How much do you think piracy is affecting the PC Gaming market?

[Annisman*]

How is pirating any different from walking into Walmart and stealing PC game 'x' off the shelf ? You get the exact same product in a digital copy.

PIRATING IS STEALING PERIOD.

Also, just because a pirated game may not equal a lost sale, it is still theft, it is still wrong.

Can we stop making excuses for this nonsense, it gets old so fast. There are plenty of things you can crap on the PC gaming industry for these days without resorting to making concessions for thieves.

 

[ThinClient]

You're flat out wrong. Stealing is the removal of property. There is nothing stolen in software piracy. There is no theft. The law specifically defines this. Your moral nonsense is clouding your logic and reason.

 

[blackened23]

I posted this earlier. I'll post it again just to discuss this "stealing" semantics nonsense, and i'll show myself out of this thread. The blatant pirates in this thread justifying their actions disgusts me. Unbelievable. If the mods even look at this board, I wish they would close this thread, on other forums users discussing their piracy isn't allowed. But apparently that isn't the case here. Disgusting. "i'm not stealing anything". Keep telling yourself that, keep self-justifying your actions like there is no wrong with it.

You're basing the stealing definition on physical property. You and I both know that intellectual property and digital goods have value, which is why our country is flooded with continual patent legislation and why the top firms in the US are continually targetted for IP theft. Because digital property has value. That's why multi billion lawsuits are made not for physical goods, but for copyrighted intellectual property. You can't quantify "stealing" as only being for physical goods, unless you're a complete jackass that wants to justify piracy through semantics. Come on, are we that stupid? Give me a break.

Let me also address your other argument, that pirates wouldn't buy it anyway. For some this may be true. For others, it is not. Only a jackass would state that 100% of pirates would never buy a product anyway. That doesn't give you an entitlement to take everything and anything you want. Furthermore, you are still taking something that isn't yours to take. We are in the year 2013. Not all goods are physical. PERIOD.

Stop arguing semantics. Your argument is stupid and you absolutely know it, you think that your silly semantics can justify your piracy. I'm sorry it does not. You're taking intellectual copyrighted material which isn't yours to take.

 

[Annisman*]

You're flat out wrong. Stealing is the removal of property. There is nothing stolen in software piracy. There is no theft. Your moral nonsense is clouding your logic and reason.

No, your mind is the mountain before you.

These are the excuses I am talking about. Everybody knows that it's wrong, whether or not the 'legal definition' of theft applies to software or not.

What's so unbelievable to me, is that the things I am saying are so obvious. I never thought for one minute I would be hearing people debate piracy as being right or wrong. I'm shocked, who are you people that are able to convince yourself that it's ok ?

It's called PIRATING for goodness sake. Need I explain further ?

Think about being a developer like CD Projekt Red. You put in hours of your life to create a product. And you did a very good job, your product has high praise, earns awards, high scores and you even decide to release it DRM free to boot.

Then what happens ? More people pirate the game than actually purchase it. What on Earth would that tell you as a developer ?

When I see stories like that, I am never shocked to see companies like Ubisoft and EA enact draconian DRM schemes.

Do they work to stop pirates ? Of course not, but they have to try something. So we as the legitimate buyers get screwed.

Pirates have ruined alot of good things for us, and it's only getting worse. Again I don't care if they 'technically' aren't breaking laws, though I doubt that's the case. You cannot say that what they are doing is proper, you just can't.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Pirates have ruined alot of good things for us, and it's only getting worse. Again I don't care if they 'technically' aren't breaking laws, though I doubt that's the case. You cannot say that what they are doing is proper, you just can't.

What? They've ruined exactly what for you? Can you list it? If pirates were the the great evil you are trying to say they IP's wouldn't exist. You realize gaming crashed in the 80's long before there was any widespread pirating? Are you going to try to blame that on pirating? Companies do this to themselves. Pirates might be helping it along today, but do not fool yourself into thinking pirating is the downfall of anything. Bad business kills business and there is plenty of that around. Quit operating under the assumption that it will all go away, because it won't. Things will always progress, and there will always be people taking advantage of other people, and yet, people will continue to create and not be awarded for it.

Those of you in here acting like butt hurt little girls need to broaden your mind a bit. If you can't have an adult discussion without freaking out then get off the internet and lock yourselves in your padded room. There's a difference between telling people how and where to pirate and having a discussion about impact. We're sorry if your little iphone app didn't sell as well as it should have, however I'm fairly certain it wasn't because of piracy.

