How many Americans deaths will Trump be directly responsible for due to COVID-45

[SMOGZINN]

It fully brings in effect a proper meritocracy.

There is no such thing as a true meritocracy. The entire concept requires that there be some final arbitrator for the value of merits. Who gets to decide what is true merit? Why do they get to decide that? How did it get decided that they merit the ability to decide what others people merit is?
Basically the entire idea of a meritocracy requires that there be a god that takes an active role in the valuation of merit.

 

[you2]

There is no such thing as a true meritocracy. The entire concept requires that there be some final arbitrator for the value of merits. Who gets to decide what is true merit? Why do they get to decide that? How did it get decided that they merit the ability to decide what others people merit is?
Basically the entire idea of a meritocracy requires that there be a god that takes an active role in the valuation of merit.

I suppose that may be true; but in the dead of night of Oct 30th the republican legislators of the great state of Tennessee felt it necessary to ban many proactive actions to limit the spread of covid-19 including prevention of checking if one has been vaccinated or requiring the wearing of masks.

Now you might not classify this as meritocracy but i classify it as moronic.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I suppose that may be true; but in the dead of night of Oct 30th the republican legislators of the great state of Tennessee felt it necessary to ban many proactive actions to limit the spread of covid-19 including prevention of checking if one has been vaccinated or requiring the wearing of masks.

Now you might not classify this as meritocracy but i classify it as moronic.

There is no doubt that the GOP has decided to go full frontal Idiocracy. It is the natural end game once you start arguing that we should ignore expertise because we don't want educated people telling us what to do.

 

[Commodus]

There is no such thing as a true meritocracy. The entire concept requires that there be some final arbitrator for the value of merits. Who gets to decide what is true merit? Why do they get to decide that? How did it get decided that they merit the ability to decide what others people merit is?
Basically the entire idea of a meritocracy requires that there be a god that takes an active role in the valuation of merit.

That's why it's easy to snicker when people shout "meritocracy..." and you realize those people are typically white, conservative-leaning men.

Yeah, it's easy to insist on meritocracy when you get to dictate what those merits are, and the system tends to favor you by default. But I'll bet the pro-meritocracy camp would cry foul if a black woman took a coveted job for all the "right" reasons, even if they insisted they wouldn't do it beforehand.

 

[hal2kilo]

I think he's referring to the new deal, which got Americans out of desperate times after capitalists created the stock crash and subsequent great depression. Most Americans loved FDR.

Sao just lives in some alt reality where rural Americans dont need those city slickers, and social programs are the work of the evil liberals.

My grandmother would get a tear in her eye talking about what FDR did during the depression. And no potential fuckwads, they were tears of joy.

 

[hal2kilo]

That is vile.

Hey, you are conversing with Zorg Lite.

 

[DarthKyrie]

My grandmother would get a tear in her eye talking about what FDR did during the depression. And no potential fuckwads, they were tears of joy.

My grandparents were much the same when they talked about FDR.

 

[pmv]

There is no such thing as a true meritocracy. The entire concept requires that there be some final arbitrator for the value of merits. Who gets to decide what is true merit? Why do they get to decide that? How did it get decided that they merit the ability to decide what others people merit is?
Basically the entire idea of a meritocracy requires that there be a god that takes an active role in the valuation of merit.

The funny thing is, very term "meritocracy" was originally invented as a _negative_ word. It was supposed to signify a _bad_ thing.

Michael Young, Baron Young of Dartington - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 1958, Young also wrote the influential satire The Rise of the Meritocracy, originally for the Fabian Society, which refused to publish it. In it he coined the word "meritocracy", to which he gave negative connotations, and he became disappointed with how the concept came to be seen as an achievable concept worth pursuing.[2]

In any case, as you say, it's a chimera. What gets judged as constituting 'merit' depends on the balance of power in a society, which makes 'meritocracy' a circular concept. A society where power is held by those with merit - where merit is determined by...those with power.

 

[conehead433]

"In October, 25 out of every 100,000 residents of heavily Trump counties died from Covid, more than three times higher than the rate in heavily Biden counties (7.8 per 100,000). October was the fifth consecutive month that the percentage gap between the death rates in Trump counties and Biden counties widened.

Some conservative writers have tried to claim that the gap may stem from regional differences in weather or age, but those arguments fall apart under scrutiny. (If weather or age were a major reason, the pattern would have begun to appear last year.) The true explanation is straightforward: The vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing severe Covid, and almost 40 percent of Republican adults remain unvaccinated, compared with about 10 percent of Democratic adults.​

Charles Gaba, a Democratic health care analyst, has pointed out that the gap is also evident at finer gradations of political analysis: Counties where Trump received at least 70 percent of the vote have an even higher average Covid death toll than counties where Trump won at least 60 percent.​

As a result, Covid deaths have been concentrated in counties outside of major metropolitan areas. Many of these are in red states, while others are in red parts of blue or purple states, like Arizona, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Oregon, Virginia and even California."​

From a NY Times The Morning newsletter.
Just keep up the trend. Go Big Red!

