how much do 'values' matter when you can't eat?

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: JacobJYes...lets move all the poor people to suburban ghettos....

or even better....no poor people should be allowed within 100 miles of san francisco...

Funny, my poor family lived in the shadow of San Francisco (before moving south to live in the shadow of Los Angeles) and still managed to work our way out of poverty

Again, there's absolutely nothing special about us except that we were willing to work hard and sacrifice not having as many luxuries as we would have liked.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: JacobJYes...lets move all the poor people to suburban ghettos....

or even better....no poor people should be allowed within 100 miles of san francisco...

Funny, my poor family lived in the shadow of San Francisco (before moving south to live in the shadow of Los Angeles) and still managed to work our way out of poverty

Again, there's absolutely nothing special about us except that we were willing to work hard and sacrifice not having as many luxuries as we would have liked.

NO! That's can't be! Poor people are ALL helpless victims and need crusaders like JacobJ to remind people how much they need help.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: TravisT
My grandfather, who lived through the depression, always said that a nice gentleman can become very dangerous when his kids are at home crying because they are hungry and there is no food in the house.

I believe it. It is human nature for men and women to protect their children and do whatever it takes to feed them and care for them. Even if that means robbing someone at gunpoint.

Well yeah, I'd have no qualms whatsoever about robbing someone if it was the *only* way to save my children. Unfortunately, sometimes it seems easier to get a gun and rob someone that it would be to invest some time and effort into earning an honest living. Or selling that TV. Or those expensive shoes.

Honestly, how much crime to you think can *realistically* be attributed to good people taking the only available opportunity to help themselves or their family? I'm wagering it's a number between 0% and 0.001%.

 

[JacobJ]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: JacobJYes...lets move all the poor people to suburban ghettos....

or even better....no poor people should be allowed within 100 miles of san francisco...

Funny, my poor family lived in the shadow of San Francisco (before moving south to live in the shadow of Los Angeles) and still managed to work our way out of poverty

Again, there's absolutely nothing special about us except that we were willing to work hard and sacrifice not having as many luxuries as we would have liked.

NO! That's can't be! Poor people are ALL helpless victims and need crusaders like JacobJ to remind people how much they need help.

even if my arguments are flawed...I'm happy because we're not talking about pointless bull such as gay marriage.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: JacobJYes...lets move all the poor people to suburban ghettos....

or even better....no poor people should be allowed within 100 miles of san francisco...

Funny, my poor family lived in the shadow of San Francisco (before moving south to live in the shadow of Los Angeles) and still managed to work our way out of poverty

Again, there's absolutely nothing special about us except that we were willing to work hard and sacrifice not having as many luxuries as we would have liked.

NO! That's can't be! Poor people are ALL helpless victims and need crusaders like JacobJ to remind people how much they need help.

even if my arguments are flawed...I'm happy because we're not talking about pointless bull such as gay marriage.

Meh, while *I* think that same-sex marriage issues are silly as well, you can't really call them "pointless" when they are obviously so controversial. I also believe abortion is wrong, but I don't get to declare it a non-issue, as there are lots of people who disagree with me. All reasonable discussion is healthy.

 

[jhu]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: cougarls88

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
Bull. Sh1t.

If people who work two jobs can't make ends meet, it's generally because they don't handle their money properly. I've had low paying jobs before, and it's not easy but with a little common sense it can be done.

Do you even live on this planet? I've got a newsflash for you--2 minimum wage jobs (maybe a thousand a month after taxes) doesn't go far when at least half of it goes for shelter expenses and the supermarket gets most of the rest of it. Never mind money to get to those two jobs, nor to have a phone or lights.

But then again, it's the typical elitist RW BS that seems to hang over threads like these..."pfft...doesn't effect me, so who gives a sh!+" about "those people".

To look on the bright side "At least gays can't get married!!!" :roll:

Someone needs lessons on ckie distribution. You tried to give one to a perfectly valid, reasonable post, then followed it up with a stupid, OT jab about same-sex marriage. for you!


Now, as far as your little bit of discussion goes, All I can say is that somehow, my wife, daughter, and I managed to get by while I went to college (academic scholarships, grants, student loans) and worked part-time (just above min. wage, ~20hrs week.) She also worked part-time (~35 hrs week in food service) and paid for daycare. We had a place to live (paid rent) and a vehicle (monthly payments.) We had electric, water, a TV (with cable!), and internet access. Did we eat steak twice a week? No. Did our daughter wear clothes from Baby Gap? No. Did I wear designer shoes or clothes? No. Did my wife? No, except the ones I bought her for Xmas. Was it hard to make ends meet? Yes. Was it possible? Yes.

