WTF is that? Since when do parents wield that kind of power? Educators have lost their balls and afriad to tell a parent their kid is stupid and needs to start over? We're putting ourselves in so many situations ourselves, becoming a Country of wusses and idiots except for the deviants that wormed their way into Boardrooms.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Schools are for teaching the basics. Sports should be community based - not school based. I don't want ANY school to have to choose between books(teachers) and helmets(coaches). There are plenty of ways schools can teach team building, community relations, competition besides extracurricular sports. FBLA, FHA, VICA(Is that still around?), FFA, and any other organization can easily help nurture those things you mentioned, not to mention in class activities.
I think I have to agree with BBD here(actually I KNOW I do
) and say that schools are for education - not sports.<-Football, Wrestling, Baseball.
CkG
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Dave, the problem is that the education administration has gotten gun shy.
Example:
I have a boy that teaches in middle school south of you.
He may fail a child, for not performing and/or doing the proper work. If so, the parent calls the school, and my boy then has to justisfy to the admin why the child received a non-passing grade. even having a grade book, does not cut it. He has to explain why the child was not given special treatment.
At times, he has been requested (by admin) to reverse the grade and was told last semester that no child will be allowed to fail. Not that the child will pass because of ability or grade inflation, but to fail, will hurt the self-esteem of the child. :wine:
Schools have been hit by lawsuits over emotional trauma to the parent and child when the child can not have what they or the parent desires.
And won
It goes back to responsibility at the family level and the will of society to do what is right for the schools at all levels.
Any weak link in the chain will sabatoge the whole effort.
Would somebody care to tell me what the actual percentage of highschool kids that even participate in competitive athletics outside of PE? You might be shocked to learn that this percentage is much lower than you think. Therefore the effect of highschool athletics on a kid's education is negligible. Repeat after me, negligible.
Highschool athletics serve many useful purposes. Community relationships, as in getting the parents out of the goddam house to at least see their kids perform in some kind of activity, is infinitely better than not.
No, sorry, this society does not need a composition of reclusive, disassociated, out-of-shape, non-identifying dweebs.
The education system (K-12) is not broken. The family is broken. Hold parents/care givers accountable for thier children's successes and failures in school.
Have standard tests (yes, from the government) that all students must pass to go to the next grade.
Hold parents/care givers accountable for thier children's successes and failrues in school.
Give the teachers the authority to remove disruptive children from the classroom so others can learn.
Hold parents/care givers accountable for thier children's successes and failrues in school... oh, I said that already.
Have standard tests (yes, from the government) that all students must pass to go to the next grade.
Hold parents/care givers accountable for thier children's successes and failrues in school.
Give the teachers the authority to remove disruptive children from the classroom so others can learn.
Hold parents/care givers accountable for thier children's successes and failrues in school... oh, I said that already.
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Dave, the problem is that the education administration has gotten gun shy.
Example:
I have a boy that teaches in middle school south of you.
He may fail a child, for not performing and/or doing the proper work. If so, the parent calls the school, and my boy then has to justisfy to the admin why the child received a non-passing grade. even having a grade book, does not cut it. He has to explain why the child was not given special treatment.
At times, he has been requested (by admin) to reverse the grade and was told last semester that no child will be allowed to fail. Not that the child will pass because of ability or grade inflation, but to fail, will hurt the self-esteem of the child. :wine:
Schools have been hit by lawsuits over emotional trauma to the parent and child when the child can not have what they or the parent desires.
And won
It goes back to responsibility at the family level and the will of society to do what is right for the schools at all levels.
Any weak link in the chain will sabatoge the whole effort.
Gotten gun shy except for bullsh1t like prosecuting a girl for taking Advil for Menstrual cramps or a couple of kids put a website criticizing some teachers and the list goes on and on.
There was only one thing I agreed with about the whole hour long speech last night, Frivilous Lawsuits of all kinds have to go. It's only good for Lawyers and the Courts and I know both would survive just only with the money they used to make not the insane amounts they make now.