 

[DarthKyrie]

"In October, 25 out of every 100,000 residents of heavily Trump counties died from Covid, more than three times higher than the rate in heavily Biden counties (7.8 per 100,000). October was the fifth consecutive month that the percentage gap between the death rates in Trump counties and Biden counties widened.

Some conservative writers have tried to claim that the gap may stem from regional differences in weather or age, but those arguments fall apart under scrutiny. (If weather or age were a major reason, the pattern would have begun to appear last year.) The true explanation is straightforward: The vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing severe Covid, and almost 40 percent of Republican adults remain unvaccinated, compared with about 10 percent of Democratic adults.​

Charles Gaba, a Democratic health care analyst, has pointed out that the gap is also evident at finer gradations of political analysis: Counties where Trump received at least 70 percent of the vote have an even higher average Covid death toll than counties where Trump won at least 60 percent.​

As a result, Covid deaths have been concentrated in counties outside of major metropolitan areas. Many of these are in red states, while others are in red parts of blue or purple states, like Arizona, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Oregon, Virginia and even California."​

From a NY Times The Morning newsletter.
Just keep up the trend. Go Big Red!

We all know that this is somehow the fault of those evil "Demonrats" and their reverse psychology when it comes to MAGA.

 

[Fenixgoon]

in a not-shocking turn of events, more evidence is found on how the Trump administration prevented the CDC from properly communicating with the public

House committee releases new evidence from investigation into Trump administration interference with CDC during Covid-19 pandemic

The House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Crisis released to CNN on Friday new evidence showing how US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention officials were pressured by Trump administration officials to alter scientific guidance and prevented from communicating directly with the public.

www.cnn.com

 

[sandorski]

Shocking...

 

[you2]

Seems we have passed the 800,000 mark:

U.S. sets somber record as Covid deaths surpass 800,000, more than any other country

The country's first coronavirus deaths were traced to Northern California in February 2020.

www.nbcnews.com

Not all of these are due to Trump but probably over 500K

 

[uclaLabrat]

Probably a fair assessment. His willingness to cater to the vaccine conspiracy theories no doubt has prolonged and exacerbated this entire thing.

 

[Captante]

Seems we have passed the 800,000 mark:

U.S. sets somber record as Covid deaths surpass 800,000, more than any other country

The country's first coronavirus deaths were traced to Northern California in February 2020.

www.nbcnews.com

Not all of these are due to Trump but probably over 500K

Wish I could say this surprised me.

 

[fskimospy]

Probably a fair assessment. His willingness to cater to the vaccine conspiracy theories no doubt has prolonged and exacerbated this entire thing.

It's sad to imagine a world where Trump enthusiastically embraced the vaccines from the start - could have even called it the Trump Vaccine!

 

[GodisanAtheist]

It's sad to imagine a world where Trump enthusiastically embraced the vaccines from the start - could have even called it the Trump Vaccine!

-Whole thing is so politicized that we already had this flip-flop and no one noticed.

Right wing went from "Trump got us a vaccine in one year operation warp speed lets gooooooooo" to "Vaccine is literally trash, don't mandate this vaccine, hit me with that dewormer and hell throw in some horse ED pills too! Here is a bunch of disinformation on the efficacy of the vaccine of preventing death or serious illness! Lets go brandon!"

On the other hand, you had plenty on the left starting with "Its a vaccine developed under Trump's leadership, of course its going to be rushed garbage with a bunch of corners cut, can't trust any Federal agency" to "Yes, please sir may I have my 4th booster which won't stop transmission, and also please make sure you give my child who is at absurdly low risk from Covid to begin with a couple extra shots of this brand new vaccine with no longitudinal health data!"

 

[fskimospy]

-Whole thing is so politicized that we already had this flip-flop and no one noticed.

Right wing went from "Trump got us a vaccine in one year operation warp speed lets gooooooooo" to "Vaccine is literally trash, don't mandate this vaccine, hit me with that dewormer and hell throw in some horse ED pills too! Here is a bunch of disinformation on the efficacy of the vaccine of preventing death or serious illness! Lets go brandon!"

On the other hand, you had plenty on the left starting with "Its a vaccine developed under Trump's leadership, of course its going to be rushed garbage with a bunch of corners cut, can't trust any Federal agency" to "Yes, please sir may I have my 4th booster which won't stop transmission, and also please make sure you give my child who is at absurdly low risk from Covid to begin with a couple extra shots of this brand new vaccine with no longitudinal health data!"

