How much do you think piracy is affecting the PC Gaming market?

[mindcycle]

These days with Youtube and everyone and their brother thinking they are video stars, you don't really need a demo I've yay'd or nay'd quite a few games the last few years with the video walkthroughs. Sometimes, even $5 is too much if you want to prove a point to a publisher.

I don't really agree with this. While Youtube walkthrough vids are fine and all, it's really nothing like playing it for yourself. Demo's obviously work to some degree as just about every AAA game on consoles has a demo released on Xbox Live or PSN, however, on the PC side we rarely get demos anymore. I think this is mainly due to publishers cheaping out on PC ports in the first place (if we even get one at all) as there's likely little to no money left in their small PC budget for a PC specific demo. The last AAA PC demo I can even remember seeing was for Kingdoms of Amalur and I was pretty surprised since EA was the publisher on that one.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

These days with Youtube and everyone and their brother thinking they are video stars, you don't really need a demo I've yay'd or nay'd quite a few games the last few years with the video walkthroughs. Sometimes, even $5 is too much if you want to prove a point to a publisher.

I disagree with this completely. Bulletstorm was a great example for me. The game looked awesome in the trailer, and some of the regulars doing let's plays looked equally awesome. I was psyched for the game. Fortunately, they also did a Demo. When I finally downloaded the demo (I had lots of other downloads going at the time so it took a week or two to get to), much to my disappointment, the gameplay mechanics were completely lackluster, and I'm glad I dodged that bullet (hah).

As others already said, a demo is highly necessary to ensure you actually enjoy the game. As I've already said, I'll no longer buy a big title without a demo.

 

[Childs]

A gameplay video gives a pretty good idea of what to expect, but it doesnt account for things like FOV, excessive mouse smoothing, or horrible controls, like in ARMA. DayZ looks great in videos, but its too much of a hassle to actually play. I will say though, ARMA is the only case where a video wasn't as good as a demo. Normally, the TotalHalibut does a good job of describing all the issues you may encounter.

 

[HeXen]

I know myself well enough at this point that i can tell if i could enjoy a game based on some gameplay footage alone. Nowadays the only games i buy that i never end up liking are the Steam deals where i impulse buy.

 

[ThinClient]

That's not a valid excuse in this day and age. There are tons of gameplay videos out and user (not critic) reviews that would give you all the information you needed.

Why do you think I don't bother pirating games anymore?

The gaming industry has changed a lot and, with a few key rules to live by, you can save yourself a lot of hassle and avoid any reason to pirate.

1) Never pre-order anything. Period.
2) Never be an early-adopter. Wait 6-12 months.
3) Youtube the gameplay. 'nuff said.

 

[ThinClient]

You said flat out "It didn't have a demo, so I pirated it". Heck, you even said they weren't worth buying, making you subsequent claim you bought them rather iffy.

A shitty game isn't worth $60 but it's probably worth $10 and will have been patched properly, might have DLC or mods, blah blah. The world isn't black and white so stop trying to force it to be.

The only way that's a strawman is if you're made out of straw.

I bet you don't even understand the concept of a strawman argument.

 

[Arkadrel]

How much do you think piracy is affecting the PC Gaming market?

1) Free-2-play = immune to piracy.
2) Sub based MMO = immune to piracy.
3) Online multiplayer games = mostly immune to piracy.

4) cheap / virus free alternative, direct downloaded games from sites, like steam/GoG ect.


I think piracy (gameing) is smaller on PC than ever it was before,
and plays less and less a role in how much $ the game industry makes.

 

[MeldarthX]

Why do you think I don't bother pirating games anymore?

The gaming industry has changed a lot and, with a few key rules to live by, you can save yourself a lot of hassle and avoid any reason to pirate.

1) Never pre-order anything. Period.
2) Never be an early-adopter. Wait 6-12 months.
3) Youtube the gameplay. 'nuff said.

You mean use the old rules for Bethesda soft software...... That was the rule of thumb for anything from them; wait for the first big patch before buying and for community fixes

That was established with Daggerfall - and still carries on to today I hope they finally kill that damn engine......

Publishers use pirating as a great boogy man; all the while trampling on our rights.

Right now - Steam is dealing with EU issue of them not allowing people to sell their games - Steam is now attempting to figure out how to allow this - its in the courts......

