The US fought the Nazis, the Catholic church supported them, so how can any Catholic call himself an American?
posting references like this doesn't "prove" your point.
what makes you think that ALL speaks for the Catholic church?
"If you want to ignore your church's teachings..." -
sorry. i both know & understand the teachings. so do millions of other
Catholics. we're not all wrong just because you say so.
"Doesn't supporting a pro-abortion candidate make you pro-abortion?" - no, it doesn't.
"Personally attacking me" - it's not meant as a personal attack. but, not being Catholic
makes you lose credibility (if you're trying to argue Catholic issues) & makes your motives suspect.
"doesn't make the issue go away" - maybe not for you, but the issue is settled in the minds of the many
Catholics i know in this way: no candidate is perfect. you have to balance the
views, experience, and competence of each candidate before you vote.
i have nothing more to add. PM me if you like.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
It seems to me the quest of the "religious" is to do with getting to heaven.
It would also seem to me that the loving of thy neighbor is not consistent with bombing him.. feeding, clothing and sheltering him, yes... but, bombing him ... I don't think so..
In any event, it is the individual who needs being concerned about what actions (sins) the individual commits... not which or what ones his neighbor commits. Support for or against Abortion is one among many issues within the platform of the party (ies). I don't think God will consider a sin committed by your neighbor as being one committed by you. The old Lumber in they own eye.... theory of Heavenly Juris Prudence.
So, while we're about the work of Ceasar we will find conflicts with our own path to heaven... don't abort a baby and we won't have that to worry about.. and let others decide for themselves if heaven exists or not.. God wanted it that way anyhow.. seems to me..
It would also seem to me that the loving of thy neighbor is not consistent with bombing him.. feeding, clothing and sheltering him, yes... but, bombing him ... I don't think so..
In any event, it is the individual who needs being concerned about what actions (sins) the individual commits... not which or what ones his neighbor commits. Support for or against Abortion is one among many issues within the platform of the party (ies). I don't think God will consider a sin committed by your neighbor as being one committed by you. The old Lumber in they own eye.... theory of Heavenly Juris Prudence.
So, while we're about the work of Ceasar we will find conflicts with our own path to heaven... don't abort a baby and we won't have that to worry about.. and let others decide for themselves if heaven exists or not.. God wanted it that way anyhow.. seems to me..
Shuxclams
Diamond Member
- Oct 10, 1999
- 9,286
- 15
- 81
I support both Abortion Rights and the Death Penalty and was raised Catholic..... Matter of fact I support Civil Unions for all people and leave the definition of marriage to Religions as a religious identification of a civil-union as a marriage.
So I am not understanding what the problem is... Oh wait... religious believes interferring with Politics, yeah I think this is why the Framers wanted a separation of Church and State.
SHUX
Even if true, I wouldn't equate that with "supporting" the Nazi's.
Regarding the source:
WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY
Wikipedia is an online open-content encyclopedia, that is, a voluntary association of individuals and groups who are developing a common resource of human knowledge. Its structure allows any individual with an Internet connection and World Wide Web browser to alter the content found here. Therefore, please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by professionals who are knowledgeable in the particular areas of expertise necessary to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information about any subject in Wikipedia...
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Here's anothjer viewpoint:
Nazis and Church Locked Horns Early
What was the Catholic Church's position on Hitler before he came to power?
Father Gumpel: Before Hitler's arrival in power, the German Episcopate condemned the National Socialist Movement repeatedly and categorically. It prohibited Catholics from being associated with it or voting for it. The vast majority of faithful followed these instructions. From the statistics, regarding the political votes that took place on Jan. 30, 1933, and on March 5 of the same year, it is readily seen that virtually all the Catholics remained faithful to the Zentrum Christian party, well-known for its opposition to Hitler's Party.
What was the basis of the Catholic opposition?
This vehement opposition of the German [bishops] and the Catholic faithful was based essentially on the fact that in his book, Mein Kampf, and in his speeches, Hitler took the supremacy of the state to an extreme, to the degree of doing away with individual freedom. Moreover, his theology was totally pagan and racist, in conflict with the open and determined condemnation of anti-Semitism proclaimed by the [Vatican's] Holy Office, by order of Pius XI as early as 1928. In a word, Hitler was a pure opportunist, who lied publicly and consciously; therefore, he was someone who did not inspire trust.