 

[Annisman*]

Yeah, bad business kills business, except when the Witcher 2 shows us that's not correct at all.

Great game, great developer, decent price for the game (wasn't 60 bucks at launch, and has been on sale numerous times) and yet rampant piracy.

Pirates don't REALLY care about being treated like adults by developers because they don't act like adults so they can't appreciate it to begin with.

How about World of Goo ? Another excellent game, I think it had >90% rate of piracy. That game was what ? 10 dollars, maybe 15 ? And threatened to destroy it's Indie developer. Pirates just want whatever they can get their hands on for free. This isn't about good or bad business. It's about bad people and bad practices by those people.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Yeah, bad business kills business, except when the Witcher 2 shows us that's not correct at all.

Great game, great developer, decent price for the game (wasn't 60 bucks at launch, and has been on sale numerous times) and yet rampant piracy.

Pirates don't REALLY care about being treated like adults by developers because they don't act like adults so they can't appreciate it to begin with.

How about World of Goo ? Another excellent game, I think it had >90% rate of piracy. That game was what ? 10 dollars, maybe 15 ? And threatened to destroy it's Indie developer. Pirates just want whatever they can get their hands on for free. This isn't about good or bad business. It's about bad people and bad practices by those people.

I don't disagree Witcher 2 got pirated. I think that's obvious. What I do disagree on is the numbers. Since they are making a Witcher 3, I think it goes w/o saying, pirating didn't actually hurt them. Sure, they've changed their mind about how to approach it, but if they really thought it was a lost cause they wouldn't already be churning out the next one. The fact that that's the only game anyone ever looks at as a reference point speaks volumes.

World of Goo was far from a failure as well. They misjudged their pricing point, just as many do, once they reevaluated, things changed. Overvaluing your contents worth is a common mistake these days. The market determines your worth, not the creator. That is the sad truth. The big companies are trying to set a pricing point, however those pricing points are based off an old market that the customer base was always told the price was due to the making and distribution of said product was the bulk of the price. When everything went digital, the customer was like "hurray, cheaper stuff" except that's not how it worked for various reasons outside of the scope of this topic. I will go so far as to say that if piracy didn't exist, I highly doubt prices would be different than they are now.

And these are the things that this topic is about. Piracy, while perceived as being rampant, is not stopping things from happening. CD Projekt, who is a great company, tried an experiment and had no DRM. Their game sold. It was pirated the same as every other game out there. The big point is, it did not stop them from creating a new one. I don't deny piracy can and is an issue in some cases, I just think the impact is overstated and used as a crutch by many.

Practically everything gets pirated. That makes a zerosum to start with. While overall sales numbers may be down, those that are sold are still a true representation of how well you would sell. People who pirate aren't magically going to turn around and buy every game out there just because they can't pirate anymore. They will still only buy the few # of items they would have (and probably bought anyway). I do think that DRM that stops 0day probably does get the average "omgI haveto have it the minute it comes out" crowd to buy instead, the thing is, that crowd will get smaller as these companies continue to churn out crap and burn their customer base (the whole time blaming piracy).

Every company wants their game to sell like the next CoD. It's just not going to happen, even if piracy didn't exist. I honestly can't figure out why CoD sells to begin with(off topic).

 

[PrincessFrosty]

How is pirating any different from walking into Walmart and stealing PC game 'x' off the shelf ? You get the exact same product in a digital copy.

There is a distinct difference you're completely ignoring.

If you PIRATE a digital copy of a game you're COPYING a game which leaves the original intact, if you STEAL a copy of the game you're TAKING something that removes the original.

PIRATING IS STEALING PERIOD.

No, it's not. You're letting your emotional involvement in the issue cloud your ability to reason with logic. There is a specific meaning to the term "steal" and it is not appropriate to use that term to describe piracy.

This is acknowledged in law, people who pirate intellectual property cannot be legally held accountable for stealing the game, the law simply does not apply here. So a new set of laws were created to protect copyrighted material, piracy is copyright infringement.

Let me be crystal clear here: Copyright infringement is a branch of law that was created sometime after theft law was established specifically because theft laws do not cover digital piracy. Hypothetically if theft laws covered piracy there would be no need for copyright infringement laws - they exist for a reason!

