Amen to that. To add on to that, I'd even reccomend switching to whole grain bread, not just whole wheat. Also..they make whole wheat pastas. Diet Sodas are OK once and awhile, but still no nutritional value. I cringe everytime I see someone picking up a loaf or two of white bread anymore...
Amen to that. To add on to that, I'd even reccomend switching to whole grain bread, not just whole wheat. Also..they make whole wheat pastas. Diet Sodas are OK once and awhile, but still no nutritional value. I cringe everytime I see someone picking up a loaf or two of white bread anymore...
I guess I can jump into this brewing flame fest and try to fester it some more....or I could just offer my comments for whatever they are worth.
Some background:
I'm a 4th year medical student at UCLA (just to make this very clear: on my road to becoming an MD). As 4th years (and as 3rd years), we spend all of our time working in hospitals and clinics, seeing patients. I think that I have a good understanding as to what a doctor does and doesn't do.
Now, many of the comments made by Riprorin are correct, and many are not. Yes, some doctors might be bought out by drug companies. Some doctors might not listen to you when you ask them about alternative therapies. Some doctors might be rude, inconsiderate, a-holes. But, guess what, this applies to some people in general. This also implies that some alternative med practioners might also be bought out, as alternative medicine is a multi-billion dollar market.
I have no problem with telling patients to try alternative medicines...and have on many, many occasions. Many of the MD's that i've worked with also have no problem with this. However, we do caution people. The FDA regulates many of the therapies as nutritional supplements and not drugs. This means that there is NO consistancy between brands and within one brand regarding safety or quantity of drug delivered. Also, the drug delivery mechanisms are not the same (corrollary: most people don't realize that drugs have to be delivered properly; that's why generic drugs MAY NOT work the same as the name brand...PM me if you want to discuss this, and no, I'm not advocating name-brand drugs necessarily, and I know what you are thinking...this fool is already bought out...okay think that, but there is a science behind this). Anyway, everyone knows about ephedrine as a dietary supplement, "All natural, blah blah blah". So, these things are not safek, JUST like prescription drugs are not safe. They require proper training and licenscing to dispense properly. That's why we have docs and pharmacists who have gone to school for 8 years or more, done post-graduate training, and taken standardized exams.
The scary part of alternative medicine is that anybody, you, me, ANYBODY can become a practioner. Literally, I can start doing accupuncture TODAY if I wanted to. I'm "qualified" and I can get the equipment. This is not to say that any one accupuncturist is incompetent....rather this is to say that they are unregulated. And accupuncture is one of the things that actually works really well! What about all of those "supplement pushers" who sell tons of vitamins, megadoses whose effects are NOT studied? Like I said before, I love to prescribe alternative therapies, as long as they are not harmful. Additionally, even if they don't have any clinical benefit, they may offer a tremendous psychological benefit (ie placebo effect).
I think that if you have trouble with your doc accepting alternative meds, get another doc if you want. All that I have worked with are open to the idea....many in fact prescribe it to their patients.
Good luck.
MD.
Some background:
I'm a 4th year medical student at UCLA (just to make this very clear: on my road to becoming an MD). As 4th years (and as 3rd years), we spend all of our time working in hospitals and clinics, seeing patients. I think that I have a good understanding as to what a doctor does and doesn't do.
Now, many of the comments made by Riprorin are correct, and many are not. Yes, some doctors might be bought out by drug companies. Some doctors might not listen to you when you ask them about alternative therapies. Some doctors might be rude, inconsiderate, a-holes. But, guess what, this applies to some people in general. This also implies that some alternative med practioners might also be bought out, as alternative medicine is a multi-billion dollar market.
I have no problem with telling patients to try alternative medicines...and have on many, many occasions. Many of the MD's that i've worked with also have no problem with this. However, we do caution people. The FDA regulates many of the therapies as nutritional supplements and not drugs. This means that there is NO consistancy between brands and within one brand regarding safety or quantity of drug delivered. Also, the drug delivery mechanisms are not the same (corrollary: most people don't realize that drugs have to be delivered properly; that's why generic drugs MAY NOT work the same as the name brand...PM me if you want to discuss this, and no, I'm not advocating name-brand drugs necessarily, and I know what you are thinking...this fool is already bought out...okay think that, but there is a science behind this). Anyway, everyone knows about ephedrine as a dietary supplement, "All natural, blah blah blah". So, these things are not safek, JUST like prescription drugs are not safe. They require proper training and licenscing to dispense properly. That's why we have docs and pharmacists who have gone to school for 8 years or more, done post-graduate training, and taken standardized exams.
