How do we fix education?

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Feb 3, 2001
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Well I don't agree with your idea about vouchers allowing schools to escape from standards; quite the contrary, standards would be more strictly enforced by all schools because they would *have* to provide better results in order to compete. Competition helps *everyone* and the Public School Monopoly, much like the Postal Service Monopoly, is a debacle.

Nevertheless we agree I think on much of the rest. We've got no choice but to start small and work continuously to higher standards and better parent involvement over the next generation or two. Like so many of our other problems, there is no magic bullet.


Jason
 

EagleKeeper

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Originally posted by: Dissipate

Why would they need science and foreign language? If this won't be needed in their trade then they don't need to take it.

Understanding of science will generate a basic understanding on how the physical world interacts and the results of it.
Simplistic examples - may seem like common sense but I have seen real world examples of failures due to lack of this type of knowledge.

Chemistry - Learn what acids can do - affects welders, pool builders, most metal related manufacturing, auto repair
General Science - Meterology - moisture content, weather patterns as it affects construction & road work
Physics - Stress - building materials, equipment design & manufacturing

Science can also dovetail with math.

Foriegn Language - Learning to use a foriegn language that is common within the area that you are in can be a great benifit in advancement and communicating with others. Within the SW US and Florida there is a great influence of Spanish speaking workers (right or wrong - different thread).
To work with them effectively it would be a great benift to communicate with them in their language if they are unable/unwilling to communicate with you.

If the trade that you work in does a lot of business overseas, learning another language can be benifical. You may not need to become fluent, but a basic understanding can help and potentially generate a leg up for advancement.

 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Dissipate

Why would they need science and foreign language? If this won't be needed in their trade then they don't need to take it.

Understanding of science will generate a basic understanding on how the physical world interacts and the results of it.
Simplistic examples - may seem like common sense but I have seen real world examples of failures due to lack of this type of knowledge.

Chemistry - Learn what acids can do - affects welders, pool builders, most metal related manufacturing, auto repair
General Science - Meterology - moisture content, weather patterns as it affects construction & road work
Physics - Stress - building materials, equipment design & manufacturing

Science can also dovetail with math.

Foriegn Language - Learning to use a foriegn language that is common within the area that you are in can be a great benifit in advancement and communicating with others. Within the SW US and Florida there is a great influence of Spanish speaking workers (right or wrong - different thread).
To work with them effectively it would be a great benift to communicate with them in their language if they are unable/unwilling to communicate with you.

If the trade that you work in does a lot of business overseas, learning another language can be benifical. You may not need to become fluent, but a basic understanding can help and potentially generate a leg up for advancement.

Science is great and so is foreign language but with all due respect these courses should not be required. This is just going back to the general education curriculim which has been a utter failure.

A lot of subjects benefit those who have learned them but which subjects the students want to learn should be their decision. The exception being math and English because these subjects lay the foundation for every other subject, academic pursuit and workplace success.
 
May 16, 2000
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Copy and paste from an earlier Fark discussion. It was after an article about grading based on results instead of attendance or attitude.



Before any other question is answered, we have to address the core concept:

Is public school an institute of learning and education, or is it a preparation ground for social integration and job function?

No matter how much we would like it to be, public schools as currently implemented cant be both. The American public school system was a major departure from all previous views of schools. It was an attempt to bring all citizens up to a basic level of reason and understanding and it was thought that that alone would improve the society and nation of America. And they were right, for a while.

Before America kids were taught the skills necessary to survive, and were trained in whatever field they would be employed in. For those who would serve in leadership or educated roles (such as Priest, Engineer, etc) there was a different path; that of private tutelage leading to University study. Those attending Universities were not trained in one field, they were completely EDUCATED; multiple languages, history, art, science, math, literature, philosophy, etc. The idea behind this at the time was that the upper classes were inherently better than others and were the only ones genetically able to truly become enlightened, as it was referred to.

So along comes America and says, No. All people are capable and deserving of basic literacy and understanding of the world around them. And for those that are capable and choose to go further, the University will still exist for that level of training. Until the industrial revolution, that is. Now we were back to a class based system, where those in charge preferred to have less educated, but dedicated workers under them. They backed a new form of education, the College. A college was a school of one particular skill or type of learning, such as a College of Engineering. By focusing students on one specific type of learning to excel in, they could be utilized for their abilities without providing them the broad education that would result in them knowing enough to rebel against their employers. You have to remember that at this time school was not mandatory, generally didnt progress beyond 6th grade, and was only in session for about 1/2 of the year (we were still mainly an agro-economy and had no functional service industry to see to our daily needs).