And the point of this was not to showcase our amazing talent or abilities, only that it is quite easy to understand why some people believe the majority of the blame can be placed directly on the people responsible. Some of us have been there and seen that it is possible to survive on very little. It does require sacrifices and a lot of effort. It does require prioritization self-control. But it is possible.

Some of us are interested in actually discussing the issue, not simply playing the victim-card and throwing blame around on "elitist RW" boogiemen, mortgage companies, grocery stores, or whatever scapegoat you can conjure up to take the spotlight off the real issue. :roll:

did you have health insurance?

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: jhu

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: cougarls88

Originally posted by: AntiEverything
Bull. Sh1t.

If people who work two jobs can't make ends meet, it's generally because they don't handle their money properly. I've had low paying jobs before, and it's not easy but with a little common sense it can be done.

Do you even live on this planet? I've got a newsflash for you--2 minimum wage jobs (maybe a thousand a month after taxes) doesn't go far when at least half of it goes for shelter expenses and the supermarket gets most of the rest of it. Never mind money to get to those two jobs, nor to have a phone or lights.

But then again, it's the typical elitist RW BS that seems to hang over threads like these..."pfft...doesn't effect me, so who gives a sh!+" about "those people".

To look on the bright side "At least gays can't get married!!!" :roll:

Someone needs lessons on ckie distribution. You tried to give one to a perfectly valid, reasonable post, then followed it up with a stupid, OT jab about same-sex marriage. for you!


Now, as far as your little bit of discussion goes, All I can say is that somehow, my wife, daughter, and I managed to get by while I went to college (academic scholarships, grants, student loans) and worked part-time (just above min. wage, ~20hrs week.) She also worked part-time (~35 hrs week in food service) and paid for daycare. We had a place to live (paid rent) and a vehicle (monthly payments.) We had electric, water, a TV (with cable!), and internet access. Did we eat steak twice a week? No. Did our daughter wear clothes from Baby Gap? No. Did I wear designer shoes or clothes? No. Did my wife? No, except the ones I bought her for Xmas. Was it hard to make ends meet? Yes. Was it possible? Yes.

And the point of this was not to showcase our amazing talent or abilities, only that it is quite easy to understand why some people believe the majority of the blame can be placed directly on the people responsible. Some of us have been there and seen that it is possible to survive on very little. It does require sacrifices and a lot of effort. It does require prioritization self-control. But it is possible.

Some of us are interested in actually discussing the issue, not simply playing the victim-card and throwing blame around on "elitist RW" boogiemen, mortgage companies, grocery stores, or whatever scapegoat you can conjure up to take the spotlight off the real issue. :roll:

did you have health insurance?

Then? No. My wife and daughter had Medicare/Medicaid, which got them some free and reduced-price doctor's visits and prescription medication.

We were also on W.I.C. at the time, which let us buy some groceries (milk, cheese, peanut butter, juice etc ) at reduced prices. That helped a small bit, but we ended up giving most of those groceries to my wife's grandmother, who needed them more.

All in all, we probably relied on these government services for a little over a year, until I graduated and got a real job. They definitely helped, but I think we could have made it without them, if necessary. Unless one of us got extremely sick, then we'd have been be up shit-creek, I suppose.

 

[ATIuser]

Believe me Bush Policies may hurt now but will help in the long run. People who can't find decent paying work start their own businesses. Some of those grow and employ other people and keep the economy running. I voted for Bush not because it was going to help my wallet. Because I knew it was the right thing to do even if it meant I might be worse off finanically.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Funny, my poor family lived in the shadow of San Francisco (before moving south to live in the shadow of Los Angeles) and still managed to work our way out of poverty

Again, there's absolutely nothing special about us except that we were willing to work hard and sacrifice not having as many luxuries as we would have liked.

Did you get any special aid? Most of the people I know who worked there way out of poverty got some kind of aid wealthier people don't get.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Funny, my poor family lived in the shadow of San Francisco (before moving south to live in the shadow of Los Angeles) and still managed to work our way out of poverty

Again, there's absolutely nothing special about us except that we were willing to work hard and sacrifice not having as many luxuries as we would have liked.