The scary part of alternative medicine is that anybody, you, me, ANYBODY can become a practioner. Literally, I can start doing accupuncture TODAY if I wanted to. I'm "qualified" and I can get the equipment. This is not to say that any one accupuncturist is incompetent....rather this is to say that they are unregulated. And accupuncture is one of the things that actually works really well! What about all of those "supplement pushers" who sell tons of vitamins, megadoses whose effects are NOT studied? Like I said before, I love to prescribe alternative therapies, as long as they are not harmful. Additionally, even if they don't have any clinical benefit, they may offer a tremendous psychological benefit (ie placebo effect).
I think that if you have trouble with your doc accepting alternative meds, get another doc if you want. All that I have worked with are open to the idea....many in fact prescribe it to their patients.
Good luck.
MD.
Medicines work much differently than nutrients though. Medicines either inhibit, or excite , or block totally the production of certain chemicals naturally occuring in the body. With this said, you can become immune to medicines, which will mean your dosage will likely increase over time, costing you more $$$ in the long run. With targeted nutrition, you replenish and replace naturally occuring substances and nutrients within your body. There are generally no side-effects related to targeted nutrition, and the cost is much much lower, and IT WORKS! I will take the latter anytime.
True, but, let's take Lipitor for example. Atorvastatin, like all of the other "statin" drugs inhibits HMG-CoA reductase, the first step in the pathway to cholesterol synthesis. Sure, it inhibits that drug, but let's say that your body produces too much cholesterol? You're dietary intake is zero (because you are a vegan), and you still produce too much. Then, no matter how much exercise you do, your cholesterol is going to be up. You gotta do something or you are going to croak.
Now, of course, there is no replacement for a healthy diet and lots of cardiovascular exercise. People in the past did not have these problems (as has already been mentioned), they worked all day and burned like 10,000 kilocalories (Calories) per day.
Supplements are good in this case, but not having side-effects is an overgeneralization. Just because we don't know if it has side-effects doesn't mean it doesn't. Also, for example, Niacin, which is nicotinic acid is a B-vitamin, and helps reduce cholesterol, and is the best at increasing HDL. However, it does have a lot of side-effects that usually make people QUIT taking the drug. WTF?!?!? Somebody would quit a vitamin? Hey, wait, I thought it was all natural no side-effects? So, please don't think that nothing has side-effects...everything does.
MD.
Reference for Niacin (drug name: Niacor)
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/niacor.htm
Side-effects and Drug Interactions:
Cardiovascular: Atrial fibrillation and other cardiac arrhythmias; orthostasis; hypotension.
Gastrointestinal: Dyspepsia; vomiting; diarrhea; peptic ulceration; jaundice; abnormal liver function tests.
Skin: Mild to severe cutaneous flushing; pruritus; hyperpigmentation; acanthosis nigricans; dry skin.
Metabolic: Decreased glucose-tolerance; hyperuricemia; gout.
Eye: Toxic amblyopia; cystoid macular edema.
Nervous System / Psychiatric: Headache.
DRUG INTERACTIONS
HMG-CoA Reductase Inhibitors: See WARNINGS, Skeletal Muscle.
Antihypertensive Therapy: Nicotinic acid may potentiate the effects of ganglionic blocking agents and vasoactive drugs resulting in postural hypotension.
Aspirin: Concomitant aspirin may decrease the metabolic clearance of nicotinic acid. The clinical relevance of this finding is unclear.
Other: Concomitant alcohol or hot drinks may increase the side effects of flushing and pruritus and should be avoided at the time of drug ingestion.
there are so few people that actually need nutrients in pill form... eat what you know you're supposed to eat and you will be fine. you don't need b12 supplements.
Mainly why I said "generally." In "general" medicine has more negative side effects than their nutrional counterparts. I also want to emphasize that medicine has its place, and for many many people, medicine is the only thing that works, such as in your example. I don't think ANYONE should discount modern medicine OR targeted nutrition.
My understanding is that none of the first eighty major studies of cholesterol lowering drugs demonstrated any significant extension of life span among patients using them. For Lovastatin, a recent study showed that while it lowers the risk of heart attack, those who did have heart attack while taking the drug were three times more likely to die.
In addition to blocking the production of cholesterol, the statins also block the production of CoQ10, an important anti-oxidant.
Here's one reason I distrust drug companies:
Bristol Meyer Squibb
Actually, the only thing that increased life span is calorie restriction. I'll look up the reference for you; though I'm sure you'll agree with it. Though that still doesn't rule out statins as important, heart-attack reducing drugs.
MD.
MD, it seems reasonable that lowering caloric intake increases life span.
