibility, but only when and to the extent i choose to be responsible" is bullshit.

Hey its easy to be responsible when you can't ever be legally held responsible for anything.

 

[realibrad]

Slow down there skippy.

First not a question, its missing that ? at the end. Second, I didn't say he took a position, I was attacking the argument in general I don't know his stance. Yes self driving cars are a potential solution, but they are also one that is not exactly a near term solution.

Your question stems from the idea that he agrees with ending this. Second he clearly said somehow to self driving cars. I would say that if anything, he probably was on the pro side.

 

[ElFenix]

Your question stems from the idea that he agrees with ending this. Second he clearly said somehow to self driving cars. I would say that if anything, he probably was on the pro side.

you're misreading brycejones post. he was summarizing an argument of transit foes (why spend money now on transit when self driving cars will fix all our problems!). not countering KnightBreed. not every reply is a retort, counter, or argument

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Hey, hey, hey. Can we please get back on topic of how big of scumbags the Koch brothers are?

For the record, driverless cars won't do shit, except make Uber/Lyft actually profitable. Everything else is just a pipedream fantasy foisted on local governments to stupid to know any better. And it'll stay that way as long as road and highway funding is predominantly state and federally sourced, leaving transit to local governmant. It's painfully difficult to get money for infrastructure projects when everybody outside the city lobbies against it.

you're misreading brycejones post. he was summarizing an argument of transit foes (why spend money now on transit when self driving cars will fix all our problems!). not countering KnightBreed. not every reply is a retort, counter, or argument

FWIW, that's how I took it as well.

 

[Jhhnn]

The pro-side outspent NoTax4Tracks (Americans for Prosperity), but I can only guess it was less targeted. It's always harder to defend a position than attack it, especially when your trying to convince the ignorant masses. The new narrative being that driverless cars will somehow fix traffic issues in urban areas.

I agree with you. It's all highly ideological. If there's no profit in it then it simply shouldn't be done. In their capitalist utopia, people who have trouble scraping together bus fare will have to walk. FYGM, Losers! I mean, wtf do you think? that the pie in the sky automated car ride will be cheaper than the bus or the train? It's bullshit, anyway, because the number of automated cars it would take to carry as many people as a bus takes up a helluva lot more space on the road or track.

Transit is a great thing for a lot of people in a very egalitarian sort of way. People of all colors & classes mingle freely on the Denver system, even more so on the NYC system. It's extremely popular here. Even if you don't use it at least those people aren't in your way...

 

[realibrad]

I agree with you. It's all highly ideological. If there's no profit in it then it simply shouldn't be done. In their capitalist utopia, people who have trouble scraping together bus fare will have to walk. FYGM, Losers! I mean, wtf do you think? that the pie in the sky automated car ride will be cheaper than the bus or the train? It's bullshit, anyway, because the number of automated cars it would take to carry as many people as a bus takes up a helluva lot more space on the road or track.

Transit is a great thing for a lot of people in a very egalitarian sort of way. People of all colors & classes mingle freely on the Denver system, even more so on the NYC system. It's extremely popular here. Even if you don't use it at least those people aren't in your way...

If it were about profits, then roads cost more than the cost of a lot of transit.

As for the poor, many of the systems that are a failure happen because they focus on the poor.

The thing about automated cars is not that it would be cheaper, its that it has far more flexibility than transit because it can take you anywhere there are roads. Transit has routes.

Also, the goal of transit should never be about making people equal.

 

[brycejones]

FWIW, that's how I took it as well.

Thanks, having lived in the Koch's home state its amazing the amount of damage they can do.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Hey, hey, hey. Can we please get back on topic of how big of scumbags the Koch brothers are?

For the record, driverless cars won't do shit, except make Uber/Lyft actually profitable. Everything else is just a pipedream fantasy foisted on local governments to stupid to know any better. And it'll stay that way as long as road and highway funding is predominantly state and federally sourced, leaving transit to local governmant. It's painfully difficult to get money for infrastructure projects when everybody outside the city lobbies against it.


FWIW, that's how I took it as well.

Indeed.

I don't agree. Driverless cars are a good thing, and its a necessary step if we want flying "cars" (the only way that becomes feasible is through automated control). It'll actually probably help Google more than either of them (plus, the car manufacturers themselves will look to monetize that - Jaguar for instance is partnering with Waymo; Uber and Lyft are more likely to get squeezed out if anything as neither one of them actually has any advantage in that realm, they'll be lucky to become middlemen when fully autonomous cars become the norm, most likely some bigger tech company like Google or Apple buys them and integrates their ride-hailing software/server/userbase; actually I have a hunch it'll be someone like Comcast or AT&T).
.
Cities are actually starting to move towards banning cars, so the Koch's are probably going to start getting real desperate (electrification is going to straight fuck their fossil fuel holdings; renewable energy is murdering coal, and one single breakthrough has the potential to start doing that for the others) so I expect they're gonna start pulling a lot more shenanigans (like when GM and oil companies bought up the trolleys in California cities in order to sabotage them).