Did you get any special aid? Most of the people I know who worked there way out of poverty got some kind of aid wealthier people don't get.

Hmmm...none that I can recall. My mom has to go to an inexpensive state school while working part time and my dad took certification classes whenever he had the money...Lotus, Cadkey, Unix, Novell, Windows ME, among other things. Sometimes, the company he was working for would pay for his certification classes which is sort of like outside aid.

No big government help though.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Funny, my poor family lived in the shadow of San Francisco (before moving south to live in the shadow of Los Angeles) and still managed to work our way out of poverty

Again, there's absolutely nothing special about us except that we were willing to work hard and sacrifice not having as many luxuries as we would have liked.

Did you get any special aid? Most of the people I know who worked there way out of poverty got some kind of aid wealthier people don't get.

Hmmm...none that I can recall. My mom has to go to an inexpensive state school while working part time and my dad took certification classes whenever he had the money...Lotus, Cadkey, Unix, Novell, Windows ME, among other things. Sometimes, the company he was working for would pay for his certification classes which is sort of like outside aid.

No big government help though.

Guess it comes down to what you qualify as poverty then... Working with computers doesn't sound very poor.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ATIuser
Believe me Bush Policies may hurt now but will help in the long run. People who can't find decent paying work start their own businesses. Some of those grow and employ other people and keep the economy running. I voted for Bush not because it was going to help my wallet. Because I knew it was the right thing to do even if it meant I might be worse off finanically.

People who can't find decent paying work start their own businesses

Yeah right and how are they supposed to afford starting a business when there isn't enough for food???

and who were you before being banned???

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: AntiEverything

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: X-Man
because if you work hard enough, you have an opportunity to raise your social standing in life.

That used to be the case the majority of the time, sadly that is now the exception rather than the rule.

Why? Because you're a tard and got yourself fired?

Anybody can improve their standard of living in this country if they want to. Problem is that most people expect it to happen without any effort.

How dare you say that when people in the United States work two jobs and still struggle to make ends meet. Millions of americans work very hard and still live in poverty.

And what is your "solution"?

CsG

I wish I had one. That being said, I think it's more important for us to be arguing about hunger in the united states than gay marriage, or red vs. blue. Who cares about that crap when you can't eat?

Poverty is a real issue. Hunger is a real issue.

Maybe we can find a solution by talking about it.

Well, you can sit around bickering about it while others ponder workable solutions. The issue isn't about this vs other issues - or atleast it shouldn't be unless you're just looking to pick a fight, take a half-asses swipe at people who think "values" are important, or to bash the "rich". This issue should be talked about and discussed in the arena of ideas - not the partisan cage match environment....again assuming there really is concern about this issue.

Like AntiEverything - I supported a family on a very meager income(less than his) for a while and have made choices in life to better myself and work to where I am today. I think making people realize that they actually are in control of their situation is the place to start - because too many today have this idea that there is nothing they can do about their situation and thus are holding themselves down.

Just my $.02

CsG

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
Funny, my poor family lived in the shadow of San Francisco (before moving south to live in the shadow of Los Angeles) and still managed to work our way out of poverty

Again, there's absolutely nothing special about us except that we were willing to work hard and sacrifice not having as many luxuries as we would have liked.

Did you get any special aid? Most of the people I know who worked there way out of poverty got some kind of aid wealthier people don't get.

Hmmm...none that I can recall. My mom has to go to an inexpensive state school while working part time and my dad took certification classes whenever he had the money...Lotus, Cadkey, Unix, Novell, Windows ME, among other things. Sometimes, the company he was working for would pay for his certification classes which is sort of like outside aid.

No big government help though.

Guess it comes down to what you qualify as poverty then... Working with computers doesn't sound very poor.

Nah, learning how to work with computers is how he got away from the poor people jobs. When I was born, his job was answering phones.

Remember, personal computers have only been widely used by businesses for the last 15 years or so, if that, and I'm just a little older than that

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Guess it comes down to what you qualify as poverty then... Working with computers doesn't sound very poor.

Nah, learning how to work with computers is how he got away from the poor people jobs.

No kidding. The local library has dozens of computers that you can use.. for free! And there's also community colleges, part-time jobs involving computers with OTJ training, and the fact that you can get a complete PC (new or used) for the same price as about 4-6 months of cable television. Opportunities abound! Some people just refuse to seek them out.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: JacobJYes...lets move all the poor people to suburban ghettos....

or even better....no poor people should be allowed within 100 miles of san francisco...