That is the foundation of our education system, it is NOT as was originally envisioned. It was SUPPOSED to be public learning and broad education, instead it became a tool of class division and economic resource. In education, as in most facets of life, we surrendered democracy to capitalism. What Im saying is, Our current system is a mongrel hybrid of two entirely different school systems and should be abolished and recreated as on or the other, or allow the creation of both types.

I believe strongly in providing the option for both and letting each individual choose their path. For me personally, I would go the academic route, because its what Im best at, and because I believe broad education in art, philosophy, etc are what provide the correct advancement of a society, they give it direction and limits and reasons. Meanwhile those who feel the other way are free to attend social/career learning centers and become the actual movers and doers of our nation, providing the means to reach the academic ends.

People are talking about effort and attendance and other factors, which have nothing to do with education, they have to do with social acclimation and career possibilities. By splitting schools into two categories we would be able to focus on the parts that matter to each school. Career schools would want to see effort, dedication, self-discipline, attendance and other job related functions, while an academic institution could be based solely on learning, creativity, exhaustive testing, etc.

To that end, there are some fundamental flaws with the implementation of either a results based or subjective relativity grading scale.

Some people dont do well on tests, but can perform the specific operation of the functions tested without trouble. Test anxiety, learning disabilities, so called bad daysthese are all possible factors in reducing a bright persons test scores. Furthermore what type of test plays a significant role, as some children learn visually, others audibly, others through example and experience, etc. Provided that all learning options are utilized in the coursework, how the test is structured and presented would still be a key factor in determining the outcome of the test.

This also brings up a point about the use of luck in testing. Multiple choice tests are great for quizzing and instruction, but they fail utterly to perform the functions of a true test, which is seeing what the student has learned. Fill in the blank, oral review, essay question and project oriented tests are far more useful once classroom learning of a subject is completed.

This severe individualization is the largest single factor opposing public education today. Just understanding the different styles of learning presented by introverts versus extraverts is a major stride in truly acceptable global education. I believe the only possible way to achieve this is through exhaustive training of all educators in psychology, education, personality type theory, etc. Then perform complete analysis of all students, with ongoing update testing, in order to establish a core understanding of that childs learning style and capabilities, and then teach him/her accordingly.

This raises another issue; that of ability/intelligence. There is no doubt that addressing these factors is vital in education, and yet they remained largely unaddressed in our current system. A child with an exceptional broad IQ (say above 150 standard) will learn differently than the other 9 in his class with a 90-120 IQ. Even more importantly, by reviewing the theories of multiple intelligences one who is entirely geared towards spatial relations and art can not be expected to achieve the same scores in math and chemistry. And intelligence itself has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH GRADES. A student who gets As isnt necessarily smart by todays system, while one who flunks may actually be a genius or above. Separating these two factors, intellect and grades/achievement, is essential before real progress can be made in education.

Another major factor in education is drive. Rather it's provided by self-discipline or through pressure by external forces (ie family) a student is only going to achieve to the level he/she chooses, regardless of the opportunities presented to them. Therefore its vital to establish an open and working system, and then to understand and accept someone who doesnt necessarily progress very far within it, regardless of ability.

To achieve this system would take a lot of work, and would probably require federal oversight. However, upon achievement of the working system the ED should be mostly dismantled at the federal level, leaving no more than a voluntary board of advisors drawn not from politicians but from educators. Let the states develop their own independent EDs that stay within the framework that was laid down, after all, this is supposed to be a republic. Costs have to be cut, and that means administration. Cuts should always happen at the top first, not the bottom.

