GeekDrew
Diamond Member
- Jun 7, 2000
- 9,099
- 19
- 81
Have any basis for that, DannyBoy?
heh... Ever driven a John Deere 4230 with 2 fully loaded grain wagons behind you, going down a steep hill, at approximately 25 MPH? Now picture a large animal suddenly appearing on the road, about 100 feet ahead of you. You learn what locking the brakes up is VERY quickly. More people should have to go through that experience.
Originally posted by: AgaBooga
Originally posted by: m2kewl
seeing all your car posts...
maybe driving's too hard for you
doh!
I'm new and not knowing something doesn't mean I suck at it
I mean, that's like saying you suck at baseball before learning what it is and how to play it
Apples and oranges. If you make an error while playing baseball, it's very unlikely someone will die. On the other hand.....
LOL. ABS is amazing on dry pavement, but when it's not very nice out (extreme downpour or ice/snow), ABS does pretty much didlysquat.Originally posted by: OS
I never realized until today how many people think ABS is magic and gives you full stopping power on ice or otherwise inclement conditions. It's really amazing and scary at the same time. I hope none of you guys drive on the same roads as me.
brakes lock when you apply them too hard and you exceed the tire's traction (which varies according to road surface and conditions). yay.
as for ABS, yeah, it just helps you make "best" use of what traction there is available. it still can't stop you very fast on ice or snow simply because there isn't any traction for it to work with. it helps the average driver maximize braking potential, but it doesn't increase that potential.
as for ABS, yeah, it just helps you make "best" use of what traction there is available. it still can't stop you very fast on ice or snow simply because there isn't any traction for it to work with. it helps the average driver maximize braking potential, but it doesn't increase that potential.
Originally posted by: KraziKid
LOL. ABS is amazing on dry pavement, but when it's not very nice out (extreme downpour or ice/snow), ABS does pretty much didlysquat.Originally posted by: OS
I never realized until today how many people think ABS is magic and gives you full stopping power on ice or otherwise inclement conditions. It's really amazing and scary at the same time. I hope none of you guys drive on the same roads as me.
abs does NOTHING on dry pavement. ...
Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
Originally posted by: KraziKid
LOL. ABS is amazing on dry pavement, but when it's not very nice out (extreme downpour or ice/snow), ABS does pretty much didlysquat.Originally posted by: OS
I never realized until today how many people think ABS is magic and gives you full stopping power on ice or otherwise inclement conditions. It's really amazing and scary at the same time. I hope none of you guys drive on the same roads as me.
abs does NOTHING on dry pavement. ...
ok, lets say we have 2 of the exact same cars....one with abs and one without abs...on dry pavement going about 40 mph and then flooring the brake....which car stops in less distance?
Originally posted by: Cooljt1
Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
Originally posted by: KraziKid
LOL. ABS is amazing on dry pavement, but when it's not very nice out (extreme downpour or ice/snow), ABS does pretty much didlysquat.Originally posted by: OS
I never realized until today how many people think ABS is magic and gives you full stopping power on ice or otherwise inclement conditions. It's really amazing and scary at the same time. I hope none of you guys drive on the same roads as me.
abs does NOTHING on dry pavement. ...
ok, lets say we have 2 of the exact same cars....one with abs and one without abs...on dry pavement going about 40 mph and then flooring the brake....which car stops in less distance?
theoretically car with ABS could require a greater distance to come to a stop.
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: v3rrv3
I personally am not a huge fan of ABS. It's ub0r cold/snowy where I am right now, whenever I start sliding, it starts pulsing/pumping and it freaks me out, I want to push down even hard
- Kevin
sounds like a problem with you and not the abs.
lol how true =P
But actually, on a car with ABS pushing down harder isn't going to lock your brakes anyways so no harm no foul.
And some cars pulse more than others with their ABS systems...