Funny, my poor family lived in the shadow of San Francisco (before moving south to live in the shadow of Los Angeles) and still managed to work our way out of poverty

Again, there's absolutely nothing special about us except that we were willing to work hard and sacrifice not having as many luxuries as we would have liked.

NO! That's can't be! Poor people are ALL helpless victims and need crusaders like JacobJ to remind people how much they need help.

Ha ha, my parents didn't know enough about the country at that time to realize they were supposed to feel like victims

 

[Tekime]

It' too bad that this country has so many unmotivated, leeching, stupid people driving up the poverty numbers. It's hard to help those in real need with all the slacker pieces of sh** in every city.

My GF works at a grocery store to support herself while going to school. She works/schools 8:30am to 10:30PM, 7 days a week. You know how it makes her feel when people come in with food stamps, buy 8 bottles of smiling hill milk, then come back 10 minutes later to return those 8 empty bottles, get cash, and buy a bottle of liquor? And if you don't catch that, they're dumping it out around the corner to support their drinking habit. On our tax dollars. And it happens... a LOT.

You know how many time I see obese moms hustling five kids around the store with a fistful of food stamps? They're called condoms, you dumb bitch. Don't you care about your children enough to think about what you can afford before popping them out left and right?

And who buys up all of the cigarettes and Budweiser in this country? It ain't the top 5%, that's for sure. Talk about a vicious cycle.

There are a lot of people with real need, but I think there are a lot more people who are just too lazy to take care of themselves. Increasing government spending and minimum wage is not the solution. The solution is educating these idiots who are destroying the purpose of the system so we can actually help the people that need it.

I think if someone is already struggling, and has a kid, or two or three, and asks for more help, they should have their children taken away from them until they clean up their act. Not pretty, but this is a downward spiral and increasing government funding for every lazy SOB in the country to suckle on is not going to help. This country needs to get some pride back, some work ethic, and some good old common sense. Even up here in Maine, where work ethic is strong, we have hordes of people coming in from every inch of the globe, collecting welfare checks and food stamps, and working a measly 40 hours a week and crying about it.

I'm sure I sound like a real asshole saying this, but I don't particularly care. I work, literally, 140+ per week, struggling to keep my business above water, and still have just enough to put bread on the table. I know what it means to bust your ass, and if working 40 hours per week doesn't feed your kids, go get a second, or third f-ing job. I go to bed at 6am, get up at 8:30am, 7 days a week, and it kills me. I'm probably shaving years off my life by doing it, but I'm doing what I have to to take care of my own and build a future for myself. Would I have a kid now? Not a chance, I have an IQ at least slightly higher than that of a bag of potato chips.

I will say again though, there are people in need, I'm not denying that fact. But how are we to sort them out? We have built a reliance on our government that should never have been there. People need to look out for themselves.

I can't think of one situation, even if I had eight kids, that I wouldn't be able to make work eventually. Short term rehabilitation vs. long term support is I think the only viable way to go to get our sh** together as a country, and get back some of that pride in our ability to work hard and earn a living for ourselves.

 

[daniel1113]

Conversly, how much does eating matter if you don't have any values?

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: illustri
I guess walmart's values matter.

Yeah, and Wal Mart's stores make it a little bit easier for those poor families to *afford* to eat.

The term "struggle to eat" is very, VERY loaded and amazingly vague. In either case, if the implication is that we need a new Social program to handle the issue, forget it.

Jason

 

[TheGameIs21]

Originally posted by: Tekime

It' too bad that this country has so many unmotivated, leeching, stupid people driving up the poverty numbers. It's hard to help those in real need with all the slacker pieces of sh** in every city.

My GF works at a grocery store to support herself while going to school. She works/schools 8:30am to 10:30PM, 7 days a week. You know how it makes her feel when people come in with food stamps, buy 8 bottles of smiling hill milk, then come back 10 minutes later to return those 8 empty bottles, get cash, and buy a bottle of liquor? And if you don't catch that, they're dumping it out around the corner to support their drinking habit. On our tax dollars. And it happens... a LOT.

You know how many time I see obese moms hustling five kids around the store with a fistful of food stamps? They're called condoms, you dumb bitch. Don't you care about your children enough to think about what you can afford before popping them out left and right?

And who buys up all of the cigarettes and Budweiser in this country? It ain't the top 5%, that's for sure. Talk about a vicious cycle.