Ive refrained from covering anything too deeply here, its a public board not my thesis (which will soon be available on my website btw). There is ample documentation and support to back what I say, all you have to do is research it and think, which I know isnt necessarily easy given our education system for the last 50 years. :cool: Even so, I have a lot of experience in this area. Youre talking to someone who went to high school for five years, had a .012 cumulative GPA, and scored 1410 on the SATs at 16 having never even taken a course in geometry or more than basic algebra. With that in mind, Ive also belonged to a couple intellectual societies (ie Mensa-ish) and attended 4 universities in the US. Anyone who thinks we have a workable system need only read this last paragraph to realize something somewhere is terribly wrong.
 

burnedout

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Oct 12, 1999
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: burnedout

And what would many of the minorities/lower class do if HS sports were curtailed? Do you know how many potential student-athletes from the lower class rely upon this opportunity to showcase their skills in front of college scouts? Everybody on this board loves to snivel and blindly grope around in the dark about how rough the lower class has it. Now you wanna screw them even more.

No, don't get me started on this subject. I can argue it all day.

Nothing wrong with letting the many potential student-athletes getting to showcase their skills. Problem is that the emphisis needs to be on the word
student. A child that is not academicly prepared will either be a atheletic tool to be thrown away in college (assuming that he can make it) or be no better than what he is now.

Very few sports athletes from HS make it past bench warming in college. Even less make it to the pros and excel.
I would suspect that no more than 10% of varsity players make it onto the college team. Big fish in small pond syndrome.
What percentage of college players are actually graduating?
These kids need to learn to make it in the world using their heads first. That way they have something to fall back on.

Let them play competive sports for the school if they have grades that are equal to the rest of the student body.
They should not be rewarded for sub-par performance. :disgust:
What type of message does that teach them on how the real world operates?
If the state/district HS athletic governing body is worth a darn then the student-athletes must maintain a certain GPA to compete.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

I think you are missing the point. Sports are great- I think it's a great thing for those who are involved, but I also don't think it should be the focus of our educational system. Create community based sports - have school interaction with it - sure, but sports needs to be separated from education. IMO;)
School is for school - sports should not take the place of school.

The racial/minority issue doesn't play - it affects ALL schools.;)

CkG
Who says sports ARE the focus of our educational system? The newspapers or local TV stations when they print up box scores or perhaps broadcast highlight film on TV? Institutional participation, pride, espirit de corps and tradition are an integral part of education.

 

FrodoB

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Apr 5, 2001
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You can throw as much money as you want at the problem and it won't fix it. It boils down to this... many parents are not involved in their children's lives. The woman has beein out of the house for 20+ years and there is no guiding force at home to keep their children focused on their school work during these times of tv, the internet and cellphones. The old reality of parental responsibility is gone. My fiance is a 1st grade teacher. I hear all the horror stories. It's sad, and if we don't watch it we'll become a 3rd world country because of poor parenting and a pathetic education system that does not prepare kids for the real world.
 

Dissipate

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Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: FrodoB
You can throw as much money as you want at the problem and it won't fix it. It boils down to this... many parents are not involved in their children's lives. The woman has beein out of the house for 20+ years and there is no guiding force at home to keep their children focused on their school work during these times of tv, the internet and cellphones. The old reality of parental responsibility is gone. My fiance is a 1st grade teacher. I hear all the horror stories. It's sad, and if we don't watch it we'll become a 3rd world country because of poor parenting and a pathetic education system that does not prepare kids for the real world.

Yeah, money is not the answer to this solution. More money will help but ONLY after the entire curriculim is completely reformed. Teachers are the main group that claim that its about money but this is because they want to increase their paychecks. There are a lot of teachers out there that mean well and heaven knows maybe they should be paid more for their work but the problem is that no matter how good the teachers are if the expectations of the school are low and the curriculim is a joke the schools will basically be daycare centers (which is what they are now actually).

 

KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: FrodoB
You can throw as much money as you want at the problem and it won't fix it. It boils down to this... many parents are not involved in their children's lives. The woman has beein out of the house for 20+ years and there is no guiding force at home to keep their children focused on their school work during these times of tv, the internet and cellphones. The old reality of parental responsibility is gone. My fiance is a 1st grade teacher. I hear all the horror stories. It's sad, and if we don't watch it we'll become a 3rd world country because of poor parenting and a pathetic education system that does not prepare kids for the real world.

Yeah, money is not the answer to this solution. More money will help but ONLY after the entire curriculim is completely reformed. Teachers are the main group that claim that its about money but this is because they want to increase their paychecks. There are a lot of teachers out there that mean well and heaven knows maybe they should be paid more for their work but the problem is that no matter how good the teachers are if the expectations of the school are low and the curriculim is a joke the schools will basically be daycare centers (which is what they are now actually).

