how nvidia got into this mess

[draggoon01]

it just strikes me odd how this seems to have happened so quickly. nvidia was king, but now a joke to many and it's now "in" to bash nvidia. remember when people used to make fun of ati's drivers and swear to never buy ati cards because of bad support? the conspiracy side of me tends to think there's something more that happened behind the scenes. and the thing that comes to mind is that msft played a hand in nvidia's downturn.

specifically xbox. 2 things happened that left msft with a bad taste in their mouth from dealing with nvidia. first they went into arbitration over chip prices. and the second more recent thing is that nvidia refused to give msft certain rights to their chips. msft could have used the rights to make a smaller more efficient xbox to lower costs (as sony continually does with their consoles), and also could have used the rights to make a backward compatible xbox2 but now it's questionable if that will be possible.

in the article about nvidia's fx architecture, it was mentioned that part of the problem was how the directx sdk did certain operations and that if updated could give more favorable results for nvidia cards.

with the shortcuts nvidia is taking with their new drivers, it'll be interesting to see if it doesn't get whql certified as punishment from msft (although i dunno how much of an effect that could have). if valve spent 5x time to make their game work with nvidia cards and are being public about their anger over it, how's msft gonna feel about it while making their dx OS, longhorn? joe consumer buys a new $200 3d OS, goes home and installs it, but it shows up dark and blurry with smudged shadow effects around the window boxes? who's joe gonna blame for the low quality? and this happens because nvidia didn't follow msft dx spec (which i'm dying to know why)

shoot, even S3 is back

also nvidia could wait out the current mess until dx gets updated to FP32, or if msft is truly trying to do nvidia in then msft could make some variation on fp32 or skip it altogether.

and i'll just end by again asking the million dollar question (which maybe some reviewer will ask): why didn't nvidia follow the dx9 spec

another million dollar question is: what hand did msft play in nvidia's current mess

 

[MDE]

They didn't follow the spec exactly because they rushed the 5800 and the 5900. Plain and simple, ATI caught them completely off guard.

EDIT: Microsoft didn't play any part in this. They were even caught off guard by the 9700 Pro being released before DX9. ATI truly came out of nowhere and turned the high-end consumer graphics industry upside-down.

 

[Alkali]

So... you want us to stop having a go at nVidia, so we can blame Microsoft instead? Thats original

 

[SgtZulu]

so what's your point

 

[GoodRevrnd]

Originally posted by: Alkali
So... you want us to stop having a go at nVidia, so we can blame Microsoft instead? Thats original

I hear the design docs for Longhorn were written in babies' blood!

 

[Alkali]

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd

Originally posted by: Alkali
So... you want us to stop having a go at nVidia, so we can blame Microsoft instead? Thats original

I hear the design docs for Longhorn were written in babies' blood!

Yeah, lets all start blaming microsoft shall we?







Ummm, no thanks, I think the responsibility lies with the nVidia Marketing Department telling lies and trying to restrict the truth about card & driver performance.

 

[draggoon01]

Originally posted by: Alkali
So... you want us to stop having a go at nVidia, so we can blame Microsoft instead? Thats original

no, nvidia still screwing up with their drivers and approach to mess they're in.

Originally posted by: Alkali

Originally posted by: GoodRevrnd

Originally posted by: Alkali
So... you want us to stop having a go at nVidia, so we can blame Microsoft instead? Thats original

I hear the design docs for Longhorn were written in babies' blood!

Yeah, lets all start blaming microsoft shall we?

Ummm, no thanks, I think the responsibility lies with the nVidia Marketing Department telling lies and trying to restrict the truth about card & driver performance.

damn, why is everyone so fanatical about bashing nvidia. they screwed up. i won't be buying their cards any time soon. but people throw fit when anyone suggests nvidia shouldn't be bashed 100% of the time.



nullhttp://www.3dcenter.org/artikel/cinefx/index_e.php

A pixel shader 2.0 written according to the recommendations from ATi or created with the current DX9-SDK HLSL compiler unfortunately highlights all those problems. Such shaders use many temp register and have texture instructions packed in a block. A shader of version 1.4 uses the same principles.

nVidia will have to tackle these problems, the earlier the better. Microsoft is working on an SDK update which will include a new version of the compiler that can produce more "NV30-friendly" code with less temp registers and paired texture ops. But if developers use PS 1.4 or generate only one PS 2.0 shader, this compiler won't help nVidia much. They will have to solve the problem in the driver.