There are a lot of people with real need, but I think there are a lot more people who are just too lazy to take care of themselves. Increasing government spending and minimum wage is not the solution. The solution is educating these idiots who are destroying the purpose of the system so we can actually help the people that need it.

I think if someone is already struggling, and has a kid, or two or three, and asks for more help, they should have their children taken away from them until they clean up their act. Not pretty, but this is a downward spiral and increasing government funding for every lazy SOB in the country to suckle on is not going to help. This country needs to get some pride back, some work ethic, and some good old common sense. Even up here in Maine, where work ethic is strong, we have hordes of people coming in from every inch of the globe, collecting welfare checks and food stamps, and working a measly 40 hours a week and crying about it.

I'm sure I sound like a real asshole saying this, but I don't particularly care. I work, literally, 140+ per week, struggling to keep my business above water, and still have just enough to put bread on the table. I know what it means to bust your ass, and if working 40 hours per week doesn't feed your kids, go get a second, or third f-ing job. I go to bed at 6am, get up at 8:30am, 7 days a week, and it kills me. I'm probably shaving years off my life by doing it, but I'm doing what I have to to take care of my own and build a future for myself. Would I have a kid now? Not a chance, I have an IQ at least slightly higher than that of a bag of potato chips.

I will say again though, there are people in need, I'm not denying that fact. But how are we to sort them out? We have built a reliance on our government that should never have been there. People need to look out for themselves.

I can't think of one situation, even if I had eight kids, that I wouldn't be able to make work eventually. Short term rehabilitation vs. long term support is I think the only viable way to go to get our sh** together as a country, and get back some of that pride in our ability to work hard and earn a living for ourselves.

:: GASP ::

I commend you on your dedication to work and taking care of your family. I am of the same mindset. I will work three jobs if that is what it takes to keep my home and feed my family. I have worked 2 full time jobs before just to compensate for being layed off. It all comes down to what you are willing to do for yourself. If you aren't willing to take care of yourself, it shouldn't be the governments responsibility to do it for you.

People say that their situation is directly tied to the current administration. Most of them had 50 - 100 K jobs and bought a 200K house, two 30 K cars, all the newest computer parts, all the newest A/V home systems. Never once looking at a savings account. Never once caring that they can't afford the monthly payments AND eat while buying all this crap. Then when they are laid off... BUSH HAS RUINED ME!!! Comeon... you ruined yourself when you didn't pay attention to common sense.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
12 Million and growing, horayyy for the good Ol USA, way to go :thumbsup:

12 million out of nearly 3 HUNDRED million ain't bad. Man, is this forum populated by reactionaries looking for a reason to be pissed or what?

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: JacobJ

Originally posted by: rbloedow
Ahh, billybob and mary sue can't afford to buy Mcdonalds for their every meal so their fat asses, and their 5 fat ass children, don't have to cook in their doublewide with their 60" big screen TV and 6 billion channels. Boo Hoo.

you sound like a fvkcing asshole. What right do you have to judge people who are living in poverty?

Well, if you have to ask, he has EVERY right to judge. No right to DO anything about their situation, but every right in the world to JUDGE.

To ask "what right do you have to judge?" is the same as to ask "what right do you have to THINK!?"

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: AntiEverything

Originally posted by: isasir
One of the things in the debates that stuck out to me was Kerry's desire to raise the minimum wage to $8/hr. So while this wasn't a major focus of the elections, this would help alleviate the problem of people feeding themselves (assuming of course they put food high on their priority list of necessities.)

I've come to realize though that a lot of people really just care about themselves (hence "moral values" having such an impact on the election) and as long as these poor people don't harass them for change, they'll just continue on their merry way.

You don't understand economics, do you. $8/hr would simply put those businesses who pay minimum wage out of business.

Or let's understand it this way: You CAN'T solve unemployment by making some people's jobs ILLEGAL. When you raise the minimum wage to say, $8 an hour, you're telling that poor person, in effect, "It's better for you to have NO JOB AT ALL than one that pays $7 an hour."

So glad we have you compassionate people around to save the world for poor people.

:roll:

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: jhu
so the issue is, why do people have children when they can't even take care of themselves?

Because they like to fvck!

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: JacobJ
what people? should janitors have the right to have children????

Yes, they should have the RIGHT to have children and the RESPONSIBILITY to bear the consequences of their decisions.

Jason