Of course the curriculim is a joke because if they taught anything that with substance most would fail. It all points back to the early grades, if they don't learn early then its a snowball effect. So if the parents aren't helping out at home, the child will fall behind. Kid should not be able to pass to the next grade unless they could do the the tasks taught. Like third graders should not pass if they don't know their multipication tables, or if they can't read on a third grade level. There needs to be checks and balances, and no deviating from it. Problem teachers have is when they got 30 kids and they have to spend 90% of their time working with 20% of the kids because they don't know the basics.

KK
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Report came out this morning. University of Georgia has highest graduation rate of it's Athletes at 67% while Texas has lowest at 16%.
Doesn't surprise me in the least. I hate the Longhorns. My two favorite college teams are UK and whoever plays against UTexas.

Besides, the graduation rate for high school athletes who want a college athletic scholarship is usually around 100%.
 

FrodoB

Senior member
Apr 5, 2001
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Originally posted by: KK
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: FrodoB
You can throw as much money as you want at the problem and it won't fix it. It boils down to this... many parents are not involved in their children's lives. The woman has beein out of the house for 20+ years and there is no guiding force at home to keep their children focused on their school work during these times of tv, the internet and cellphones. The old reality of parental responsibility is gone. My fiance is a 1st grade teacher. I hear all the horror stories. It's sad, and if we don't watch it we'll become a 3rd world country because of poor parenting and a pathetic education system that does not prepare kids for the real world.

Yeah, money is not the answer to this solution. More money will help but ONLY after the entire curriculim is completely reformed. Teachers are the main group that claim that its about money but this is because they want to increase their paychecks. There are a lot of teachers out there that mean well and heaven knows maybe they should be paid more for their work but the problem is that no matter how good the teachers are if the expectations of the school are low and the curriculim is a joke the schools will basically be daycare centers (which is what they are now actually).

Of course the curriculim is a joke because if they taught anything that with substance most would fail. It all points back to the early grades, if they don't learn early then its a snowball effect. So if the parents aren't helping out at home, the child will fall behind. Kid should not be able to pass to the next grade unless they could do the the tasks taught. Like third graders should not pass if they don't know their multipication tables, or if they can't read on a third grade level. There needs to be checks and balances, and no deviating from it. Problem teachers have is when they got 30 kids and they have to spend 90% of their time working with 20% of the kids because they don't know the basics.

KK


Your last statement is absolutely correct. My fiance has two students that have sub 80 IQs. They are barely verbal. The school is so concerned about lawsuits that they will not send these two to a different type of class. So my fiance spends a lot of her time babysitting these two students at the expense of the others in a class of 26 first graders. That's the's theme in America now... the good of the few at the expense of the majority.
 

EagleKeeper

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Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Report came out this morning. University of Georgia has highest graduation rate of it's Athletes at 67% while Texas has lowest at 16%.

But why is the rate at 67%?
If they enroll at college, they are expected to learn and implicitly graduate.
Otherwise, why are they going to college? :confused: Sports? Why should the colleges be a training bround for athletes at the public expense.
If the professional sports want somebody without an education, let them place the person into a minor leage training camp to season them up.

If a person is playing in a sport and can not make the academic grade, they need to be cut/benched.
If they exit school, and were there on any type of scholarship, they should be required to repay the cost of their education.
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Report came out this morning. University of Georgia has highest graduation rate of it's Athletes at 67% while Texas has lowest at 16%.

But why is the rate at 67%?
If they enroll at college, they are expected to learn and implicitly graduate.
Otherwise, why are they going to college? :confused: Sports? Why should the colleges be a training bround for athletes at the public expense.
If the professional sports want somebody without an education, let them place the person into a minor leage training camp to season them up.

If a person is playing in a sport and can not make the academic grade, they need to be cut/benched.
If they exit school, and were there on any type of scholarship, they should be required to repay the cost of their education.

Any school that implemented that would have a difficult time recruiting Players.
 

EagleKeeper

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Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Report came out this morning. University of Georgia has highest graduation rate of it's Athletes at 67% while Texas has lowest at 16%.

But why is the rate at 67%?
If they enroll at college, they are expected to learn and implicitly graduate.
Otherwise, why are they going to college? :confused: Sports? Why should the colleges be a training bround for athletes at the public expense.
If the professional sports want somebody without an education, let them place the person into a minor leage training camp to season them up.