This is just a simple fact that you're wrong on, and you're going to have to accept this fact and while you're wrapping your head around it you should also consider that the people correcting you on this fact are not always people who condone piracy, some of the people (such as myself) who are correcting you are doing so simply because you're WRONG.

Can we stop making excuses for this nonsense, it gets old so fast. There are plenty of things you can crap on the PC gaming industry for these days without resorting to making concessions for thieves.

You're automatically assuming that everyone correcting you is doing so because they want to excuse piracy, as long as you think this you'll never be able to see the error of your reasoning.

You're flat out wrong. Stealing is the removal of property. There is nothing stolen in software piracy. There is no theft. The law specifically defines this. Your moral nonsense is clouding your logic and reason.

Exactly. There is no debate here, piracy is not theft. Piracy is copyright infringement.

These are the excuses I am talking about. Everybody knows that it's wrong, whether or not the 'legal definition' of theft applies to software or not.

You're asserting there is some distinction between the legal definition of theft and some other definition you've invented in your mind, this is simply wrong.

There are different words to describe theft (stealing) and piracy (copyright infringement) specifically because there are functional differences between these acts, lumping them both as one act is an over simplification of the problem.

Pirates have ruined alot of good things for us, and it's only getting worse. Again I don't care if they 'technically' aren't breaking laws, though I doubt that's the case. You cannot say that what they are doing is proper, you just can't.

No one is saying that technically they aren't breaking laws, that is a straw man of the position of a lot of people commenting on this issue. Copyright infringement is against the law there is no doubt about that, when someone says piracy is not theft they are NOT saying that piracy is legal. You're conflating 2 issues.

Say it with me now...

PIRACY is not THEFT
PIRACY is COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT is ILLEGAL

When you've acknowledged and understood this distinction then we can discuss the subject further.

 

[ImpulsE69]

PIRACY is not THEFT
PIRACY is COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT is ILLEGAL

Nicely put.

 

[T9D]

For all intents and purposes it's stealing. It sounds so lame when people refuse to comprehend the concept of how it's viewed in that way.

It's like when people say you're stealing food from their table. Or stealing their livelihood.

 

[blackened23]

For all intents and purposes it's stealing. It sounds so lame when people refuse to comprehend the concept of how it's viewed in that way.

It's like when people say you're stealing food from their table. Or stealing their livelihood.

I've read about 5 pages of people trying to argue that piracy is "okay" due to silly semantics. Hey guys, the dictionary tells me that stealing only refers to physical goods so that gives me a green light to pirate. Whatever. UGH.

Deep down I know these people aren't this naive. What they're doing is wrong because digital goods have value, and they know it.... it's a double insult because game programmers do not get paid a lot at all for what they do.

 

[SMOGZINN]

So what was the harm of him pirating? He wasn't a lost sale. And maybe he went back and bought those games he pirated or bought the sequels of the games he pirated.

More importantly what he actually showed is that software piracy created a lifelong gaming enthusiast that has gone on to do more for the industry then he ever harmed it. I think this is the real cost/benefit analysis we have to look at. PC video gaming is not cheap to get into. A lot of people are going to do it though piracy at first just to learn what they are doing. Once you have a avid gamer, he is probably going to become a paying customer. This was the brilliance of Shareware, and now the industry is relying on piracy to take that place.

Moral absolutism is not helpful on this topic. In just the last few decades the gaming industry has gone from a small cottage industry to just a few small business to a multi-billion dollar industry controlled by major international corporations with massive advertising budgets. I think it is legitimate to say that piracy did not hurt it too badly.

Can you name another CD store chain? Maybe I'll use Empire Records and hope people have seen that movie. Regardless, the fact that all retail outlets that made most of their money selling CDs went out of business because of piracy.

CD Store chains did not die out because of piracy, they died because they did not have a working working business model in a world where everyone listens to music on an MP3 player. Big box stores can sell CD's because they already have a storefront selling other items, adding some CD's is not hard. But notice how those stores are now struggling as well, because more and more goods are being bought online. The internet is killing traditional business models, and those that don't adapt are going to die.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

For all intents and purposes it's stealing. It sounds so lame when people refuse to comprehend the concept of how it's viewed in that way.

No, it's not.

If, for all intents and purposes, it was stealing then it would be dealt with by theft law and have the same punishment as theft. As it is not the same for all intents and purposes we invented copyright law with its own punishment.

