Right, if only the republicans got out of the way our high cost manufacturing could magically compete with low cost manufacutring abroad. Where do you people come up with this crap?
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How do we bring manufacturing back to the US?
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Right, if only the republicans got out of the way our high cost manufacturing could magically compete with low cost manufacutring abroad. Where do you people come up with this crap?
No, $30 an hour is not an unreasonable wage for skilled labor, but how much labor in the manufacturing sector was skilled vs. unskilled? Obviously, some manufacturing tasks like welding take actual skill, but something like putting nuts on bolts all day on an assembly line is a task which you could teach a monkey to do. That does not take skill, and is NOT worth $30/hr.
Well, we have a few problems.
1. As mentioned, supporting countries that do not have good labor laws in place means we do not have a level playing field.
2. Efficiency Is very good and there is lots of benefit to being efficient. However, efficiency doesn't "make jobs". Efficiency kills them. Suppose you have 100 workers. A method is implemented that reduces your labor need to 50 workers. Are you going to keep them if you can make more $$$ by getting rid of them?(even if you're already profitable?) It also makes it easier for businesses to a. pay their workers less(increased labor competition) and b. work their current employees more hours(nowhere else for current employees to go)
3. People don't understand how jobs are "made". People seem to think that when a company starts making more money, it will hire more people. Demand for labor makes jobs, not company profits. Profitability enables a company to hire more workers, however... it doesn't guarantee that it will do so. A company isn't going to hire people just to be nice(ahem, well, maybe if it's a small local business... but even then.). It hires more workers because it NEEDS them.
So what do I think?
1. Remedies have already been suggested and I mostly agree. We need to find ways to encourage these countries to improve their labor standards.
2. Re-evaluate FLSA exemptions. Possibly, changes to OT laws. I do not mean to suggest that we should change what a full-time week is, however perhaps there should be a third tier of OT for, say, over 60 hours a week. Although, really... 1 needs to be fixed first as otherwise it will only work in certain industries.
3. I'm at a loss 🙂
Oh yeah, I also agree that there are many people who have unreasonable expectations for wages. Depending on what your COLA is in the area, 20$ an hour is pretty damn good. It is where I live.
1. As mentioned, supporting countries that do not have good labor laws in place means we do not have a level playing field.
2. Efficiency Is very good and there is lots of benefit to being efficient. However, efficiency doesn't "make jobs". Efficiency kills them. Suppose you have 100 workers. A method is implemented that reduces your labor need to 50 workers. Are you going to keep them if you can make more $$$ by getting rid of them?(even if you're already profitable?) It also makes it easier for businesses to a. pay their workers less(increased labor competition) and b. work their current employees more hours(nowhere else for current employees to go)
3. People don't understand how jobs are "made". People seem to think that when a company starts making more money, it will hire more people. Demand for labor makes jobs, not company profits. Profitability enables a company to hire more workers, however... it doesn't guarantee that it will do so. A company isn't going to hire people just to be nice(ahem, well, maybe if it's a small local business... but even then.). It hires more workers because it NEEDS them.
So what do I think?
1. Remedies have already been suggested and I mostly agree. We need to find ways to encourage these countries to improve their labor standards.
2. Re-evaluate FLSA exemptions. Possibly, changes to OT laws. I do not mean to suggest that we should change what a full-time week is, however perhaps there should be a third tier of OT for, say, over 60 hours a week. Although, really... 1 needs to be fixed first as otherwise it will only work in certain industries.
3. I'm at a loss 🙂
Oh yeah, I also agree that there are many people who have unreasonable expectations for wages. Depending on what your COLA is in the area, 20$ an hour is pretty damn good. It is where I live.
dank69
Lifer
And welding can be done better and faster by machines.
dmcowen674
No Lifer
This question has been talked about quite a bit.
I say simple revoke the American Charter of Corporations that still claim to be an American Company while meanwhile have outsourced everything to other countries while still taking tax breaks and taking taxpayer money.
Just a couple of examples:
Hershey chocolate. Moved the factory to Mexico, still claim to be based in Hershey Pennsylvania.
Colgate toothpaste - same thing, made in Mexico, still claims to be an American company.
Yes, in most cases, that's very true. But regardless, some labor can't be automated (yet) and requires great skill. Those jobs are usually well-paid and aren't being off-shored so quickly. That was my point.
dank69
Lifer
Yes, I was just adding to your point.
I assume you have been living in a cave for a long time.
There has been a massive amount of information posted here on the issue.
Your heart's in the right place I'm guessing, but when we have millions of laid off factory workers, high school training isn't what's needed.
You might not like the answer - but it includes things like taking money out of the accounts of the wealthy for them to own more, and using it for productive things.
It might involve some protectionism, which free-market ideologues are quick to point out the costs of - but they seem to assume infinite buying power for us.
I think he is referring to the rights hard on with high profit margins at any expense.
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What makes you think factory jobs will pay $30.00 an hour? I dont think those kind of jobs will even pay $20.00 hr unless the job is for a technical position like machinist or electrician. Some unions might be able to get some larger salaries, but that isnt always the case.