If a person is playing in a sport and can not make the academic grade, they need to be cut/benched.
If they exit school, and were there on any type of scholarship, they should be required to repay the cost of their education.

Any school that implemented that would have a difficult time recruiting Players.

Agreed - but what is the intention of higher education which is payed for by the taxpayer.

 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Report came out this morning. University of Georgia has highest graduation rate of it's Athletes at 67% while Texas has lowest at 16%.

But why is the rate at 67%?
If they enroll at college, they are expected to learn and implicitly graduate.
Otherwise, why are they going to college? :confused: Sports? Why should the colleges be a training bround for athletes at the public expense.
If the professional sports want somebody without an education, let them place the person into a minor leage training camp to season them up.

If a person is playing in a sport and can not make the academic grade, they need to be cut/benched.
If they exit school, and were there on any type of scholarship, they should be required to repay the cost of their education.
I authored a paper on this very subject last semester for a grad class. Briefly, as I have two meetings and a service call requiring my attention:

re: Colleges as training grounds for athletes at public expense.

Please see Equity in Athletics web portal. Type in the name of your most favored or hated college/university and view the amount of revenue generated by the respective athletic departments OUTSIDE of public funding. Most athletic departments at D-I level are funded by gate receipts, TV contracts, licensing (hats, flags, etc.), donations and boosters. In short, the majority of D-I schools generate a profit that has nothing to do with public money.

Don't like the graduation rates? Then blame the NCAA. The NCAA mandates such jokingly shallow attendance and GPA requirements for student athletes. One argument says that if the service academies can field halfway competitive D-I teams filled with geeks then so can other schools. The argument in response counters that not all athletes would receive the same opportunity because of academic constraints.

re: "If a person is playing in a sport and can not make the academic grade, they need to be cut/benched."

Athletes not in compliance with these paltry requirements are usually suspended from the team. Cliff Hawkins, the starting PG at Kentucky, missed the first half of last season because his grades were substandard.

I must go. I'll debate this topic later.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Report came out this morning. University of Georgia has highest graduation rate of it's Athletes at 67% while Texas has lowest at 16%.

But why is the rate at 67%?
If they enroll at college, they are expected to learn and implicitly graduate.
Otherwise, why are they going to college? :confused: Sports? Why should the colleges be a training bround for athletes at the public expense.
If the professional sports want somebody without an education, let them place the person into a minor leage training camp to season them up.

If a person is playing in a sport and can not make the academic grade, they need to be cut/benched.
If they exit school, and were there on any type of scholarship, they should be required to repay the cost of their education.

Any school that implemented that would have a difficult time recruiting Players.

Agreed - but what is the intention of higher education which is payed for by the taxpayer.
Actually Sports Programs like Football are a revenue source for many of the larger Universities. The scholarships doled out more than pay for themselves in the long run, especially in Football and Basketball. Why else would the University of Cincinati offer them when their Student Athlete graduation rate is under 10%?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: burnedoutI authored a paper on this very subject last semester for a grad class. Briefly, as I have two meetings and a service call requiring my attention:

re: Colleges as training grounds for athletes at public expense.

Please see Equity in Athletics web portal. Type in the name of your most favored or hated college/university and view the amount of revenue generated by the respective athletic departments OUTSIDE of public funding. Most athletic departments at D-I level are funded by gate receipts, TV contracts, licensing (hats, flags, etc.), donations and boosters. In short, the majority of D-I schools generate a profit that has nothing to do with public money.

Don't like the graduation rates? Then blame the NCAA. The NCAA mandates such jokingly shallow attendance and GPA requirements for student athletes. One argument says that if the service academies can field halfway competitive D-I teams filled with geeks then so can other schools. The argument in response counters that not all athletes would receive the same opportunity because of academic constraints.

re: "If a person is playing in a sport and can not make the academic grade, they need to be cut/benched."

Athletes not in compliance with these paltry requirements are usually suspended from the team. Cliff Hawkins, the starting PG at Kentucky, missed the first half of last season because his grades were substandard.

I must go. I'll debate this topic later.