But, we're seeing enthusiasm behind Hyper Loop and other projects, its possible we'll see a big shift in support for infrastructure too.

This is a fun watch (Disney's Magic Highway from 1958): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN69RciAvXw

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I love to see Republican campaigning in Phoenix. The more money wasted the better. Maricopa county hasn't voted anything but the straight party line forever. If there's one place in the country the Koch brothers can take for granted, it's Phoenix.

 

[Moonbeam]

So do nothing to deal with today's problems hoping a solution is available in 10-20 years.

I don't think that is the question. I think it's do nothing today because driver-less cars will soon be a better solution. The important point then becomes what is the truth. Anybody can have an opinion but it seems to me this could be modeled at maybe several universities using the best academic experts in the field and supercomputers. It seems like a question that would be important enough to get right, but I guess I really wouldn't want a society run by scientific knowledge running me. I might have a different opinion, and that would be more important.

 

[sandorski]

All we all just couldn't understand. They have all the money, proving their superiority. We should all just shut up and let them make the world around us.

It's a foolproof plan guys, trust me...

 

[brycejones]

All we all just couldn't understand. They have all the money, proving their superiority. We should all just shut up and let them make the world around us.

It's a foolproof plan guys, trust me...

They are chosen by god. Of course now we're getting into the 3rd generation of this family its now their divine right to rule by wealth.

 

[Jhhnn]

If it were about profits, then roads cost more than the cost of a lot of transit.

As for the poor, many of the systems that are a failure happen because they focus on the poor.

The thing about automated cars is not that it would be cheaper, its that it has far more flexibility than transit because it can take you anywhere there are roads. Transit has routes.

Also, the goal of transit should never be about making people equal.

Please. The goal of transit is to provide something everybody can use at low cost. It doesn't make people equal but it treats everybody equally.

Of course roads cost more & there's profit in building them. And the right wing doesn't fight transit nearly as hard as when it's done by privatized & subsidized operators. Then it's a gravy train if you know how to best beat the cash out of it.

It's perfectly obvious that a bus reduces congestion more than automated cars. It's simple math- most transit coaches seat 55 with room for more to stand. it's 40 ft x 8-1/2 ft. It leaves a helluva lot more room on the road than a comparable number of cars, self driving or not. Transit is also more efficient, meaning lower cost for everybody who uses it.

https://www.citylab.com/transportat...nsit-by-destroying-it/562574/?utm_source=feed

 

[Jhhnn]

All we all just couldn't understand. They have all the money, proving their superiority. We should all just shut up and let them make the world around us.

It's a foolproof plan guys, trust me...

That fundamental deception is what trickle down Reaganomics is all about. Conservatives can't seem to get enough of it even though that's what's destroying small town America. Hedge fund management doesn't give a damn about anybody's problems but their own.

 

[JSt0rm]

no wonder all the right wingers are freaking out about the cali train.

 

[realibrad]

Please. The goal of transit is to provide something everybody can use at low cost. It doesn't make people equal but it treats everybody equally.

Of course roads cost more & there's profit in building them. And the right wing doesn't fight transit nearly as hard as when it's done by privatized & subsidized operators. Then it's a gravy train if you know how to best beat the cash out of it.

It's perfectly obvious that a bus reduces congestion more than automated cars. It's simple math- most transit coaches seat 55 with room for more to stand. it's 40 ft x 8-1/2 ft. It leaves a helluva lot more room on the road than a comparable number of cars, self driving or not. Transit is also more efficient, meaning lower cost for everybody who uses it.

https://www.citylab.com/transportat...nsit-by-destroying-it/562574/?utm_source=feed

Its fine trying to treat everyone equally, but the goal of it should not be anything beyond offering a service equally.

A bus only reduces congestion when it has a route people use. A bus is limited by its route whereas a self driving car is not. This is the reason so much in transport is done with trucks as it offers the ability to go to far more places.

 

[Jhhnn]

Its fine trying to treat everyone equally, but the goal of it should not be anything beyond offering a service equally.

A bus only reduces congestion when it has a route people use. A bus is limited by its route whereas a self driving car is not. This is the reason so much in transport is done with trucks as it offers the ability to go to far more places.

Please. If you think this self driving car scenario will deliver lower per trip costs or reduce urban congestion you're not thinking clearly.

Transit was my livelihood for 37 years. The reason the RTD ran low utilization routes was to provide some service to far flung areas of the district. The other reason is that organized right wingers who had no intention of ever riding the bus themselves raised Hell at board meetings so they could have the bus that nobody rode. Then we had to prove to them that it was a waste of resources. They often didn't care, anyway, because they're paying for it, goddamnit!

It's part & parcel of the FYGM headset. I mean, you know, as if a 1% sales tax rate is breaking their tender Libertopian balls.