What was the role of Archbishop Eugenio Pacelli, the future Pius XII, in all this? He has been accused of failing to denounce Nazism sufficiently, and of being "Hitler's Pope."
The German [bishops'] position was identical with that of Eugenio Pacelli, then [serving as] apostolic nuncio in Germany. He also actively supported this position. During his stay in Germany, Pacelli made 44 public speeches and in 40 of these attacked the fundamental theses of communism and National Socialism.
Can you site an example of his personal feelings toward Hitler?
As Sister Pascalina, his close collaborator, explains and is confirmed by other witnesses, Pacelli, the future Pius XII, said of Hitler: "This man is completely earned away; everything he says and writes has the mark of his egocentrism; this man is capable of trampling on corpses and eliminating anything that is an obstacle. I cannot understand how there are so many people in Germany who do not understand him, and cannot draw conclusions from what he says or writes. Have any of them even read his horrifying Mein Kampf?"
Some authors maintain that the relation between the Church and Nazism changed after the concordat between the Holy See and Germany in 1933.
As the Vatican itself and the most astute Catholics foresaw, Hitler never had any intention of respecting the concordat. With the exception of the strictly liturgical or para-liturgical functions, the rest of the Church's activities were systematically hampered and later gradually suppressed. The newspapers, magazines and books published by Catholics were quickly [and] strictly censured and later eliminated. Religious schools were blocked in their activity by fraudulent methods and later closed.
Numerous Catholic associations were forced to join with Nazi associations, or were banned and dissolved.
Nazis and Church Locked Horns Early
What was the Catholic Church's position on Hitler before he came to power?
Father Gumpel: Before Hitler's arrival in power, the German Episcopate condemned the National Socialist Movement repeatedly and categorically. It prohibited Catholics from being associated with it or voting for it. The vast majority of faithful followed these instructions. From the statistics, regarding the political votes that took place on Jan. 30, 1933, and on March 5 of the same year, it is readily seen that virtually all the Catholics remained faithful to the Zentrum Christian party, well-known for its opposition to Hitler's Party.
What was the basis of the Catholic opposition?
This vehement opposition of the German [bishops] and the Catholic faithful was based essentially on the fact that in his book, Mein Kampf, and in his speeches, Hitler took the supremacy of the state to an extreme, to the degree of doing away with individual freedom. Moreover, his theology was totally pagan and racist, in conflict with the open and determined condemnation of anti-Semitism proclaimed by the [Vatican's] Holy Office, by order of Pius XI as early as 1928. In a word, Hitler was a pure opportunist, who lied publicly and consciously; therefore, he was someone who did not inspire trust.
What was the role of Archbishop Eugenio Pacelli, the future Pius XII, in all this? He has been accused of failing to denounce Nazism sufficiently, and of being "Hitler's Pope."
The German [bishops'] position was identical with that of Eugenio Pacelli, then [serving as] apostolic nuncio in Germany. He also actively supported this position. During his stay in Germany, Pacelli made 44 public speeches and in 40 of these attacked the fundamental theses of communism and National Socialism.
Can you site an example of his personal feelings toward Hitler?
As Sister Pascalina, his close collaborator, explains and is confirmed by other witnesses, Pacelli, the future Pius XII, said of Hitler: "This man is completely earned away; everything he says and writes has the mark of his egocentrism; this man is capable of trampling on corpses and eliminating anything that is an obstacle. I cannot understand how there are so many people in Germany who do not understand him, and cannot draw conclusions from what he says or writes. Have any of them even read his horrifying Mein Kampf?"
Some authors maintain that the relation between the Church and Nazism changed after the concordat between the Holy See and Germany in 1933.
As the Vatican itself and the most astute Catholics foresaw, Hitler never had any intention of respecting the concordat. With the exception of the strictly liturgical or para-liturgical functions, the rest of the Church's activities were systematically hampered and later gradually suppressed. The newspapers, magazines and books published by Catholics were quickly [and] strictly censured and later eliminated. Religious schools were blocked in their activity by fraudulent methods and later closed.
Numerous Catholic associations were forced to join with Nazi associations, or were banned and dissolved.
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