Q]

 

[Alkali]

I work at a company which has designers, engineers, marketing people, and more, all in 1 building, and it manufactures the parts everywhere from America to Poland to India. I know how things work in business, and although nVidia are a tech company, they are still actually a manufacturing company.


I don't blame the poor engineers at nVidia, they were given a brief to work on. The designers were given a task, and they went about creating something that looked to them like it had the edge, 32-bit precision, cg_language etc. Fine. No problem.

What I don't appreciate is the management who decided to get the poor marketing people to lie, and get their team of lawyers on any company that tried to tell the truth about driver enhancements or hardware problems.

My company doesnt do that. When there is a problem with a product, the marketing people go out and explain why to our customers, and offer a free upgrade to the new spec, which is then released and sent to the customers. Obviously, graphics is different in that whatever is released is a step up in performance, so they are justified in charging for the cards. But my point is that trail doesnt lead back to the engineers, or designers, but through the marketing team and then ultimately the board of directors.

They aren't dumn though, they will know there is unrest in the enthusiast community, and will be arguing over how to change the feelings of the community at the moment. Most probably they will come to the conclusion of not showing they were wrong (trying to keep the integrity of the FX line), but instead releasing a really really fast card to cover up the past problems. In honesty, this is probably what will happen, and in a years time most people here will probably be saying what a good alternative the new nVidia cards are to the 'old' Radeon 9700's and 9800's.

 

[MDE]

Nvidia doesn't manufacture anything (except maybe prototypes). They design and then outsource the manufacturing.

 

[Conor026]

If they don`t manufacture anything,why does my friend have a Geforce MX440 with nVidia all over the box and card and not the mention
of a third party on the box,card or driver in display properties

 

[Alkali]

Just like ATi, they do manufacture their own cards, but they also outsource it obviously, you are correct.

 

[MDE]

The drivers come straight from Nvidia, so of course there's not going to be a 3rd party mentioned there. My GF4 Ti4600 doesn't say VisionTek on the card, so what's your point? I personally have never seen a first-party Nvidia retail card, I'd like to see a picture of the box.

 

[Conor026]

I have a QDI Geforce MX 440 and a MSI 5900 Ultra and the third party names are plastered all over the card

 

[MDE]

Originally posted by: Conor026
I have a QDI Geforce MX 440 and a MSI 5900 Ultra and the third party names are plastered all over the card

That means what to me? Some manufacturers plaster their name on the cards, some don't. I'm still curious about the box your friend's GF4 MX came in...

 

[Lonyo]

also nvidia could wait out the current mess until dx gets updated to FP32, or if msft is truly trying to do nvidia in then msft could make some variation on fp32 or skip it altogether.

DX9 spec calld for fp24, nVidia, if the full DX9 spec is used, will do fp32 precision on fp24 code. The problem comes because nVidia's cards are slow at doing fp32, so they are slow at doing anything needing fp32.
The can have double the number of fp16 registers, because I believe they use 2 16's to make their 32's, so they have twice as many registers available when they use fp16, so the card runs faster.

It's their own fault for not having enough fp32 stuff to be able to run the code well. Even if MS made a call for fp32, nVidia wouldn't suddenly get faster.

 

[sandorski]

Nvidia *does not* manufacture video cards, they did directly oversee the manufacture of the FX5800(some anyway), but that was a special case and not the norm.

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: Alkali
Just like ATi, they do manufacture their own cards, but they also outsource it obviously, you are correct.