Then blame the NCAA. The NCAA mandates such jokingly shallow attendance and GPA requirements for student athletes

I believe that NCAA stands for National Collegiate Athletic Association
From there web site
.. programs to govern, promote and further the purposes and goals of intercollegiate athletics

Note that this states intercollegiate athletics - Nowhere does it state education.
Does this mean that this organization controls the quality of education and can overrule the academics.
Or has the responsibility for the education of the student been passed from the Dean of Academics to the Director of Athletics

If a student athlete can not even pass with the sub-standard requirement grade level what does that say about the integrity of the academic system.
When a college is only graduating a 67% of its prime athletes, then it would indicate a serious problem.
The graduation rate of a college athlete should be the same as the complete class average, if not better when they have a scholarship.

Maybe the NCAA needs to be looked at with regard to the Sherman Act (anti-trust laws).

However it seems like we are preaching to the choir here.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

I believe that NCAA stands for National Collegiate Athletic Association
From there web site
.. programs to govern, promote and further the purposes and goals of intercollegiate athletics

Note that this states intercollegiate athletics - Nowhere does it state education.
Does this mean that this organization controls the quality of education and can overrule the academics.
Or has the responsibility for the education of the student been passed from the Dean of Academics to the Director of Athletics

If a student athlete can not even pass with the sub-standard requirement grade level what does that say about the integrity of the academic system.
When a college is only graduating a 67% of its prime athletes, then it would indicate a serious problem.
The graduation rate of a college athlete should be the same as the complete class average, if not better when they have a scholarship.

Maybe the NCAA needs to be looked at with regard to the Sherman Act (anti-trust laws).

However it seems like we are preaching to the choir here.
Two things while I'm on a short break.

1. The NCAA sets minimum requirements for participation. You are correct as graduation rate isn't directly the result of NCAA mandates. The AD's and culture at each institution usually dictate requirments in compliance with NCAA requirements. Therefore, one could then say that the NCAA is indirectly responsible. In other words, if the governing body raised standards then member schools, in theory, should comply.

2. Many have called for the abolition of the NCAA altogether for issues ranging from too many inapplicable regulations to micro-management of athletic programs. The fact of the matter is that without the NCAA, we would then see two worlds of college athletics: the "haves" and "have nots". The "haves" (OU, UK, Duke, UF, UCLA, <insert name of major conference school here>,) with their enormous resources and fanbases would simply squash the "have nots" (Baylor, Rice, Vanderbilt, TCU, SMU, Tulane, etc.) in terms of recruiting and revenue.

Yes, college athletics involves billions of dollars. Everybody likes to come up with novel theories on how to "fix" education by "de-emphasizing" athletics. What most folks can't understand is that economically, high school and college athletics are big business. Take away these opportunities for performance or generation of wealth and then watch people, and I mean people not directly associated with programs, get really pissed.

Indeed graduation rates suck for college athletes. However, another aspect most people fail to realize is that of every 1,000 college freshmen in 2-year and 4-year programs, less than 60 percent return for their sophomore years.

Well, back to work.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Science is great and so is foreign language but with all due respect these courses should not be required. This is just going back to the general education curriculim which has been a utter failure.

The general education system wasn't a *failure*, it was *abandoned* decades ago. What's been a failure is the education system *since then* that tries to teach everyone to be cuddly and soft even at the expense of their success in life.

General Education is *EXTREMELY* important. There is no ability more important to a successful life, and no ability more ignored by the Public School system, than the ability to REASON. Math and Science are the *perfect* subjects upon which to train one's reason, because they are based in concretes. You can find answers that are either right or wrong, PERIOD, and your ability to reach the right answers is improved as you learn to use your mind to Reason through facts to reach conclusions.

The ability to Reason can then be applied to art, literature, politics, philosophy, religion and every single other discipline that you will ever encounter for as long as you live.

If our grade schools (K-12) focused on sharpening our reasoning abilities, our Universities and trade schools could better focus on our career skills and our people might stop voting solely on the basis of Party Affiliation.

I guess that will probably doom the idea right there, heh ;)

Jason
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Report came out this morning. University of Georgia has highest graduation rate of it's Athletes at 67% while Texas has lowest at 16%.

But why is the rate at 67%?
If they enroll at college, they are expected to learn and implicitly graduate.
Otherwise, why are they going to college? :confused: Sports? Why should the colleges be a training bround for athletes at the public expense.
If the professional sports want somebody without an education, let them place the person into a minor leage training camp to season them up.