Logically there is a difference between theft and copyright infringement.
Physically and materially there is a difference between theft and copyright infringement.
Practically there is a difference between theft and copyright infringement.
Legally there is a difference between theft and copyright infringement.
Semantically there is a difference between theft and copyright infringement.

It's like when people say you're stealing food from their table. Or stealing their livelihood.

No it's not.

Stealing food is "stealing" because food is a physical object with ownership which cannot be copied, you cannot punish someone for copyright infringement for taking someones food.

 

[MeldarthX]

SimCity and Diablo 3 are what happens to the gaming industry due to piracy. Rightfully or wrongly the executives in charge of these companies view piracy as their #2 threat behind used games and are doing horrid DRM schemes like this to try and prevent it. Perception is everything.

No - that's about control - and being able to have the always on sale for real money items......

Diablo 3 the biggest reason no offline mode? Real money market - can't have that secure online *BS*

Simcity - its EA - they are attempting a UBISOFT - we saw how well that went......and more importantly about killing used game market; which in itself help build all these studios. They kill the used market; we will see another crash.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

Moral absolutism is not helpful on this topic.

Right, and actually I would argue that moral absolutism isn't particularly helpful on most moral subjects, you can pretty much imagine a case in most scenarios where stealing or piracy is actually beneficial overall.

What happens if there's a bomb in your sandwich, and I steal that sandwich from you and throw it in the river, moments before it blows your head off. Hey! I just stole your sandwich, but that's morally a good thing right? Because I just prevented your death!

What happens if someone buys a copy of a game and it simply won't work because of an issues in the DRM for the game, so that person then pirates the game and plays the pirate copy?

Again I'm not condoning piracy or excusing it in general, the topic is not as black and white as some moral absolutists would have you believe.

 

[dagamer34]

If only people who were pirating ever wrote a line of commercial software code, they would feel pretty sick to their stomach every time they saw their hard work available for download for free. :\

Anyway, the effects are clear. You get Diablo III, you get SimCity, you get Assassin's Creed II on PC, and it's only going to get worse.

 

[MeldarthX]

Right, and actually I would argue that moral absolutism isn't particularly helpful on most moral subjects, you can pretty much imagine a case in most scenarios where stealing or piracy is actually beneficial overall.

What happens if there's a bomb in your sandwich, and I steal that sandwich from you and throw it in the river, moments before it blows your head off. Hey! I just stole your sandwich, but that's morally a good thing right? Because I just prevented your death!

What happens if someone buys a copy of a game and it simply won't work because of an issues in the DRM for the game, so that person then pirates the game and plays the pirate copy?

Again I'm not condoning piracy or excusing it in general, the topic is not as black and white as some moral absolutists would have you believe.

I'd already said this and was ignored - Publishers need stop treating people like crimmials - when someone that pirates the game has an easier time playing than someone who bought it.......

There is something very wrong with that.......

 

[Dumac]

How is pirating any different from walking into Walmart and stealing PC game 'x' off the shelf ? You get the exact same product in a digital copy.

When you steal a physical copy of a game from Walmart, they are actually losing money because they paid for that piece of inventory (mind you the publisher/developer wouldn't know any different - it is Walmart that is harmed in this scenario).

If you walked into Walmart, waggled a little want at the game and made a copy and then took the copy home, that would be closer to piracy. Walmart would not know any different, since their inventory wouldn't indicate any losses.

PIRATING IS STEALING PERIOD.

Stop barking this when it has been proven wrong a billion times. Even the CEO of the MPAA disagrees with you.

Also, just because a pirated game may not equal a lost sale, it is still theft, it is still wrong.

Can we stop making excuses for this nonsense, it gets old so fast. There are plenty of things you can crap on the PC gaming industry for these days without resorting to making concessions for thieves.

It is not that.

Is it wrong? I think so. However, the thread was about the effect of piracy, not the morality of it. And I believe the effect of piracy is nearly zero.

How about World of Goo ? Another excellent game, I think it had >90% rate of piracy. That game was what ? 10 dollars, maybe 15 ? And threatened to destroy it's Indie developer. Pirates just want whatever they can get their hands on for free. This isn't about good or bad business. It's about bad people and bad practices by those people.

You know, I bought World of Goo. They made themselves to be a martyr and guilted everybody to get a few extra sales, and I was one of those sales. I shouldn't have fell for it. I kind of hate the game. I can't bring myself to beat it.