In addition to a healthful diet and excercise, I'm taking a multivitamin (Men's One-a-Day), fish oil (2 high potency capsules), CoQ10 (50 mg), vitamin C (1000 mg) vitamin E (400 IU), Folic Acid (3000 mg), Vitamin B complex (50 mg) and vitamin B12 (200 mcg). From my research, these doses won't hurt me and there's research that they may help.
In only 6 week, I cut my triglycerides almost 3x (216 -> 76), increased my HDL almost 2x (46 ->85), and reduced my LDL by about 9% (156 ->143) any my doctor still wants me to take Lovistatin!
I could be completely wrong and the statins could be the best thing going. I'm skeptical though.
In addition to a healthful diet and excercise, I'm taking a multivitamin (Men's One-a-Day), fish oil (2 high potency capsules), CoQ10 (50 mg), vitamin C (1000 mg) vitamin E (400 IU), Folic Acid (3000 mg), Vitamin B complex (50 mg) and vitamin B12 (200 mcg). From my research, these doses won't hurt me and there's research that they may help.
In only 6 week, I cut my triglycerides almost 3x (216 -> 76), increased my HDL almost 2x (46 ->85), and reduced my LDL by about 9% (156 ->143) any my doctor still wants me to take Lovistatin!
I could be completely wrong and the statins could be the best thing going. I'm skeptical though.
The Sauce
Diamond Member
- Oct 31, 1999
- 4,741
- 34
- 91
Since you are so hot on the antioxidants, and are quick to comment on statins' inability to prolong life (which I am pretty sure is incorrect) it may interest you to know that there has been only one major study regarding anti-oxidants in this regard. I was a Scandinavian study, prospective, randomized involving approximately 10,000 adult men who were randomized to either receive antioxidant therapy or no anti-oxidant therapy. The conclusion after 4-5 years was that there was a higher incidence of cancer (particularly lung cancer) in the group that was randomized to receive the anti-oxidants and an overall higher mortality for that group as well.
I'm surprised that you don't see the benefits of anti-oxidants for heart health.
Vitamin C and Vitamin E slow/prevent LDL oxidation.
Folic acid lowers homocysteine.
CoQ10 prevents oxidation of LDL. It's particularly effective because it migtrates directly to the heart.
Fish oils help keep blood platelets from clumping, thereby preventing the formation of clots.
Vitamin C and Vitamin E slow/prevent LDL oxidation.
Folic acid lowers homocysteine.
CoQ10 prevents oxidation of LDL. It's particularly effective because it migtrates directly to the heart.
Fish oils help keep blood platelets from clumping, thereby preventing the formation of clots.
It would be neat if there was someone on ATOT who is "in the know" about vitamins/nutrional supplements. I have quite a few questions. Calling any experts?
I don't think that you're likely to find any experts here.
Doctors appear to be trained only in the pharmaceutical approach.
Pharmaceuticals obviously have their place, but if you question the mainstream medical view that drugs are the solution for most every problem, a lot of them will tell you're an ignorant kook.
Doctors appear to be trained only in the pharmaceutical approach.
Pharmaceuticals obviously have their place, but if you question the mainstream medical view that drugs are the solution for most every problem, a lot of them will tell you're an ignorant kook.
Do you know anything about pantethine? I've read that at least 8 studies agree that is lowers triglycerides, LDL and total cholesterol while increasing HDL.
The Sauce
Diamond Member
- Oct 31, 1999
- 4,741
- 34
- 91
Right, you have adequately demonstrated that you are competent at parroting the "alternative" party line. However, there is no data to support any of it. In medicine we act based on scientific evidence and data, not the arguments of talk show personalities and popular press publications that you seem to hold as gospel. On the contrary, as I have outlined, the only large scale, scientific studies investigating antioxidants (the CARET trial, the HOPE trial and the GISSI prevention study to name a few) have shown that they are not only of no benefit, but may actually cause harm. If you can provide data to the contrary, please do. Physicians used to prescribe Vit. C, Vit A and Vit E for cardiac patients (I did up until 2 years ago) and have stopped as a result of the excellent data showing no benefit. I have provided references below.
References:
Omenn GS, Goodman GE, Thornquist MD, Balmes J, Cullen MR, Glass A, Keogh JP, Meyskens FL, Valanis B, Williams JH, Barnhart S, Hammar S. Effects of a combination of beta carotene and vitamin A on lung cancer and cardiovascular disease. N Engl J Med 1996;334:1150-1155.
Hennekens CH, Buring JE, Manson JE, Stampfer M, Rosner B, Cook NR, Belanger C, LaMotte F, Gaziano JM, Ridker PM, Willett W, Peto R. Lack of effect of long-term supplementation with beta carotene on the incidence of malignant neoplasms and cardiovascular disease. N Engl J Med 1996;334:1145-1149.