Its the same thing with Publishers wanting to kill the used game market; at least in the EU they can't. They have to allow people to be able to sell their games. EU doesn't do a whole hell of a lot right; but at least there they are doing something right...

 

[PrincessFrosty]

Wow, I actually have to take a step back and reconsider my position, or at least the way in which I approach things. You've certainly appealed to my intellectual half. I think there is one major flaw in what you are saying though.

Yes, stealing is wrong, but copyright infringement is also wrong, the effects of both are different I will own. One is certainly preferrable to the other but there are other options preferrable to both.

When we start making compromises and saying 'this is bad, but it's better than this other way' we are still left with a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I agree but it's not what I'm trying to get at.

I'm simply pointing out that one is pretty much always harmful (stealing) where as one is only harmful in certain circumstances and potentially not harmful in others.

I'd prefer that people did neither and everyone got paid for their work, but at the end of the day there is some largely unknown percentage of gamers who pirate for reasons which I would consider perfectly moral. Let me clarify it's still ILLEGAL, but I personally consider morally justified.

Some personal examples of things I've done which I consider perfectly moral:

1) I legitimately own discs for games I bought, but I no longer have an optical drive (I actually use all my SATA ports on HDD/SSDs) and so I've downloaded ISOs of some of my games in order to play without needing to change my hardware config
2) I've had DRM fail in the past rendering the game unplayable, GFWL has been problematic for me many times in the past which has resulting in downloading cracked game exe's for games I already own and fake GFWL dlls.
3) I've downloaded ISOs of old games I've bought but lost the discs for or had broken discs but still have my CD key.
4) Games with known problems on my hardware config I've downloaded to test/try before I buy, one good example was the Witcher 2, there was numerous scaling issues with crossfire and numerous day 1 bugs, i didn't want to risk it being unplayable so I downloaded to try it first, low and behold it didn't work. When they patched the game to work I bought a legit copy
5) Downloading cracked exes for games I own to remove DRM checks such as needing the CD to play, needing to be online or whatever.

I own a shelf full of games and currently 294 games on steam...am I a blight to PC gaming because I've pirated stuff for the reasons above? I don't think so and some others might agree.

The point is that this simplified idea that PIRACY = STEALING = WRONG is a gross over simplification. What we really should be saying is PIRACY = COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT = SOMETIMES WRONG, the appeal to piracy being theft and theft always being wrong simply destroys the nuances of the problem.

Morals and values change over time. In some contexts even what is considered immoral is considered to be just. That isn't to say I remotely think piracy is just fine at this time, but in the end, it's just what the majority thinks that makes it right or wrong and that can change at any time.

If it wasn't for people who disagreed and went against the grain of thought of what is considered right and moral, the world would be a far scarier place than it is with some people who download things off the internet.

This kind of follows on from what I'm saying, once we move away from this false idea that piracy is theft and we accept that not instances of piracy are morally wrong we can start investigating the idea of copyright law not being ideal.

In some places in the world such as sweeden, the young generation have been brought up with fast broadband/cable and sharing has been a shift in cultural norms, in these places we have political movements to reform copyright.

No - it's not that they don't see it as a crime. Most people only really consider criminality in terms of how likely they are to get caught.

The problem is that they don't see it as unethical.

And this brings us to this, sure some people just do not see this as unethical, what is currently legal and how we prosecute breach of copyright is simply not up for debate, it just a fact we cannot deny. But as long as people disagree with the law then they're going to risk breaking it, at some point when a large enough portion of society question the law it faces being reformed.

I think that's a long way off yet, but I can see us moving that way eventually, that's a much deeper discussion though.

 

[Annisman*]

@PrincessFrosty, You and I are almost exactly on the same page here. When I reference 'pirating = bad' and 'pirating = stealing', what I really only mean is those who pirate the game, to play the game, to avoid paying for the game.

The many reasons you listed that you've personally 'pirated' a game are legitimate, and I have no problem with them even from an ethics standpoint.

I myself have downloaded a Windows 7 keygen because I ran into a number of quick hardware issues and reinstalled my purchased copy of Windows multiple times in a short period, hence, Microsoft decided I had used that key enough times and I was left with a useless piece of software that I had just paid 150$ for. Though I had only ever installed it on one PC.

Was that legally wrong ? I don't know, I'm sure somebody will tell me though. Was it ethically wrong ? Again, I suppose someone may say that it was, but for me it was the only appropriate answer, and my concious was quite clear about it.