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Cooljt1
Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
Originally posted by: KraziKid
LOL. ABS is amazing on dry pavement, but when it's not very nice out (extreme downpour or ice/snow), ABS does pretty much didlysquat.Originally posted by: OS
I never realized until today how many people think ABS is magic and gives you full stopping power on ice or otherwise inclement conditions. It's really amazing and scary at the same time. I hope none of you guys drive on the same roads as me.
abs does NOTHING on dry pavement. ...
ok, lets say we have 2 of the exact same cars....one with abs and one without abs...on dry pavement going about 40 mph and then flooring the brake....which car stops in less distance?
theoretically car with ABS could require a greater distance to come to a stop.
Unfortunately this theory assumes that the driver is god-like in his ability to modulate the brakes. The only time where regular people could beat out ABS was when ABS was first equipped in cars years ago. It's been well over a decade since then(it's 2004 ya know), and ABS has come such a long way, with things like Electronic Brake Distribution(where each brake is independently adjusted for braking power) and other things that if you could outbrake an ABS equipped car you'd have to pretty much be either:
a)Neo!
b)A Jedi with mastery of the force
or c)God or a god of some sort
depends on the driver, and the abs system
average person = abs
good driver / inefficient abs system = non-abs
calling it a brake lock-up is kind of a misnomenclature
Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
Originally posted by: KraziKid
LOL. ABS is amazing on dry pavement, but when it's not very nice out (extreme downpour or ice/snow), ABS does pretty much didlysquat.Originally posted by: OS
I never realized until today how many people think ABS is magic and gives you full stopping power on ice or otherwise inclement conditions. It's really amazing and scary at the same time. I hope none of you guys drive on the same roads as me.
abs does NOTHING on dry pavement. ...
ABS is amazing on both drive pavement and in snow and ice. In fact, it's amazing all around. If you believe anything else you're a moron. I hate to say it but it's dumbfounding what ridiculous things people will believe about ABS.
Fact: ABS(setups with EBD at any rate) keeps you from spinning out when hard braking in snow/ice/rain/whatever
Fact: ABS helps you maintain traction when hard braking on dry pavement and thus decreases your stopping distance
Fact: You can NOT modulate the brakes better than a modern ABS setup. It pumps the brakes hundreds of times a second. If you can do that...well you need to see a doctor about your foot. Furthermore, even if you COULD pump the brakes that fast(while also detecting slip through the pedal due to your godlike powers), you still wouldn't be able to individually adjust braking power to EACH wheel. Which means while you have to brake lighter to prevent one wheel from slipping, ABS is using full force on the other wheels which have traction, causing ABS to be superior to you anyway.
You will NOT beat ABS. Period.
Originally posted by: LS20
depends on the driver, and the abs system
average person = abs
good driver / inefficient abs system = non-abs
calling it a brake lock-up is kind of a misnomenclature
I suppose an early ABS system would be one of the inefficient ones, and most of those didn't have electronic braking distribution either. And I suppose if you have race-car driver type skills you might even be able to compete with circa-1996 ABS technology lol.
But for new cars, no way in hell is this gonna fly. Even the ones without electronic braking distribution would whoop the best race car driver's butt in braking distances. Well, I'll say for the majority of all new cars' ABS systems anyway. I'm not going to bet on some crazy car built in a 4th world country based on Yugo technology whose definition of ABS is just randomly dropping out brake control every few seconds. =p
Jeff7181
Lifer
- Aug 21, 2002
- 18,368
- 11
- 81
Holy crap... lots of mis-information here.
ABS does not reduce the distance it takes to stop the car, in fact, on dry pavement it will actually be longer than if you locked up all 4 tires and slid to a stop... but you'll have more control with ABS. The sole purpose of ABS is to allow you to maintain control of the vehicle. As soon as a tire locks up, you lose some control of the vehicle, as additional wheels lock up, you lose more and more control.
Another function of the ABS system isn't really related to stopping... you see it on Corvettes and cars like that... stability control. If you throw the car into a skid (or try to), the computer will figure out which way you're sliding, how fast you're going, etc etc... and pulse the appropriate brake to bring the car out of the skid.
Another more common function is traction control... but it's really only in a severe case. First the computer usually retards timing and reduces fuel flow to reduce power so you don't spin the tires at every stoplight. But if you mash the gas every time you leave a stoplight in snowy weather, just retarding the timing and reducing fuel flow won't help... so it pulses the brakes of the wheels that are spinning.
