if you try to stretch the meaning of "complicity," then pretty soon you'd
include everyone, not just those who are in "Formal cooperation," such as taxpayers,
people who DON'T picket abortion clinics, your or your employer's contributions to
HMO's that offer abortions, etc.
"Don't you think there is complicity..." No, that would be saying that you (qua voter)
or the politician are partially responsible for the sins of other people (those having or
directly participating in abortions).
there are many other issues that Catholics feel strongly about, such as social justice,
that come into the picture, too, so you have to look at all of the politican's positions
before deciding.
there are plenty of Democratic & Republican politicans who are pro-choice,
but only because a majority of voters want that. so, you also need to
look at someone's depth of commitment to the issue.
of course, if you're a one issue voter, then nuances are irrelevant.
you are correct, but if a law is viewed as unjust why not fight it.
here is a topic of a previous catholic sermon, "There is no such thing as an illegal human being".
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
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most US catholics are anything but orthodox catholics.
are most us catholics against all forms of birth control?? that IS the official position of the church you know. have sex and have children, sex for joy? oh no, not even with your wife/husband.
just one of the absurdities of trying to bundle all catholics together.
are most us catholics against all forms of birth control?? that IS the official position of the church you know. have sex and have children, sex for joy? oh no, not even with your wife/husband.
just one of the absurdities of trying to bundle all catholics together.
Regarding the death penalty, here is the Catholic position. It's quite different from the positin on abortion. To equate the two is falicious.
The Death Penalty and Catechism
The Vatican announced modifications to the Catechism on September 8, 1997. Included were significant changes to the language regarding capital punishment. The new language reflects the Holy Father's teaching in the 1995 Encyclical, Evangelium Vitae. While the Church continues to maintain that legitimate state authorities have an obligation to protect society from aggressors, including the use of capital punishment,other options make the carrying out of such a punishment "very rare if practically nonexistent." Below are the sections that were modified to make this argument:
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
2266 "The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and the duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must
contribute to the correction of the guilty party.
2267 "Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm--without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself--the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are rare, if not practically non-existent.' (NT: John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56)
The Death Penalty and Catechism
The Vatican announced modifications to the Catechism on September 8, 1997. Included were significant changes to the language regarding capital punishment. The new language reflects the Holy Father's teaching in the 1995 Encyclical, Evangelium Vitae. While the Church continues to maintain that legitimate state authorities have an obligation to protect society from aggressors, including the use of capital punishment,other options make the carrying out of such a punishment "very rare if practically nonexistent." Below are the sections that were modified to make this argument:
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
2266 "The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and the duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must
contribute to the correction of the guilty party.
2267 "Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm--without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself--the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity 'are rare, if not practically non-existent.' (NT: John Paul II, Evangelium vitae 56)
Actually, I think most Catholics are Democrats because of the whole Kennedy thing. Most Catholics aren't practicing Catholics and that's probably why. Protestents are definately more conservative (as a whole) in this country. But you are right when you say many Catholic beliefs are very much pro Republican, anti Democrat.
How can you be a sports player or viewer and a Catholic ?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040326/od_nm/pope_sport_dc_1
Originally posted by: xochi
Notre Dame plays on saturday
It seems you are wrong.
http://www.purdueexponent.org/2001/03/30/
How can you be a sports player or viewer and a Catholic ?
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040326/od_nm/pope_sport_dc_1[/quote]
Notre Dame plays on saturday
[/quote]It seems you are wrong.
http://www.purdueexponent.org/2001/03/30/[/quote]
i was thinking football myself, but i stand corrected
read the phrase just after your highlighted one: 'other options make the carrying out of such a punishment "very rare if practically nonexistent."'
#2265 is applicable for circumstances such as a Policeman killing an armed suspect
about to harm others (assuming there's no other option available).
the last paragraph helps here: the death penalty is inappropriate, given that
the state can lock someone up in such a way as to prevent harm to others.
furthermore, the death penalty implies reprobation, which is incompatible
with Catholic doctrine.
opposition to the death penalty, abortion, euthanasia, & suicide
is a consistent, pro-life position.
if you're interested in Catholicism, contact a priest or a church's director
of religious education.
you're right. that's why mrs. spamela & i
have to look at a politician's entire platform,
background, & character, as other devout Catholics do,
before deciding for whom to vote.
Sex brings about unity, and is also for procreation. It is not solely for procreation, and can be done to unify a couple.
But without contraception, and not in a way that would never lead to a child (ie: anal sex, homosexual sex)
AFAIK.
that leaves out about 98% of forum posters.
(premarital sex & adultery are frowned upon, too, btw)
I always felt this to mean that so long as the identity of the perpetrator is beyond doubt, and so long as the person in question can be trusted to cause no more harm to the community, then you have little recourse as far as the death penalty goes, and must not impose it.
If the person in question cannot be secured to the satisfaction of the community, to ensure that they can never be a harm again, and the person has proven to be without remose, and a habitual or repeat offender, then it still allows the death penalty. A good example would be a chronic jailbreaker, or someone who in the past was jailed for heinous crimes, and after serving the sentence, became a repeat offender. There would be no sufficient guarantee that this particular person would not do it again, and you could not ensure that they would even remain incarcerated. This person has also shown little want for redemption, or absolution. The Catholic Church would likely support the execution of such a threat. This would be rare in the extreme though, so once againfor the most part Capital punishment would be virtually non-existant in practice, though allowed for in theory.
Easy question to answer- "seperation of church and state". It's in the constitution and democrats know the constitution. I'm still trying to figure out what state and which church.
Why do you make it so hard to understand?
Why do you make it so hard to understand?
Haha, I went to a Catholic grammar school, starting in 4th grade, a Catholic high school, and a Catholic (Jesuit) college.
How much of a deeper exposure do you think I need?
I wasn't trolling and I think my point is a valid one: given the church's position on abortion, how can a Catholic support the Democratic party?
If you tell me that you think that politics is more important than your faith, I can understand that. Just don't tell me that you can be a good Catholic and a Democrat, because that would be hypocrisy.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Haha, I went to a Catholic grammar school, starting in 4th grade, a Catholic high school, and a Catholic (Jesuit) college.
How much of a deeper exposure do you think I need?
I wasn't trolling and I think my point is a valid one: given the church's position on abortion, how can a Catholic support the Democratic party?
If you tell me that you think that politics is more important than your faith, I can understand that. Just don't tell me that you can be a good Catholic and a Democrat, because that would be hypocrisy.
As was mentioned before, no political party exactly matches up with religion. By your arguement, I could say that being a Republican an a Catholic is hypocrisy as well. Take Luke 18: 18-25:
Which strongly contradicts the Conservative economic policy. You could argue that we ourselves are not necessarily rich, but you above said that even voting for someone who supports an idea contrary to Catholicism constituted sin.
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