As CAD so eloquently stated
there are multiple ways to accomplish the goals of teaching community, teamwork, and of course getting exercise. When I say de-emphasize . . . I don't recall a subliminal typeset . . . abolish. I wouldn't trade my decade of competitive (school-based) athletics for anything but shorter seasons, smaller stadiums, less equipment, and less attention wouldn't have bothered me in the least . . . but I bet it would save the majority of schools money (overall).One curious phenomena (IMHO correlative not causation) is the tremendous expansion in female participation in athletics and their emerging dominance in undergraduate ed. I have no data but IMO and personal experience most female athletes are superior students to their male counterparts . . . granted I've seen significant outliers (I used to tutor a football player who became a Med School colleague). Strengthening the mind AND body should be encouraged at all levels of human development . . . but I'm not exactly surprised that TX football is far superior to TX academic achievement.
<----Football, basketball, and track.
And what would many of the minorities/lower class do if HS sports were curtailed? Do you know how many potential student-athletes from the lower class rely upon this opportunity to showcase their skills in front of college scouts? Everybody on this board loves to snivel and blindly grope around in the dark about how rough the lower class has it. Now you wanna screw them even more.
No, don't get me started on this subject. I can argue it all day.
Schools are certainly for education. Who says a kid MUST go out for a sport?Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Schools are for teaching the basics. Sports should be community based - not school based. I don't want ANY school to have to choose between books(teachers) and helmets(coaches). There are plenty of ways schools can teach team building, community relations, competition besides extracurricular sports. FBLA, FHA, VICA(Is that still around?), FFA, and any other organization can easily help nurture those things you mentioned, not to mention in class activities.
I think I have to agree with BBD here(actually I KNOW I do
<-Football, Wrestling, Baseball.
CkG
And what would many of the minorities/lower class do if HS sports were curtailed? Do you know how many potential student-athletes from the lower class rely upon this opportunity to showcase their skills in front of college scouts? Everybody on this board loves to snivel and blindly grope around in the dark about how rough the lower class has it. Now you wanna screw them even more.
No, don't get me started on this subject. I can argue it all day.
It also doesn't surprise me that Texas SAT average scores are higher than North Carolina
ACT scores are higher in Texas also
But I digress. Anyhow, so much for that uninformed, misguided remark. I'm from Kentucky and just here on extended vacation.
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Nothing wrong with letting the many potential student-athletes getting to showcase their skills. Problem is that the emphisis needs to be on the word
student. A child that is not academicly prepared will either be a atheletic tool to be thrown away in college (assuming that he can make it) or be no better than what he is now.
Very few sports athletes from HS make it past bench warming in college. Even less make it to the pros and excel.
I would suspect that no more than 10% of varsity players make it onto the college team. Big fish in small pond syndrome.
What percentage of college players are actually graduating?
These kids need to learn to make it in the world using their heads first. That way they have something to fall back on.
Let them play competive sports for the school if they have grades that are equal to the rest of the student body.
They should not be rewarded for sub-par performance. :disgust:
What type of message does that teach them on how the real world operates?
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
Originally posted by: burnedout
<----Football, basketball, and track.
Schools are certainly for education. Who says a kid MUST go out for a sport?Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Schools are for teaching the basics. Sports should be community based - not school based. I don't want ANY school to have to choose between books(teachers) and helmets(coaches). There are plenty of ways schools can teach team building, community relations, competition besides extracurricular sports. FBLA, FHA, VICA(Is that still around?), FFA, and any other organization can easily help nurture those things you mentioned, not to mention in class activities.
I think I have to agree with BBD here(actually I KNOW I do
<-Football, Wrestling, Baseball.