As far as not being able eto "beat ABS." You can fool it on rare occasions... if you can manage to lock up all 4 tires at the exact same time (however, that's a VERY rare circumstance), ABS will not see a difference in wheel speed, so it will not pulse any brakes, it will just assume you're stopped.
ABS does not reduce the distance it takes to stop the car, in fact, on dry pavement it will actually be longer than if you locked up all 4 tires and slid to a stop... but you'll have more control with ABS. The sole purpose of ABS is to allow you to maintain control of the vehicle. As soon as a tire locks up, you lose some control of the vehicle, as additional wheels lock up, you lose more and more control.
Another function of the ABS system isn't really related to stopping... you see it on Corvettes and cars like that... stability control. If you throw the car into a skid (or try to), the computer will figure out which way you're sliding, how fast you're going, etc etc... and pulse the appropriate brake to bring the car out of the skid.
Another more common function is traction control... but it's really only in a severe case. First the computer usually retards timing and reduces fuel flow to reduce power so you don't spin the tires at every stoplight. But if you mash the gas every time you leave a stoplight in snowy weather, just retarding the timing and reducing fuel flow won't help... so it pulses the brakes of the wheels that are spinning.
As far as not being able eto "beat ABS." You can fool it on rare occasions... if you can manage to lock up all 4 tires at the exact same time (however, that's a VERY rare circumstance), ABS will not see a difference in wheel speed, so it will not pulse any brakes, it will just assume you're stopped.
I guarantee you that ABS gives superior dry-pavement stopping distance. It ONLY kicks in when a loss in traction is detected, and you can't stop if you have NO TRACTION!!! That's what skidding is, your brakes lock up but you don't stop. The same thing happens on dry pavement as it does on snow! If your tires lose traction ABS pulses to regain traction to stop your vehicle.
If you don't believe me, here's the GOVERNMENT's take. I was trying to find the link to this shootout between non-ABS and ABS equipped cars some big car mag did one time(which showed that on dry pavement ABS was still king), but here the government says it too:
NHTSA report on ABS
Specifically I will quote the important part regarding dry pavement:
Now, although the government says it is only SLIGHTLY, note that this was 1988-1991!!! Since then, ABS has improved to the level where on dry pavement there is now a NOTICABLE AND SIGNIFICANT difference.
If even a 1988 system gave improved dry pavement times, you are INSANE to believe that you can do better locking your brakes on dry pavement. That's just bunk that some people believe, with absolutely no proof behind it. The government tested and proved this, and so did a reputable car magazine(dammit I wish I could find the URL). Since the magazine tested with later model cars, their results were actually quite significant so I'm gonna try to find the URL. But for now, you can see that even 1988-1991 ABS DID improve dry pavement times.
However, you also notice that gravel times were increased, and I will also say that snow braking distances are increased also with ABS. However, you're still far less likely to skid out in the snow regardless.
So there, I have pretty much come up with reputable evidence that dry pavement is improved by ABS, even if only slightly(but this is 1988-1991 ABS, which is not the same thing as 2004 ABS with EBD, etc.) Please stop spreading the misinformation that ABS increases brake time on dry pavement. The reason why it increases brake time in both snow and gravel have to do with the fact that with locked brakes snow and gravel will accumulate in front of the tire, causing this wall of snow or gravel to help stop the car. On dry pavement there's nothing that will cause that, and thus ABS improves brake distances just like it does in the rain, although less noticably only because your tire doesn't slip quite as much. However, if I recall correctly modern ABS systems actually give around 20ft or so shorter braking distances from 60MPH, but I'm gonna try to find the actual tests before I say anything more because that 20ft figure might be wrong, but it was SIGNIFICANT nonetheless.
Please don't call what others say misinformation without actually checking with a reputable source yourself first. I saw a lot of random google car sites claiming that ABS increases brake distances, but far as I can tell these are all car club sites, and not any reputable site which actually did a single freakin' test.