No actually they don't

 

[Czar]

whats happening with nvidia is exactly the same that happened to 3dfx

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Czar
whats happening with nvidia is exactly the same that happened to 3dfx

no, its not. 3dfx started making boards and nvidia started making sucky chips

 

[Alkali]

Originally posted by: NesuD

Originally posted by: Alkali
Just like ATi, they do manufacture their own cards, but they also outsource it obviously, you are correct.

No actually they don't

Ok, look, even if they don't that wasnt the point of what I wrote.

 

[Davegod]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

also nvidia could wait out the current mess until dx gets updated to FP32, or if msft is truly trying to do nvidia in then msft could make some variation on fp32 or skip it altogether.

DX9 spec calld for fp24, nVidia, if the full DX9 spec is used, will do fp32 precision on fp24 code. The problem comes because nVidia's cards are slow at doing fp32, so they are slow at doing anything needing fp32.
The can have double the number of fp16 registers, because I believe they use 2 16's to make their 32's, so they have twice as many registers available when they use fp16, so the card runs faster.

It's their own fault for not having enough fp32 stuff to be able to run the code well. Even if MS made a call for fp32, nVidia wouldn't suddenly get faster.

There's something about this mentioned recently on the Inq, unfortunately I cant see the story amid all the IDF stuff, I think it as the Inq . Something about NVidia trying to preassurise for FP32, MS staying put, NVidia leaves DX development, ATi stays in, eventually NVidia comes back presumably realising MS is in a awfully better position than Futuremark, and knowing it. Presumably NVidia was already stuck on FP32 and hence already screwed and trying to exert preassure; debatable wether NVidia's temporary exit from the consultation thing left them less able to do well with DX9.

Nowt more than speculation about a article of speculation tho, could easily be talking utter rubbish.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: Czar
whats happening with nvidia is exactly the same that happened to 3dfx

no, its not. 3dfx started making boards and nvidia started making sucky chips

actually it is very much like it, 3dfx made boards that only did 16bit colors, could only handle if I remember correctly 512x512 textures along with having their own api, glide. They did try to go their own way and not go with the rest of the industry when it comes to standards.

 

[OddTSi]

Why is it that everyone is always trying to blame Microsoft for everything?

People are too stupid to click "Install" to patch their computers over a month before a worm is made to exploit the hole. But it's not their fault that their computer got hit, it's Microsoft's.

nVidia digs their own grave while trying to catch up to ATi who completely blind-sided them with the R300 core. But it's not their fault for designing a bad chip, no, it's Microsoft's.

Some schmuck's computer just crashed because he installs each and every thing that he can find including all sorts of spyware and useless advertising apps and never does any routine maintenance on his computer, who can he blame? Why who else, blame Microsoft.

I just stubbed my toe on my desk, I'm not going to admit that it was my own fault for not pulling my chair out far enough. No, I'll just blame Microsoft.

So the moral of the story, if YOU did something wrong and don't want to fess up, or if you just want to be a sheep and try to act like a c001, l33t h/\X0r, blame Microsoft.

With their beedy little eyes and flappin' heads so full of lies. Blame Cana-...er, Microsoft. Blame Microsoft.

 

[Luagsch]

Originally posted by: Davegod

There's something about this mentioned recently on the Inq, unfortunately I cant see the story amid all the IDF stuff, I think it as the Inq . Something about NVidia trying to preassurise for FP32, MS staying put, NVidia leaves DX development, ATi stays in, eventually NVidia comes back presumably realising MS is in a awfully better position than Futuremark, and knowing it. Presumably NVidia was already stuck on FP32 and hence already screwed and trying to exert preassure; debatable wether NVidia's temporary exit from the consultation thing left them less able to do well with DX9.

Nowt more than speculation about a article of speculation tho, could easily be talking utter rubbish.

the part of nvidia leaving dx9 developement probably isn't speculation as probably isn't nvidia's crawling back. it's gonna be interesting to see the changes for dx9.1 and dx10 as draggoon01 pointed out here.

 

[lostinohio]

:brokenheart: I just bought a XFX geforce fx 5200. Are you guys telling my I just got scre--- without so much as a pat on the head or at least a beer?