CkG
And what would many of the minorities/lower class do if HS sports were curtailed? Do you know how many potential student-athletes from the lower class rely upon this opportunity to showcase their skills in front of college scouts? Everybody on this board loves to snivel and blindly grope around in the dark about how rough the lower class has it. Now you wanna screw them even more.
No, don't get me started on this subject. I can argue it all day.
I think you are missing the point. Sports are great- I think it's a great thing for those who are involved, but I also don't think it should be the focus of our educational system. Create community based sports - have school interaction with it - sure, but sports needs to be separated from education. IMO
School is for school - sports should not take the place of school.
The racial/minority issue doesn't play - it affects ALL schools.
CkG
Here's the problem with that rationale . . . coming from an MD no less. What portion of the lawsuits are frivolous? Most medical disciplines have regular M&M conferences. Technically, it stands for Morbidity & Mortality but it's often a review of MedMal. In fact, the hospital legal team typically gives a presentation up to twice a year.
Doctors/hospitals are often sued for errors in judgment, errors in protocol, errors in infrastructure. Sometimes we are sued for bad outcomes that are beyond our control. And sometimes we are sued for no reason at all except profit motive. Only the latter item can be addressed appropriately by tort reform. The former two items are often highlighted by lawsuits and often produce changes in training, protocol, infrastructure that provide a net benefit to the process of healthcare.
If the goal is to reduce the cost of healthcare, an intelligent approach would be a systematic analysis of the components of healthcare costs with an evaluation of change in component costs over time. Once you know the component costs, how fast costs are rising for a given component, and the source of the inflation . . . you can have a reasoned, practical . . . and public debate over what course of action(s) is appropriate.
general tort reform in TX was a bust . . . except for business interests
Arguably one of the most morally bankrupt professional associations in America . . . and yes I used to be a member.
KK
Lifer
- Jan 2, 2001
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Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: burnedout
<----Football, basketball, and track.
Schools are certainly for education. Who says a kid MUST go out for a sport?Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Schools are for teaching the basics. Sports should be community based - not school based. I don't want ANY school to have to choose between books(teachers) and helmets(coaches). There are plenty of ways schools can teach team building, community relations, competition besides extracurricular sports. FBLA, FHA, VICA(Is that still around?), FFA, and any other organization can easily help nurture those things you mentioned, not to mention in class activities.
I think I have to agree with BBD here(actually I KNOW I do
<-Football, Wrestling, Baseball.
CkG
And what would many of the minorities/lower class do if HS sports were curtailed? Do you know how many potential student-athletes from the lower class rely upon this opportunity to showcase their skills in front of college scouts? Everybody on this board loves to snivel and blindly grope around in the dark about how rough the lower class has it. Now you wanna screw them even more.
No, don't get me started on this subject. I can argue it all day.
I think you are missing the point. Sports are great- I think it's a great thing for those who are involved, but I also don't think it should be the focus of our educational system. Create community based sports - have school interaction with it - sure, but sports needs to be separated from education. IMO
School is for school - sports should not take the place of school.
The racial/minority issue doesn't play - it affects ALL schools.
CkG
Look at college football, how many players on the football/basketball team actual guaduate? And if they do, how much padding was put into their grades to get them to pass. Colleges were meant to be higher learning schools, not stepping stones to the Pros. Now in High school, it's not nearly as bad as college. But it's pretty farked up when the football field is upkept better than the school itself. What would you want your kid to have, new pads for football or new science books? Sports just needs to come in second to education, that's my only beef with it.
KK
Hi,
On a slightly related note:
I saw an article in USA today where an A grade student was given a $5,000/year scholarship to study at Arizona state University (usual tuition price is $10,000/year). His parents made $105,000/year between them and were cited as saying "couldn't afford his education without a scholarship". No mention of multiple kids, extenuating circumstances, etc. was made.
Arizona state uni were quoted as saying "we used to give scholarships to those who were unable. Now we give them to those who are unable or unwilling".
I don't think giving financial help to those who could pay but choose not too over those who are mentally able but hard up as a good use of public funds.
Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Andy
EDIT: Found the article here
On a slightly related note:
I saw an article in USA today where an A grade student was given a $5,000/year scholarship to study at Arizona state University (usual tuition price is $10,000/year). His parents made $105,000/year between them and were cited as saying "couldn't afford his education without a scholarship". No mention of multiple kids, extenuating circumstances, etc. was made.
Arizona state uni were quoted as saying "we used to give scholarships to those who were unable. Now we give them to those who are unable or unwilling".
I don't think giving financial help to those who could pay but choose not too over those who are mentally able but hard up as a good use of public funds.
Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Andy
EDIT: Found the article here
Dissipate
Diamond Member
- Jan 17, 2004
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Reform the curriculim. The curriculim in today's educational system is thousands of years old, it is based on the ridiculous assumption that those who have a shallow understanding of many subjects are somehow more educated than those who have a strong understanding of a single subject. Middle school is different but I know for a fact that the best way to reform high schools around the nation is to convert the curriculim to a trade skill based system while retaining the "wonderful" general education program for those who attend college after high school.
Corporations could be brought in to this as they would be interested in having the high schools provide them with trained employees.
It doesn't take an expert in education to realize that high schools only cater to college bound students while the majority of graduates end up with nothing.
Here is my idea on the best high school curriculim:
Trade bound student:
Two years of math and English
Two years of trade training
Guranteed job placement after graduation
College bound student:
Same curriculim as we have now
- Oct 30, 2000
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How about a trade school setup equivalent to community college (AA) level.
This way they have the skills to switch over and are not locked into a trade carreer.
Increase the English & Math to 4 years
Put in 4 years of Science
Put in mandatory 2 years of a foreign language.
Add 2 years of introductory Trade on a semester by semester basis.
What exists now does not always prepare the student for college or the real world.
Employment guarentees smacks too much of socialism.
Let the employers support the trade community college as a no-charge, guarenteed job upon completion.
This way they have an investment in the quality of students coming out.
Well this is a subject that could go for ten million pages without anyone even coming close to agreement
I'll just say this: School Choice vouchers. Higher Standards. Better pay for good teachers, termination for bad teachers. Parents who give a damn.
Jason
I'll just say this: School Choice vouchers. Higher Standards. Better pay for good teachers, termination for bad teachers. Parents who give a damn.
Jason
I for one, when I have children, will be raising them in a proper Christian environment with a wife I will never leave and instill in them the same characteristics, traits, faith, life lessons, morals and ethics that I grew up with. After that, my wife and I will be choosing private schools that are funded properly for them to learn in, or public schools if the ones in our area are any good. But in case of the latter, we'll be choosing those as well. But heck if I'm saving up for a private University for each of them! Larger public universities are not that bad.
To fix education (I'm assuming public schools), they obviously need better funding. And just just for computers and security, but for teachers- they are the driving force with parents on what the next generation of citizens are going to become. They are underpaid and underappreciated. I hate to make the topic another "just throw some money at it" answer, but that's really the answer primarily.
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Well this is a subject that could go for ten million pages without anyone even coming close to agreement
I'll just say this: School Choice vouchers. Higher Standards. Better pay for good teachers, termination for bad teachers. Parents who give a damn.
Jason
School Choice vouchers - not need and counter destructive - theory is solved by your next 3 options.
Higher Standards Add $$$ to get the infrastructure behind those standards
Better pay for good teachers[/b] Add $$
Termination for bad teachers[/b][
Parents who give a damn Impractical for the short term - Will take 1-2 generations to take hold.
Public must stay the course as resit pressure to take the easy way out.
As I have stated previously, this will take twice as long to fix as it did to create.