 

[Dumac]

For all intents and purposes it's stealing. It sounds so lame when people refuse to comprehend the concept of how it's viewed in that way.

It's like when people say you're stealing food from their table. Or stealing their livelihood.

No, it isn't stealing. People already have a mindset made up about stealing, so corporations love to label piracy stealing to get people up in arms about it.

Piracy is something else entirely.

 

[Dumac]

If only people who were pirating ever wrote a line of commercial software code, they would feel pretty sick to their stomach every time they saw their hard work available for download for free. :\

Anyway, the effects are clear. You get Diablo III, you get SimCity, you get Assassin's Creed II on PC, and it's only going to get worse.

I'm a software engineer. I don't pirate, but I'm not blinded by some black-and-white moral view on the world in which piracy is the root of all evil.

And don't blame D3, etc, on piracy. Piracy didn't cause that. Greedy corporate action with little regard to the quality of the final product caused that, and it just aggravates the issue.

 

[Ricochet]

If you want an example, piracy was one of the factors that killed the much beloved Dreamcast console and forced Sega out of the hardware business. At the time when Sega needed all the support it can get from consumers to compete against its much bigger rival Sony, its copy protection was so easily hacked and its catalog of games became a regular part of Warez sites everywhere.

 

[ImpulsE69]

If you want an example, piracy was one of the factors that killed the much beloved Dreamcast console and forced Sega out of the hardware business. At the time when Sega needed all the support it can get from consumers to compete against its much bigger rival Sony, its copy protection was so easily hacked and its catalog of games became a regular part of Warez sites everywhere.

And falsities like this are yet another reason the myth perpetuates. While piracy played a SMALL role, it was nowhere near the reason the Dreamcast died. Keep in mind at this time dialup was still the main internet connection and cd burners while more common were not in everyones hands. You might wanna Google a bit. This is right up there with blaming the closing of the record shops on piracy.

 

[mindcycle]

What I find hilarious is the sheer number of people posting in this thread who don't understand the fundamental difference between theft and copyright infringement. They then use their lack of knowledge to somehow "expose" pirates. lol

I've seen this exact same thing happen on these forums several times in the past. I generally ignore threads on piracy nowadays since it's too exhausting to try and explain this simple concept to some people.. and IMO, you can't have a valid discussion on the subject unless the difference is understood.

 

[aigomorla]

By my estimates its over 9000% of revenues

i concure piracy must be over 9000!!! cuz the game makers keep putting in drms which break the game only to get hacked 1 day after launch and never learn!


in honesty id say its probably more 35-40% with about 1/3rd of the people who pirate ending up buying the game after they had there own version of "demo" to see if the final product will actually work on there system.

Lately game makers are getting LAZY.... ive had a couple games which just absolutely refuse to run on any system on the retail package, yet work flawlessly on the demo.
Tech support to said games is also a joke.... memebers helping other members is not what i call tech support.
And typically members helping other members mean members giving a crack.. or some kind of modded ini file to make said game work outside the publisher.

UBISOFT <--- notorious for this...

which is why a lot of members here and i have GIVEN UP entirely on UBISOFT.

 

[PhatoseAlpha]

What I find hilarious is the sheer number of people posting in this thread who don't understand the fundamental difference between theft and copyright infringement. They then use their lack of knowledge to somehow "expose" pirates. lol

I've seen this exact same thing happen on these forums several times in the past. I generally ignore threads on piracy nowadays since it's too exhausting to try and explain this simple concept to some people.. and IMO, you can't have a valid discussion on the subject unless the difference is understood.

Do you also find it hilarious when people call embezzlement theft? When your local legislature defines it as 'shoplifting', does the 'stealing' from walmart also rate an lol?

Does the whole affair merit an LOL because we're talking about definitions of legal terms with absolutely no mention of what legal framework we're actually referencing, and thus hilariously believing the laws are all the same everywhere?

Want some more funny? Several times in this thread we've seen the argument that piracy isn't 'theft' because no physical good was taken, they weren't deprived on anything. Cause hey, it's not like there are laws on the books about theft that aren't physical property, right? I mean, there's no law in my home state about theft of services, right, cause those aren't physical goods? What's that? 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 3926? Theft of Services? Hilarious, right? Cause now that basic claim of that important difference between piracy and theft has just vanished into thin air?

Or is this legal pedantry only funny when it serves an agenda?