Also mentioned on this page:
More NHTSA mentions
Here I take what they mean by "most" to mean the ones that don't stink, and which aren't in old cars(since most cars aren't new cars, and the NHTSA can't just talk only about new cars) =p So again, I think my statement that pretty much all NEW ABS systems should be able to lower stopping distances on dry pavement. Yes maybe there were those three cars back in 1987 which took longer on dry pavement, but this isn't 1987.
Dammit I really wish I could find the link for the shootout =(
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 44
- 91
When the wheel stops turning before the car stops moving and the car slides on wheels that aren't spinning the brakes are locked. It happens when the brakes are applied too hard (usually in a panic stop) or when the road is very slick and the driver applies the brakes as though the road were dry. When brakes lock all control over the car is lost, you can't steer at all. If you have to ask about this you should NOT BE DRIVING, YOU ARE A DANGER TO OTHERS ON THE ROAD. Take a performance driving class or something and learn car control.
Alternately, brakes may be considered to be "locked" when they are frozen. This generally occurs with the parking brake, if the parking brake is not used often and then it is used, it can freeze and it will not release. If the car has four wheel discs then you're pretty much forced to re-build the rear calipers.
ZV
Alternately, brakes may be considered to be "locked" when they are frozen. This generally occurs with the parking brake, if the parking brake is not used often and then it is used, it can freeze and it will not release. If the car has four wheel discs then you're pretty much forced to re-build the rear calipers.
ZV
DougK62
Diamond Member
- Mar 28, 2001
- 8,035
- 6
- 81
LOL - this is hilarious. If ABS is so super then why are SOOOO many racecars without it? ABS is good for the average driver, but on dry pavement with someone that knows how to drive ABS SUCKS - it can dramatically increase stopping distances.
Give me an ABS-equipped car to drive at an autocross and the first thing I'm going to do is start yanking fuses. I get substantially better times without ABS.
Give me an ABS-equipped car to drive at an autocross and the first thing I'm going to do is start yanking fuses. I get substantially better times without ABS.
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 44
- 91
ABS DOUBLES stopping distance over full lockup on ice, and increases stopping distance by around 50% on gravel, sand, and snow as compared to full lockup. However, it allows control while stopping so the tradeoff in distance is generally acceptable in a road car.
ABS shows improvement on wet pavement as compared to full lockup (I think this is largely due to the fact that locked wheels hydroplane easier than spinning ones), but it's pretty much a dead heat on dry pavement.
Any good driver can out-brake ABS in normal circumstances in a straight-line stop. ABS trades braking distance for control, that's all there is to it, this tradeoff is acceptable and even desireable considering the talents of the average driver, but ABS does not keep the wheels on "imminent lock" which is where the best braking happens, it just oscillates between all and nothing.
ZV
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,514
- 44
- 91
In the order of your claims:
You're a damn idiot with no business on the road if you can't brake hard in ice/snow/rain and not spin out even without ABS. If you need ABS, you are not a copmetant driver, period.
It does not "maintain traction", it prevents total lockup. Traction is a fixed quantity determined by surface type, tire type, the weight of the vehicle, and weather conditions. ABS simply makes good use of the available traction to compensate for the fact that the average driver is a dumbass.
Pulsing the brakes is SUB-OPTIMAL. An ideal system would do what a good driver does, maintain a CONSTANT pressure that keeps the brakes NEAR BUT NOT PAST lockup. Once you have to pump the brakes, you've already fvcked up.
You have way too much faith in computer-based systems.
ZV
iamwiz82
Lifer
- Jan 10, 2001
- 30,772
- 13
- 81
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/Equipment/absbrakes.html
ABS will not always reduce stopping distance. Anyone who has ever used ABS in icy conditions will tell you that. ABS is to allow you to control the car, however. The main purpose is to be able to swerve around problems, not stop before them.
ABS will not always reduce stopping distance. Anyone who has ever used ABS in icy conditions will tell you that. ABS is to allow you to control the car, however. The main purpose is to be able to swerve around problems, not stop before them.
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