If a person is playing in a sport and can not make the academic grade, they need to be cut/benched.
If they exit school, and were there on any type of scholarship, they should be required to repay the cost of their education.

Any school that implemented that would have a difficult time recruiting Players.

Agreed - but what is the intention of higher education which is payed for by the taxpayer.
Actually Sports Programs like Football are a revenue source for many of the larger Universities. The scholarships doled out more than pay for themselves in the long run, especially in Football and Basketball. Why else would the University of Cincinati offer them when their Student Athlete graduation rate is under 10%?

Actually, the idea that "many of the larger universities" make money off these programs is a myth. Try Rick Telander's "The Hundred Yard Lie", Murray Sperber's "Beer and Circus", or any number of other books on the subject.
 

Dissipate

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Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Science is great and so is foreign language but with all due respect these courses should not be required. This is just going back to the general education curriculim which has been a utter failure.

The general education system wasn't a *failure*, it was *abandoned* decades ago. What's been a failure is the education system *since then* that tries to teach everyone to be cuddly and soft even at the expense of their success in life.

General Education is *EXTREMELY* important. There is no ability more important to a successful life, and no ability more ignored by the Public School system, than the ability to REASON. Math and Science are the *perfect* subjects upon which to train one's reason, because they are based in concretes. You can find answers that are either right or wrong, PERIOD, and your ability to reach the right answers is improved as you learn to use your mind to Reason through facts to reach conclusions.

The ability to Reason can then be applied to art, literature, politics, philosophy, religion and every single other discipline that you will ever encounter for as long as you live.

If our grade schools (K-12) focused on sharpening our reasoning abilities, our Universities and trade schools could better focus on our career skills and our people might stop voting solely on the basis of Party Affiliation.

I guess that will probably doom the idea right there, heh ;)

Jason


Sorry I disagree. General education is extremely important to people going to college but ends up being a waste of time for many who don't. As for science, great subject but is going to be almost useless to someone who becomes say an auto mechanic or a plumber. In order to understand how vein of a hope of general education is you have to see the average kid in high school. For a lot of these kids general education is a pipe dream, it is much more practical to get them into jobs and have them become productive members of society in some capacity. If these teens can be herded into trades before they graduate the probability that they will become criminals or welfare dependents later in life goes way down in my opinion.

Now as for reasoning, math does have reasoning and the foundations of mathematics are definately reasoning BUT pure reasoning is best taught in a course of logic. Logic (at my college anyways) is taught as a course in philosophy. I agree that logic is an important course, if more people took this course then they would be less likely to accept all the logical fallacies that are around them today. But once again this course is not an absolute neccesity for starting a career in a trade and therefore it should be optional.

Once you grasp the dire straits of the educational system you will understand that general education while is a noble goal in some respects is not usable or even attainable for the average student in today's educational system. At this point it is a matter of just getting the kid into a trade, off the streets and out of trouble.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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I disagree that science, math and Reasoning are not necessities. I think, on the contrary, that the ability to Reason should be the *primary* focus of the public education system. Our ability to reason is the source of our Rights, it is the primary tool by which we can observe the world and make intelligent choices.

While I understand and respect your opinion, I think it's a rather cynical view of the situation. While I certainly have my own cynical views about a lot of issues, I do try to remain an Idealist in the field of human intellectual betterment.

Regards,

Jason
 

Dissipate

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Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
I disagree that science, math and Reasoning are not necessities. I think, on the contrary, that the ability to Reason should be the *primary* focus of the public education system. Our ability to reason is the source of our Rights, it is the primary tool by which we can observe the world and make intelligent choices.

While I understand and respect your opinion, I think it's a rather cynical view of the situation. While I certainly have my own cynical views about a lot of issues, I do try to remain an Idealist in the field of human intellectual betterment.

Regards,

Jason

Yes, I agree about reasoning. People's inability to reason is the foundation of a lot of mankind's problems. Heck, a big part of the gambling industry is based upon people's inability to reason. But are we going to teach a low income kid who is at risk of becoming a gang member how to reason well enough to please a philosophy teacher or are we going to put him into a job so he stays off the streets?

I can understand that you see my view as cynical but on the contrary I see your view as unrealistic for the current situation. Students and their parents have to embrace intellectual pursuits, if they do not then the best place for these students is in the workplace and any plan that contradicts this principle will fail.