You really didn't have that, that's a made up thing about the left. This is usually attributed to Kamala Harris but if you read what she actually said it was 100% sensible and correct. She said she wouldn't take the Trump Administration's word on safety and efficacy alone, which of course is common sense as they lied about everything. She instead said she would wait for the experts to weigh in, and once they did she endorsed the vaccine as well.

As far as booster shots and shots for children, of course we should do both, this is common sense. First, we have extensive health data on vaccines of all sorts and essentially NONE of them have long term effects that are not evident very shortly after they are administered. Since we don't see any, reasonable conjecture says they are highly unlikely. There's also no reason to believe subsequent doses of the vaccine would change this equation.

When you mention children, this is also wrong. While it's true that the vaccines don't entirely prevent transmission, they do significantly reduce the odds of catching the disease and when you do have it you are infectious for a shorter period of time, so all of this helps reduce the spread of the disease. It's very unwise to choose not to vaccinate children and just leave this large repository of infectious people around to generate new variants and/or sicken vulnerable people.

So basically the left did it exactly right. No need for #bothsides nonsense.

 

[pmv]

On the other hand, you had plenty on the left starting with "Its a vaccine developed under Trump's leadership, of course its going to be rushed garbage with a bunch of corners cut, can't trust any Federal agency" to "Yes, please sir may I have my 4th booster which won't stop transmission, and also please make sure you give my child who is at absurdly low risk from Covid to begin with a couple extra shots of this brand new vaccine with no longitudinal health data!"

Honestly I never saw anyone on 'the left' saying that first thing there. Maybe the US was different.

Also a commentator on the radio here was earlier decrying that Biden wasn't giving sufficient urgency to the need to give booster jabs. It was kind of a back-handed complicment to Johnson, I suppose, as he's making a very big deal out of trying to get everyone triple-jabbed.

Does sound to me as if the US may get badly hit by Omicron, though, if even the "left" are not taking it seriously enough.

 

[fskimospy]

Honestly I never saw anyone on 'the left' saying that first thing there. Maybe the US was different.

Also a commentator on the radio here was earlier decrying that Biden wasn't giving sufficient urgency to the need to give booster jabs. It was kind of a back-handed complicment to Johnson, I suppose, as he's making a very big deal out of trying to get everyone triple-jabbed.

Does sound to me as if the US may get badly hit by Omicron, though, if even the "left" are not taking it seriously enough.

The good news is that initial evidence shows Omicron is much milder than previous strains. This could be because it is inherently milder, or that prior infection/vaccination still provides significant protection against severe disease. Either way though, it seems that this wave will likely be much milder than previous ones. (fingers crossed!)

So I think there's a decent argument to take it less seriously, contingent on the data remaining as encouraging as it is so far.

 

[pmv]

The good news is that initial evidence shows Omicron is much milder than previous strains. This could be because it is inherently milder, or that prior infection/vaccination still provides significant protection against severe disease. Either way though, it seems that this wave will likely be much milder than previous ones. (fingers crossed!)

So I think there's a decent argument to take it less seriously, contingent on the data remaining as encouraging as it is so far.

I think it's too early to say that. Been one omicron-related death here already, and increasing number of hospitalizations. I guess we just won't know for another week or two, given the usual 'lag'. (They are saying that in SA the early cases have all been in younger people, so you'd expect the effect to be milder...but doesn't mean it will be the same when it spreads to other groups).

 

[GodisanAtheist]

You really didn't have that, that's a made up thing about the left. This is usually attributed to Kamala Harris but if you read what she actually said it was 100% sensible and correct. She said she wouldn't take the Trump Administration's word on safety and efficacy alone, which of course is common sense as they lied about everything. She instead said she would wait for the experts to weigh in, and once they did she endorsed the vaccine as well.

-Fair, but Kamla Harris is not the only person in the world who's words matter. Anecdotally, there was plenty of ground level grumbling about the vaccine (I live in the Bay Area, after all) and I have more than a sneaking suspicion that had Trump won a second term, the shoe would be on the other foot right now.

As far as booster shots and shots for children, of course we should do both, this is common sense. First, we have extensive health data on vaccines of all sorts and essentially NONE of them have long term effects that are not evident very shortly after they are administered. Since we don't see any, reasonable conjecture says they are highly unlikely. There's also no reason to believe subsequent doses of the vaccine would change this equation.

- Couple things here: Not all vaccines are created equal. This is the first widespread distribution of an mRNA vaccine. Do I think the mRNA portion is inherently dangerous? No. But it does have to be packaged differently than a standard attenuated vaccine in order to maintain the mRNA's integrity. Yes. And the devil is really in the details there.