Originally posted by: SynthesisI
I for one, when I have children, will be raising them in a proper Christian environment with a wife I will never leave and instill in them the same characteristics, traits, faith, life lessons, morals and ethics that I grew up with. After that, my wife and I will be choosing private schools that are funded properly for them to learn in, or public schools if the ones in our area are any good. But in case of the latter, we'll be choosing those as well. But heck if I'm saving up for a private University for each of them! Larger public universities are not that bad.
To fix education (I'm assuming public schools), they obviously need better funding. And just just for computers and security, but for teachers- they are the driving force with parents on what the next generation of citizens are going to become. They are underpaid and underappreciated. I hate to make the topic another "just throw some money at it" answer, but that's really the answer primarily.
Throwing money at is the primary answer? Do you know we spend more on education than *any* industrialized nation and we *still* have lower scores?
Full Story
This is an issue that won't be solved by money alone. Higher standards are *necessary* for teachers and for students. It's time to put the thumbscrews to work.
Jason
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Well this is a subject that could go for ten million pages without anyone even coming close to agreement
I'll just say this: School Choice vouchers. Higher Standards. Better pay for good teachers, termination for bad teachers. Parents who give a damn.
Jason
School Choice vouchers - not need and counter destructive - theory is solved by your next 3 options.
Higher Standards Add $$$ to get the infrastructure behind those standards
Better pay for good teachers[/b] Add $$[/b]
Termination for bad teachers[/b][
Parents who give a damn Impractical for the short term - Will take 1-2 generations to take hold.
Your assertion on school vouchers being unnecessary is completely without foundation. And what is "Counter Destructive," anyway?
As for more $$ being needed, we *already* spend more than anyone else, that *isn't* the problem.
Also, parents who give a damn aren't "impractical for the short term," they are part of the OVERALL long-term solution.
And you're right, this will take longer to clean up than it took to break, no question about it.
Jason
Public must stay the course as resit pressure to take the easy way out.
As I have stated previously, this will take twice as long to fix as it did to create.
- Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Well this is a subject that could go for ten million pages without anyone even coming close to agreement
I'll just say this: School Choice vouchers. Higher Standards. Better pay for good teachers, termination for bad teachers. Parents who give a damn.
Jason
School Choice vouchers - not need and counter destructive - theory is solved by your next 3 options.
Higher Standards Add $$$ to get the infrastructure behind those standards
Better pay for good teachers[/b] Add $$
Termination for bad teachers[/b][
Parents who give a damn Impractical for the short term - Will take 1-2 generations to take hold.
Your assertion on school vouchers being unnecessary is completely without foundation. And what is "Counter Destructive," anyway?
As for more $$ being needed, we *already* spend more than anyone else, that *isn't* the problem.
Also, parents who give a damn aren't "impractical for the short term," they are part of the OVERALL long-term solution.
And you're right, this will take longer to clean up than it took to break, no question about it.
Jason
Public must stay the course as resit pressure to take the easy way out.
As I have stated previously, this will take twice as long to fix as it did to create.
School vouchers provide a way for a school system to avoid the responsibilty of maintaining standards. T
Those quality children will move out to the better school system, creating the same situation as we have now with magnet and private schools.
As the students shif, so will the funds to support the students. Therefore, those that are left behind have less support and opportunity to move ahead.
You would create the same problems that busing does.
The vouchers allow everyone to avoid the pain of straightening out the problem, by defering it onto to someone else.
Funds is not being directed to where it is needed. There may be enough overall, but much is being wasted.
Many schools are run down and unsafe. The equipment to train students is badly outdated or non-existant.
New schools in the more affluent areas are built and outfitted with the new equipment.
Minimal funds are allocated for the older school systems/districts.
Impractical was a poor choice of wording within the context.
Many parents do not give a damm because they do not see any short term results.
Impractical was intended as the system can start correcting itself, however, to count on the attitudes of a parent with a non-HS education supporting the changes - most likely will not happen if it involves them getting directly involved. Yes there aer some exceptions, however, those that understand the benefits will have to compensate for the inertia of those who are blind.
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