I think there are an awful lot of overpayed people in this country.
I think there are an awful lot of overpayed people in this country.
The ones that have been off shored in the Manufacturing field I am in are quickly coming back because the quality of Chinese work is a joke.
People could turn some manufacturing into non-profits and they still couldnt compete. Blaming it on profits is silly and a non-starter anyways. People form corporations to create wealth. One cant create wealth when they cant turn a profit. And that isnt a right or left issue anyways. Both sides of the spectrum love profits. You think Al Gore pushes green energy for free? 😀
QuantumPion
Diamond Member
Efficiency creates jobs by lowering the price of goods, which frees up money to buy other goods. Increasing productivity is what allowed civilization to transit from subsistence/agrarian to industrialized. Do you think if we hampered efficiency by say, banning mechanized farming equipment in order to create more farming jobs, that we would create more jobs in the long run? Obviously not. Efficiency destroys jobs that are inefficient and replaces them with more jobs which are more efficient. You cannot make the economy better by forcing it to be less efficient.
Never said he did nor was I taking a stance on what he said just was interpreting it.
kage69
Lifer
I addressed this line of reasoning in my previous post. We can try all sorts of things to mask the issue. But long term it will fail. If this passed. How many jobs do you believe would have come back?
dank69
Lifer
I understand your point and agree that it might not have brought a substantial amount of jobs back to the US. However, that does not take away the fact that the GOP voted to continue to reward companies that offshore jobs and not reward companies that do bring jobs back. How can any American agree with this vote?
What field is this? I'd be interested in hearing more.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
I don't see anything in the Constitution that prevents Congress from imposing tariffs and from regulating international trade. My reading of it is that the Constitution explicitly grants that power to Congress.
To me, it seems pretty clear that Congress and regulate international trade unless there's some Supreme Court decision that says otherwise.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
A closed American free market would determine the proper price of American labor in terms of purchasing power and standard of living.
Would it be reasonable for a full-time worker to be able to afford a small house, car, and health care? That's something our free market would determine. Given our current level of technological advance it doesn't seem unreasonable since Americans had that back in the Fifties and Sixties.
You know what else is real expensive? Having huge amounts of unemployed and underemployed Americans in addition to Americans who only earn poverty wages.
What if we could increase the percentage of the population that was employed at middle class and lower-middle class jobs while prices for goods and services increased by 20%? Government welfare expenditures (and potentially tax rates) would decrease. Might we be better off if the visible front-end costs for goods and services increased while the invisible (and so often ignored) back-end costs decreased dramatically?
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
Would $15/hour be more reasonable? Does it really matter if millions of Americans fucked off in college as long as they learn or acquire an economically useful skill at some point, which might be on-the-job experience at a factory? The overwhelming majority of jobs don't make any real use of education beyond middle school reading and writing. (So what if someone fucked off in history class or science class--how is that knowledge going to be useful for a truck driver or a waitress or a factory mechanic?)
I agree, but I also think the government has a duty to protect them from third world, fifty-cents-an-hour without labor or environmental regulations labor.
The notion that skills become so quickly outdated is overblown and just used to reinforce the free market dogmatists claim that the problem is the workers and not economic policy.
Why do you think intellect would not be rewarded under a closed American free market? There would still be higher paying physician, engineer, and management jobs.
In fact, did you know that under our current system, intellect is often NOT rewarded but punished? Every time someone graduates from college and cannot find a job in his field yet has student loans that can't be discharged in bankruptcy, as is the case today, intellect is punished. We have large oversupplies of PhD. scientists, MBAs, and lawyers (all high intellect types) who are unemployed and underemployed.
Since intellect is currently being punished in this country, what makes you think it would be even more punished if we had trade protectionism and greater government regulation of the amount of people who go to college?
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
It left because American labor cannot compete against impoverished third world labor that earns fifty-cents-an-hour without labor and environmental regulations.
Are you proposing that American wages and regulations should be reduced to third world levels and that the "solution" to our nation's economic problems is simply to capitulate and adopt a third world standard of living?
That's what it sounds like many free market advocates are advocating, but they're afraid to come out and say that what they really believe is that a very small percentage of the population should be very rich while the rest of the populace is dirt poor.
Of course it left because our labor is overpriced in the market for what they do. How do we fix that? I am not advocating anything. Only pointing out the reality of the situation. We can try to mask the situation by subsidizing it, giving tax breaks, imposing tarriffs, pretending we dont live in a global economy. But long term that will become too costly and fail.
dank69
Lifer
Bolded the important part. Many do not do this. I agree that on the job training needs to make a comeback. So many companies want skilled labor but are unwilling to train them. Absolutely retarded.
I disagree. But for the sake of argument, let's say I did agree. How could our government possibly do this?
My intention wasn't to exaggerate the speed at which skills become obsolete. My point was that someone could spend half their life training and honing their skill only to find out that, whether abruptly or not, the skill is no longer in demand. Everyone needs to adapt to changing times.
I do not consider a college degree to be the sole indicator of intellect. It is up to the individual to study a marketable field if they intend to land a good paying job.
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