You have a bit of survivorship bias here too: of course none of the vaccines that are part of the regular schedule have major issues: they've all been out for decades, and there was never a huge rush to move them through the FDA approval process. Every vaccine that did have issues never made it to market.

There is evidently enough of a concern about myocarditis that companies like Moderna have delayed FDA approval until they are able to run additional, more comprehensive tests on the effects their vaccine formulation has on people under a certain age group. How are these side effects going to impact or alter health trajectories over time? No one really knows.

The Moderna and Myocarditis Link Needs More Study

The risks of heart inflammation are tiny, but the findings could have implications for how mRNA vaccines are delivered in the future.

www.bloomberg.com

When you mention children, this is also wrong. While it's true that the vaccines don't entirely prevent transmission, they do significantly reduce the odds of catching the disease and when you do have it you are infectious for a shorter period of time, so all of this helps reduce the spread of the disease. It's very unwise to choose not to vaccinate children and just leave this large repository of infectious people around to generate new variants and/or sicken vulnerable people.

So basically the left did it exactly right. No need for #bothsides nonsense.

- Not an anti-vaxer here, gonna get my flu shot and will probably mix in the Covid booster in the process. That being said, I'm not exactly comfortable getting my kids poked with something that has not been fully rung through the ringer. Numerically speaking, Covid is simply not enough of a threat to them, and all of the adults around them are vaccinated, so we should be afforded the protection you describe.

Hell my kids will go get their flu shot with me, tried and tested, no surprises in that vaccination.

 

[fskimospy]

I think it's too early to say that. Been one omicron-related death here already, and increasing number of hospitalizations. I guess we just won't know for another week or two, given the usual 'lag'.

I disagree - South Africa's data clearly shows dramatically decreased hospitalization/death rates as compared to the original variant and delta. We know that infections are milder with Omicron, the major question is why. If we're lucky, it's inherently less virulent, if not it's still good news that prior infection/vaccination provides significant protection.

 

[JEDIYoda]

It's sad to imagine a world where Trump enthusiastically embraced the vaccines from the start - could have even called it the Trump Vaccine!

Personally, I have biscuits and sausage gravy every morning! This has resulted in an immunity to the virus!! I draw the line at the Trump cure of a double McGriddle every morning!!

 

[fskimospy]

-Fair, but Kamla Harris is not the only person in the world who's words matter. Anecdotally, there was plenty of ground level grumbling about the vaccine (I live in the Bay Area, after all) and I have more than a sneaking suspicion that had Trump won a second term, the shoe would be on the other foot right now.

It's possible, but even while Trump was president liberals were taking far more COVID precautions than conservatives so my guess would be their response would be broadly similar to what we've seen.

- Couple things here: Not all vaccines are created equal. This is the first widespread distribution of an mRNA vaccine. Do I think the mRNA portion is inherently dangerous? No. But it does have to be packaged differently than a standard attenuated vaccine in order to maintain the mRNA's integrity. Yes. And the devil is really in the details there.

You have a bit of survivorship bias here too: of course none of the vaccines that are part of the regular schedule have major issues: they've all been out for decades, and there was never a huge rush to move them through the FDA approval process. Every vaccine that did have issues never made it to market.

There is evidently enough of a concern about myocarditis that companies like Moderna have delayed FDA approval until they are able to run additional, more comprehensive tests on the effects their vaccine formulation has on people under a certain age group. How are these side effects going to impact or alter health trajectories over time? No one really knows.

The Moderna and Myocarditis Link Needs More Study

The risks of heart inflammation are tiny, but the findings could have implications for how mRNA vaccines are delivered in the future.

www.bloomberg.com

I think survivorship bias is a good point but I'm genuinely unaware of ANY vaccine that had some sort of long term side effects that were not evident within a few months of injection.

- Not an anti-vaxer here, gonna get my flu shot and will probably mix in the Covid booster in the process. That being said, I'm not exactly comfortable getting my kids poked with something that has not been fully rung through the ringer. Numerically speaking, Covid is simply not enough of a threat to them, and all of the adults around them are vaccinated, so we should be afforded the protection you describe.

Hell my kids will go get their flu shot with me, tried and tested, no surprises in that vaccination.

I hear this - parents are obviously super protective of their children. As an FYI though if you're concerned about heart damage from the vaccine apparently COVID is far more likely to cause heart damage in children, not to mention the other long term effects if can cause.

How Often Do Covid Vaccines Cause Heart Problems in Kids? (Published 2021)

The latest data is reassuring. Myocarditis remains very uncommon, and it is almost always mild and temporary. The heart risk from Covid-19 itself is far greater.

www.nytimes.com