Alpha-Tocopherol Beta Carotene Cancer Prevention Study Group. The effect of vitamin E and beta carotene on the incidence of lung cancer and other cancers in male smokers. N Engl J Med 1994;330:1029-1035.
Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation Study Investigators. Vitamin E supplementation and cardiovascular events in high-risk patients. N Engl J Med 2000;342:154-160.
GISSI-Prevenzione Investigators. Dietary supplementation with n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids and vitamin E after myocardial infarction: results of the GISSI-Prevenzione trial. Lancet 1999;354:447-455.
PS - by "data" I mean prospective, randomized, double-blinded, placebo controlled, adequately powered studies published in peer-reviewed journals (the standard of scientific evidence) - not editorials from "Alternative Living Monthly," or testimonials from some guru's autobiography/novella.
True, I'm not a medical researcher nor a medical expert and I have been relying on literature published in the popular press.
I follow sources that I believe are credible and try to apply common sense.
I'll bet if I look hard enought I can find studies to contradict your studies. And, the recommendations from the medical community can and do change. So what's the point?
Before I take a pharmaceutical I want to try alternative treatments. What's wrong with that? I'm taking vitamins/supplements in doses that are unlikely to hurt me and based on research that I've seen cited, may actually help.
If they don't, I always have the option of taking traditional drugs.
I follow sources that I believe are credible and try to apply common sense.
I'll bet if I look hard enought I can find studies to contradict your studies. And, the recommendations from the medical community can and do change. So what's the point?
Before I take a pharmaceutical I want to try alternative treatments. What's wrong with that? I'm taking vitamins/supplements in doses that are unlikely to hurt me and based on research that I've seen cited, may actually help.
If they don't, I always have the option of taking traditional drugs.
apoppin
Lifer
They're still really pretty rare. However, I believe there are some "alternate" databases that are searchable. I'd try "Prevention" magazine as it now has a lot of MDs that write articles there.
All of you that have "faith" in the medical establishment are in for a big surprise as you age.
Also, I'm not minimizing advances in medicine.
My grandfather received his BS from St. Francis College, his medical degree from Columbia University, and did his residency at Johns Hopkins in the early 1900's.
According to my father, he dipped Italian bread (he was an Italian immigrant who came to the US with his mother when he was 11) in boiled milk and taped it over the wound. For high blood pressure, he prescribed a small glass of red wine and a raw egg.
I don't know how accurate this information is but it's what my father recalled.
My grandfather received his BS from St. Francis College, his medical degree from Columbia University, and did his residency at Johns Hopkins in the early 1900's.
According to my father, he dipped Italian bread (he was an Italian immigrant who came to the US with his mother when he was 11) in boiled milk and taped it over the wound. For high blood pressure, he prescribed a small glass of red wine and a raw egg.
I don't know how accurate this information is but it's what my father recalled.
The Sauce
Diamond Member
- Oct 31, 1999
- 4,741
- 34
- 91
I agree there is most likely no harm, except to your wallet and perhaps your long term health if you forego proven therapies for unproven ones. However, what I take exception to is your damnation of the medical community for not supporting therapies which have been proven to have no benefit.
You will not find the studies. And what is the point? I don't know...what's the point of science at all...why study anything? Why not just act based on what seems sensible and forget all about scientific inquiry? If you do not feel that anything is worth studying then I suppose that explains your entire philosophy on the matter. I suppose there is no point in making things work better, making new discoveries, finding out certain things are bad or good...it's just all going to change anyway, right? I can just retire now...whew, what a relief.
apoppin
Lifer
Prevention,com
Make sure to check out their links and health resources.
I have much more information on alternative practicioners. Unfortunately they are in my "archives" on CD. If you are interested, Riprorin , PM me and I'll try to find them for you.
Bsically, I have an MD as my primary DIAGNOSTICIAN - after I find out "what's wrong" - I then visit my Acupuncturist/TCM practicioner or Chiropractor (I find them much LESS useful since I discovered acupuncture) or Homeopathic physician.
A LAST RESORT for me is the MD's treatment.
I really don't care if any of you prefer Western medicine. My method is perfect for me.
Make sure to check out their links and health resources.
I have much more information on alternative practicioners. Unfortunately they are in my "archives" on CD. If you are interested, Riprorin , PM me and I'll try to find them for you.
Bsically, I have an MD as my primary DIAGNOSTICIAN - after I find out "what's wrong" - I then visit my Acupuncturist/TCM practicioner or Chiropractor (I find them much LESS useful since I discovered acupuncture) or Homeopathic physician.