What I am really getting at, is that we have a miscommunication issue here.

If I hear the term 'pirate', or if I use that term myself, I mean those who have the intention to get a free piece of software for nothing. Now you may say, 'well look at all the other reasons people pirate, that aren't as bad...' but my response would be that I legitimately beleive that >90% of pirates are doing it to get the software for free, and not doing it to remove DRM checks etc.

So while you have a valid point there, I beleive it is close to a non factor. Others may believe different.

Btw, you've had the most interesting posts about this topic, I can tell you've put alot of thought into the subject, which has made me give more thought to it as well.

 

[StrangerGuy]

When you make games people don't even want to bother with let alone pirate, blame piracy!

 

[MeldarthX]

@PrincessFrosty, You and I are almost exactly on the same page here. When I reference 'pirating = bad' and 'pirating = stealing', what I really only mean is those who pirate the game, to play the game, to avoid paying for the game.

The many reasons you listed that you've personally 'pirated' a game are legitimate, and I have no problem with them even from an ethics standpoint.

I myself have downloaded a Windows 7 keygen because I ran into a number of quick hardware issues and reinstalled my purchased copy of Windows multiple times in a short period, hence, Microsoft decided I had used that key enough times and I was left with a useless piece of software that I had just paid 150$ for. Though I had only ever installed it on one PC.

Was that legally wrong ? I don't know, I'm sure somebody will tell me though. Was it ethically wrong ? Again, I suppose someone may say that it was, but for me it was the only appropriate answer, and my concious was quite clear about it.

What I am really getting at, is that we have a miscommunication issue here.

If I hear the term 'pirate', or if I use that term myself, I mean those who have the intention to get a free piece of software for nothing. Now you may say, 'well look at all the other reasons people pirate, that aren't as bad...' but my response would be that I legitimately beleive that >90% of pirates are doing it to get the software for free, and not doing it to remove DRM checks etc.

So while you have a valid point there, I beleive it is close to a non factor. Others may believe different.

Btw, you've had the most interesting posts about this topic, I can tell you've put alot of thought into the subject, which has made me give more thought to it as well.

Ah now I understand better where you are coming from Annis - I can add though the people I know that pirate still is to actually get around the damn drm checks - they've already bought the game but because the Publishers have made it at times so damn difficult to play their own games or software we've had no other choice but to go look for the pirated versions just to play the game we've already paid for.

As I said; right now Steam is being forced to set up section to sell your used steam games in the EU - companies can't kill the used market in the EU as EU *for once* is doing something right.

Its a complex problem that tends to be two folded if not three folded. Publishers treating customers like crimmials; Publishers trying to kill the used market and finally pirates themselves...

Funny part is - the new studies on pirating shows that pirates tended to spend far more on music than non pirates... that's just for music

 

[BoberFett]

I myself have downloaded a Windows 7 keygen because I ran into a number of quick hardware issues and reinstalled my purchased copy of Windows multiple times in a short period, hence, Microsoft decided I had used that key enough times and I was left with a useless piece of software that I had just paid 150$ for. Though I had only ever installed it on one PC.

Was that legally wrong ? I don't know, I'm sure somebody will tell me though. Was it ethically wrong ? Again, I suppose someone may say that it was, but for me it was the only appropriate answer, and my concious was quite clear about it.

Wow. After all of the screaming at other people this guy has done, it's turns out he's a thief.

 

[Geosurface]

Wow. After all of the screaming at other people this guy has done, it's turns out he's a thief.

Funny how reasonable a female screen name can make certain people become, isn't it?

 

[Annisman*]

It's amusing to observe certain people following me around to every thread I participate in. Is message board stalking a real thing?

 

[shortylickens]

It's amusing to observe certain people following me around to every thread I participate in. Is message board stalking a real thing?

Most of us have no lives and amazing as it sounds, some people here remember everything you write.

Over the last 10 years I have slowly let loose some small details about my life. Just recently when somebody was talking about me another fellow stepped in and corrected him on a fact or two. He then proceeded to disseminate everything I've ever said about myself into two large paragraphs.

It was a little unnerving. Since then I stopped sharing any new personal info and, cuz I cant keep track of every little thing I've ever said about myself, I am also hesitant to repeat things I thought I may have previously said.

 

[gorcorps]

Most of us have no lives and amazing as it sounds, some people here remember everything you write.

Over the last 10 years I have slowly let loose some small details about my life. Just recently when somebody was talking about me another fellow stepped in and corrected him on a fact or two. He then proceeded to disseminate everything I've ever said about myself into two large paragraphs.

It was a little unnerving. Since then I stopped sharing any new personal info and, cuz I cant keep track of every little thing I've ever said about myself, I am also hesitant to repeat things I thought I may have previously said.

Yeah... there's some people here who have a creepily good memory of things people have posted. Hell, most of the time I don't even know who I'm replying to. I just know I have a response to whatever was said, and who cares who said it? Maybe I'm just a dick and don't care who any of you are or what you do. There's only a couple I remember and that's because I've met them in person.

 

[Geosurface]

Yeah... there's some people here who have a creepily good memory of things people have posted. Hell, most of the time I don't even know who I'm replying to. I just know I have a response to whatever was said, and who cares who said it? Maybe I'm just a dick and don't care who any of you are or what you do. There's only a couple I remember and that's because I've met them in person.

I'm the same way and I think we make the mistake of thinking the good memory people are like us.

I'm convinced some people keep friggin' dossiers on other posters they don't like.

 

[shortylickens]

Yeah... there's some people here who have a creepily good memory of things people have posted. Hell, most of the time I don't even know who I'm replying to. I just know I have a response to whatever was said, and who cares who said it? Maybe I'm just a dick and don't care who any of you are or what you do. There's only a couple I remember and that's because I've met them in person.

The only people I remember are the ginormous assholes like Alkymest (mostly cuz he posts a lot) and the handful of folks who are also on my other forums and Facebook.

Also I try to keep up with the genuinely cool guys like Yoyosojello, but I honestly dont remember if he's even married or not.

 

[BoberFett]

It's amusing to observe certain people following me around to every thread I participate in. Is message board stalking a real thing?

How about addressing the fact that you're a crook, by your own definition, and have rationalized your behavior EXACTLY the same way that evil pirates do?

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for you to admit you're a thief...

 

[blackened23]

How about addressing the fact that you're a crook, by your own definition, and have rationalized your behavior EXACTLY the same way that evil pirates do?

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for you to admit you're a thief...

Do you and lonbjerg know each other? You should start arguing about physx, you'd fit right in.

 

[BoberFett]

Do you and lonbjerg know each other? You should start arguing about physx, you'd fit right in.

Why are you defending a pirate? Because you're a thief too?

 

[ThinClient]

I'm convinced some people keep friggin' dossiers on other posters they don't like.

hahahahahahahahaaaaa :sneaky:

 

[ImpulsE69]

LOL, well this went an unexpected direction.

So to actually answer you, downloading cracks is neither theft nor copyright infringement when taken by law. It actually falls under reverse engineering/circumventing DMCA laws. All of them are illegal, however peoples moral compass around each one is slightly different, as is how they justify doing it. This is why we argue things that you keep calling semantics, because they ARE different, even if the publishers would have you believe they are all one in the same (and yes, they consider circumventing copy protection pirating). I do not know if they add these into their numbers for pirating, but it certainly would not surprise me. The thing is that in none of these cases do the people policing this know if the user owns the product or not, so they assume "NO". Same thing with downloading a whole product vs a crack. These 3 things are all different. They are different laws with different wording and different punishments.

Under fair use downloading cracks can be defended except that most products EULA/ToS wave your rights to use it as a defense thus negating fair use.

So yes, it's illegal. Immoral? That sits at a personal level. As you've just shown, morals can bend depending on need and circumstances. It's not always black and white. Some people think same sex marriage is immoral, others have no issue with it, but ultimately, the laws decide if it is legal or not, thus negating the opposing peoples beliefs. I only use this example because it is current and also highly debatable based on morals and centuries of belief.

Semantics have their place.

What this boils down to is that the people putting out the "we've lost billions" to piracy numbers have no way of knowing if they are remotely accurate. I think we are all smart enough to assume there are people who just download stuff and won't pay for it, but that doesn't mean it's ruining the industries. There are tons of companies that are not subject to piracy that go under all the time. There are many reasons companies go under, piracy is just one of them, and in many cases, not the primary reason that the industry would have you believe.

I do think piracy overall is higher now than in the past, but the total gaming population has grown exponentially as well.

 

[pcslookout]

It's amusing to observe certain people following me around to every thread I participate in. Is message board stalking a real thing?

That happens to my all the time. They must love me!