A LAST RESORT for me is the MD's treatment.
I really don't care if any of you prefer Western medicine. My method is perfect for me.
The Sauce
Diamond Member
- Oct 31, 1999
- 4,741
- 34
- 91
Originally posted by: apoppin
Prevention,com
Make sure to check out their links and health resources.
I have much more information on alternative practicioners. Unfortunately they are in my "archives" on CD. If you are interested, Riprorin , PM me and I'll try to find them for you.
Bsically, I have an MD as my primary DIAGNOSTICIAN - after I find out "what's wrong" - I then visit my Acupuncturist/TCM practicioner or Chiropractor (I find them much LESS useful since I discovered acupuncture) or Homeopathic physician.
A LAST RESORT for me is the MD's treatment.
I really don't care if any of you prefer Western medicine. My method is perfect for me.
It is pure irony and/or hipocracy that you guys accuse MD's of being in the pockets of drug companies, and yet get all of your information from web sites that are peddling their own products at exorbitant prices. This was just priceless - "Look for the big red "A" - that means it's Atkins certified." Yup, no alterior motive there.
Why do you get the idea that I minimize medical resarch?
The article I gave you on IHN had 40 journal references. Many of the references appeared to be from reputable medical journals.
Yet, you know nothing about IHN becuase the research finding haven't hit the mainstream medical press.
Maybe your reading is just too limited and/or you are biased by your medical training which largely ignores value nutrients and emphasizes pharmaceuticals.
The article I gave you on IHN had 40 journal references. Many of the references appeared to be from reputable medical journals.
Yet, you know nothing about IHN becuase the research finding haven't hit the mainstream medical press.
Maybe your reading is just too limited and/or you are biased by your medical training which largely ignores value nutrients and emphasizes pharmaceuticals.
The Sauce
Diamond Member
- Oct 31, 1999
- 4,741
- 34
- 91
Oh btw, here's the references about statin therapy that you erroneously cited earlier as having no mortality benefit:
The benefit of lipid-lowering therapy on preventing coronary artery disease (CAD) was not clearly established until the publication of major trials of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA) reductase inhibitor (statin) therapy that had morbidity and mortality as primary endpoints. The Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study (4S), published in 1994, may well be the most important clinical trial of the century, because it demonstrated that lipid-lowering statin therapy reduced total mortality in patients with CAD (history of myocardial infarction [MI] and/or angina) and severely elevated cholesterol. The Long-Term Intervention with Pravastatin in Ischaemic Disease trial (LIPID) and the Cholesterol and Recurrent Events trial (CARE) studied CAD patients with moderately elevated and average cholesterol levels, respectively. Patients without previous MI were studied in the West of Scotland Coronary Prevention Study (WOSCOPS), which examined patients with severe hypercholesterolemia, and the Air Force/Texas Coronary Prevention Study (AFCAPS/TexCAPS), which studied patients with average cholesterol. Together these 5 studies enrolled 30,000 patients; each study showed that lipid lowering with a statin prevents clinical events, and with each study, the pool of patients proven to benefit was expanded. These trials also demonstrated the safety of statin therapy; in the 15,000 patients randomized to statins, there were no cases of serious liver complications and only one serious muscle complication that resolved with discontinuation of therapy.
The benefit of lipid-lowering therapy on preventing coronary artery disease (CAD) was not clearly established until the publication of major trials of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA) reductase inhibitor (statin) therapy that had morbidity and mortality as primary endpoints. The Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study (4S), published in 1994, may well be the most important clinical trial of the century, because it demonstrated that lipid-lowering statin therapy reduced total mortality in patients with CAD (history of myocardial infarction [MI] and/or angina) and severely elevated cholesterol. The Long-Term Intervention with Pravastatin in Ischaemic Disease trial (LIPID) and the Cholesterol and Recurrent Events trial (CARE) studied CAD patients with moderately elevated and average cholesterol levels, respectively. Patients without previous MI were studied in the West of Scotland Coronary Prevention Study (WOSCOPS), which examined patients with severe hypercholesterolemia, and the Air Force/Texas Coronary Prevention Study (AFCAPS/TexCAPS), which studied patients with average cholesterol. Together these 5 studies enrolled 30,000 patients; each study showed that lipid lowering with a statin prevents clinical events, and with each study, the pool of patients proven to benefit was expanded. These trials also demonstrated the safety of statin therapy; in the 15,000 patients randomized to statins, there were no cases of serious liver complications and only one serious muscle complication that resolved with discontinuation of therapy.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter