How can you be a Catholic and a Democrat?

[Riprorin]

I'm failing to see the connection between the verse you cite and conservative economic policy. Anyway, how is it apropos to this discussion?

The Catholic church is quite clear on it's condemnation of abortion - there is no room for equivocation.

My question is this: how can a Catholic support a party that is pro-abortion? More specifically how can a Catholic vote for a candidate (John Kerry) who openly supports abortion and voted against a ban on partial birth abortion?

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: ElFenix
this thread smacks of anti catholic trolling

i really think the OP and a few other posters need a deeper exposure to Catholic beliefs.

Haha, I went to a Catholic grammar school, starting in 4th grade, a Catholic high school, and a Catholic (Jesuit) college.

How much of a deeper exposure do you think I need?

I wasn't trolling and I think my point is a valid one: given the church's position on abortion, how can a Catholic support the Democratic party?

If you tell me that you think that politics is more important than your faith, I can understand that. Just don't tell me that you can be a good Catholic and a Democrat, because that would be hypocrisy.

my son-in-law had a Catholic education, too, but it didn't sink in.

the abortion issue is one among MANY that a voter, regardless of religion,
has to consider.

"...because that would be hypocrisy." - millions of Catholic Democrats disagree with your opinion.

as ClueLis and others point out, there are aspects of the Republican platform & attitudes
of some Republican politicans that are antithetical to strongly promulgated
Catholic beliefs, but it would be absurd to assert that
"you can't be a good Catholic and a Republican." for one thing, i know devout Catholics
of both major political parties.

 

[ClueLis]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm failing to see the connection between the verse you cite and conservative economic policy. Anyway, how is it apropos to this discussion?

The Catholic church is quite clear on it's condemnation of abortion - there is no room for equivocation.

My question is this: how can a Catholic support a party that is pro-abortion? More specifically how can a Catholic vote for a candidate (John Kerry) who openly supports abortion and voted against a ban on partial birth abortion?

The conservatives (and, for that matter, moderate democrats) have no problem allowing people to become needlessly rich. The bible is quite clear on it's stance, and it doesn't fall in line with Republican doctrine.

In other words, how can a Catholic support a party that is pro-rich people?

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: ElFenix
this thread smacks of anti catholic trolling

i really think the OP and a few other posters need a deeper exposure to Catholic beliefs.

Haha, I went to a Catholic grammar school, starting in 4th grade, a Catholic high school, and a Catholic (Jesuit) college.

How much of a deeper exposure do you think I need?

I wasn't trolling and I think my point is a valid one: given the church's position on abortion, how can a Catholic support the Democratic party?

If you tell me that you think that politics is more important than your faith, I can understand that. Just don't tell me that you can be a good Catholic and a Democrat, because that would be hypocrisy.

my son-in-law had a Catholic education, too, but it didn't sink in.

the abortion issue is one among MANY that a voter, regardless of religion,
has to consider.

"...because that would be hypocrisy." - millions of Catholic Democrats disagree with your opinion.

as ClueLis and others point out, there are aspects of the Republican platform & attitudes
of some Republican politicans that are antithetical to strongly promulgated
Catholic beliefs, but it would be absurd to assert that
"you can't be a good Catholic and a Republican." for one thing, i know devout Catholics
of both major political parties.

Let's try to stay on topic. I never mentioned Republicans or conservative economic policies, etc. Nice try on obfuscating the issue though.

So if I understand corectly you are going to vote for Kerry who supports abortion and voted against a ban on partial birth abortion, inspite of the fact that the church that you say you follow calls abortion "a moral evil" and "attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life".

That language sounds pretty serious to me.

Perhaps you and the "millions of Catholic Democrats" who agree with you that it's not hypocrtical to claim to be Catholic and yet ignore the churches teachings could be wrong?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: ElFenix
this thread smacks of anti catholic trolling

i really think the OP and a few other posters need a deeper exposure to Catholic beliefs.

Haha, I went to a Catholic grammar school, starting in 4th grade, a Catholic high school, and a Catholic (Jesuit) college.

How much of a deeper exposure do you think I need?

I wasn't trolling and I think my point is a valid one: given the church's position on abortion, how can a Catholic support the Democratic party?

If you tell me that you think that politics is more important than your faith, I can understand that. Just don't tell me that you can be a good Catholic and a Democrat, because that would be hypocrisy.

my son-in-law had a Catholic education, too, but it didn't sink in.

the abortion issue is one among MANY that a voter, regardless of religion,
has to consider.

"...because that would be hypocrisy." - millions of Catholic Democrats disagree with your opinion.

as ClueLis and others point out, there are aspects of the Republican platform & attitudes
of some Republican politicans that are antithetical to strongly promulgated
Catholic beliefs, but it would be absurd to assert that
"you can't be a good Catholic and a Republican." for one thing, i know devout Catholics
of both major political parties.

Let's try to stay on topic. I never mentioned Republicans or conservative economic policies, etc. Nice try on obfuscating the issue though.

So if I understand corectly you are going to vote for Kerry who supports abortion and voted against a ban on partial birth abortion, inspite of the fact that the church that you say you follow calls abortion "a moral evil" and "attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life".

That language sounds pretty serious to me.

Perhaps you and the "millions of Catholic Democrats" who agree with you that it's not hypocrtical to claim to be Catholic and yet ignore the churches teachings could be wrong?

Well any Republican or Democrat Catholic who watches or participates in Sports on Sundays is going against the Popes will and violating the Sabbath

 

[Riprorin]

Well any Republican or Democrat Catholic who watches or participates in Sports on Sundays is going against the Popes will and violating the Sabbath

I don't think you get excommunicated for that though.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Well any Republican or Democrat Catholic who watches or participates in Sports on Sundays is going against the Popes will and violating the Sabbath

I don't think you get excommunicated for that though.

But you could be excommunicated for voting Democrat? Sounds to me like a good reason to justify Seperation of Church from State!

 

[Riprorin]

Here are some Catholics who agree with me:

ELECTION 2004
Catholics confront Kerry on abortion
Protesters meet Democratic candidate at Virginia campaign event

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: February 11, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Demonstrators confronted Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry last night to warn he cannot be a Catholic in good standing and support abortion.

At a campaign event at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., near Washington, the pro-life American Life League rallied sign-waving protesters in an attempt to convince Kerry to "mend his ways," said the group's spokesman, Joseph R. Giganti.

The ALL's Crusade for the Defense of our Catholic Church was responding to recent comments by the Massachusetts senator, whose primary victories last night in Virginia and Tennessee bolstered his commanding lead over Democratic rivals.

Prior to the Missouri primary, the new archbishop of St. Louis, Raymond L. Burke, said if Kerry stood in line for Communion, he would give a blessing but not serve the sacrament. Also, the archbishop of Kerry's Boston diocese, Sean O'Malley, has urged Catholic elected officials to voluntarily not receive Communion, though he has not banned priests from giving it.

Kim Molstre, a Kerry campaign spokeswoman, told the St. Louis Dispatch Jan. 30 Burke "has the right to deny Communion to whoever he wants, but Senator Kerry respectfully disagrees with him on the issue of choice."

In an interview last month in St. Louis, Kerry said "what I believe personally as a Catholic as an article of faith is an article of faith." But as a public official, he said, it was not "appropriate in the United States for a legislator to legislate personal religious beliefs for the rest of the country."

Joseph M. Starrs, director of ALL's Crusade, said Kerry's comments to the Dispatch and other media outlets "show that he knows it is wrong for Catholics to support abortion."

Catholic Church teaching on this point is non-negotiable," Starrs said. "Supporting abortion can place a Catholic in a state of mortal sin. For Kerry to openly support abortion causes grave scandal among the faithful."

Starrs asserted, "No matter how he tries to spin it, with the tired old mantra that he is 'personally pro-life, but publicly for choice,' it does not change the simple fact that you cannot be a Catholic in good standing and pro-abortion."

At the very least, he said, Kerry should heed Bishop O'Malley and not present himself for Holy Communion until he recants his position.

"Kerry also made public statements recently to the effect that surviving the Vietnam War taught him that he should always do the right thing, no matter how unpopular that might be," Starrs said. "Protecting and preserving the civil rights of all Americans, born and preborn, is always the right thing to do. We hope Sen. Kerry will recognize that."

As the demonstrators waited for Kerry to appear last night, Giganti told WND his group had handed out well over 100 signs.

"We've had quite a positive response," he said.

He said his group is a non-partisan, non-profit group and cannot get involved in political debate. Its focus is civil rights.

"The most fundamental is the right to life," he said. "We want to see that civil right protected for all Americans, all human beings, no matter who they are."

Link

 

[ClueLis]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: ElFenix
this thread smacks of anti catholic trolling

i really think the OP and a few other posters need a deeper exposure to Catholic beliefs.

Haha, I went to a Catholic grammar school, starting in 4th grade, a Catholic high school, and a Catholic (Jesuit) college.

How much of a deeper exposure do you think I need?

I wasn't trolling and I think my point is a valid one: given the church's position on abortion, how can a Catholic support the Democratic party?

If you tell me that you think that politics is more important than your faith, I can understand that. Just don't tell me that you can be a good Catholic and a Democrat, because that would be hypocrisy.

my son-in-law had a Catholic education, too, but it didn't sink in.

the abortion issue is one among MANY that a voter, regardless of religion,
has to consider.

"...because that would be hypocrisy." - millions of Catholic Democrats disagree with your opinion.

as ClueLis and others point out, there are aspects of the Republican platform & attitudes
of some Republican politicans that are antithetical to strongly promulgated
Catholic beliefs, but it would be absurd to assert that
"you can't be a good Catholic and a Republican." for one thing, i know devout Catholics
of both major political parties.

Let's try to stay on topic. I never mentioned Republicans or conservative economic policies, etc. Nice try on obfuscating the issue though.

So if I understand corectly you are going to vote for Kerry who supports abortion and voted against a ban on partial birth abortion, inspite of the fact that the church that you say you follow calls abortion "a moral evil" and "attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life".

That language sounds pretty serious to me.

Perhaps you and the "millions of Catholic Democrats" who agree with you that it's not hypocrtical to claim to be Catholic and yet ignore the churches teachings could be wrong?

I don't feel I was altering the topic. If you are going to criticize the Democrats and Kerry, you are essentially implying that there is someone else that Catholics should vote for, and the obvious reponse would be Republicans (although you could suggest Libertarians as well, but they are pro-choice). As I see it, there is only one type of government that would approach fitting Catholicism as a perfect match: a government that is both socially conservative and socialist. I have yet to see a large political movement in that direction, though...

On a side note, I am not religious, so I will admit that I have a bit of an outsider's viewpoint on this.

 

[Red Dawn]

Kerry supports the Womens right to choose. Doesn't your supposed God give his children Free Will? Well Kerry is just letting women exercise that Free Will. He isn't telling them to have an abortion.

 

[Sophia]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
My question is this: how can a Catholic support a party that is pro-abortion? More specifically how can a Catholic vote for a candidate (John Kerry) who openly supports abortion and voted against a ban on partial birth abortion?

Perhaps more importantly, how can Mr. Kerry claim to BE Catholic yet vote as you indicate?

But back to the original question,

Catholic Answers proposes that there are five non-negotiable issues for Catholics "because they concern actions that are always morally wrong and must never be promoted by the law.":
1. Abortion
2. Euthanasia
3. Fetal Stem Cell Research
4. Human Cloning
5. Homosexual Marriage

The article also argues that these issues are of such significant importance that they should rule out a candidate who may be "right" on everything else but one of the five.

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: ElFenix
this thread smacks of anti catholic trolling

i really think the OP and a few other posters need a deeper exposure to Catholic beliefs.

Haha, I went to a Catholic grammar school, starting in 4th grade, a Catholic high school, and a Catholic (Jesuit) college.

How much of a deeper exposure do you think I need?

I wasn't trolling and I think my point is a valid one: given the church's position on abortion, how can a Catholic support the Democratic party?

If you tell me that you think that politics is more important than your faith, I can understand that. Just don't tell me that you can be a good Catholic and a Democrat, because that would be hypocrisy.

my son-in-law had a Catholic education, too, but it didn't sink in.

the abortion issue is one among MANY that a voter, regardless of religion,
has to consider.

"...because that would be hypocrisy." - millions of Catholic Democrats disagree with your opinion.

as ClueLis and others point out, there are aspects of the Republican platform & attitudes
of some Republican politicans that are antithetical to strongly promulgated
Catholic beliefs, but it would be absurd to assert that
"you can't be a good Catholic and a Republican." for one thing, i know devout Catholics
of both major political parties.

Let's try to stay on topic. I never mentioned Republicans or conservative economic policies, etc. Nice try on obfuscating the issue though.

So if I understand corectly you are going to vote for Kerry who supports abortion and voted against a ban on partial birth abortion, inspite of the fact that the church that you say you follow calls abortion "a moral evil" and "attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life".

That language sounds pretty serious to me.

Perhaps you and the "millions of Catholic Democrats" who agree with you that it's not hypocrtical to claim to be Catholic and yet ignore the churches teachings could be wrong?

wrong? we do realize the world is complex and you have to make tough decisions &
we've discussed this very issue at my (Catholic) church in large groups.

i don't like kerry's stand on abortion (and being pro-CHOICE is not the same as
being pro-ABORTION), but there's much more for me not to like about Bush.

should i vote for pro-life candidates who are also incompetent boobs and hostile to the poor?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: ElFenix
this thread smacks of anti catholic trolling

i really think the OP and a few other posters need a deeper exposure to Catholic beliefs.

Haha, I went to a Catholic grammar school, starting in 4th grade, a Catholic high school, and a Catholic (Jesuit) college.

How much of a deeper exposure do you think I need?

I wasn't trolling and I think my point is a valid one: given the church's position on abortion, how can a Catholic support the Democratic party?

If you tell me that you think that politics is more important than your faith, I can understand that. Just don't tell me that you can be a good Catholic and a Democrat, because that would be hypocrisy.

my son-in-law had a Catholic education, too, but it didn't sink in.

the abortion issue is one among MANY that a voter, regardless of religion,
has to consider.

"...because that would be hypocrisy." - millions of Catholic Democrats disagree with your opinion.

as ClueLis and others point out, there are aspects of the Republican platform & attitudes
of some Republican politicans that are antithetical to strongly promulgated
Catholic beliefs, but it would be absurd to assert that
"you can't be a good Catholic and a Republican." for one thing, i know devout Catholics
of both major political parties.

Let's try to stay on topic. I never mentioned Republicans or conservative economic policies, etc. Nice try on obfuscating the issue though.

So if I understand corectly you are going to vote for Kerry who supports abortion and voted against a ban on partial birth abortion, inspite of the fact that the church that you say you follow calls abortion "a moral evil" and "attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life".

That language sounds pretty serious to me.

Perhaps you and the "millions of Catholic Democrats" who agree with you that it's not hypocrtical to claim to be Catholic and yet ignore the churches teachings could be wrong?

wrong? we do realize the world is complex and you have to make tough decisions &
we've discussed this very issue at my (Catholic) church in large groups.

i don't like kerry's stand on abortion (and being pro-CHOICE is not the same as
being pro-ABORTION), but there's much more for me not to like about Bush.

should i vote for pro-life candidates who are also incompetent boobs and hostile to the poor?

How Christian is it to accept the death of innocents as necessary collateral damage ? Our government (all governments) accept that when waging war.

 

[Riprorin]

If you are a Catholic and a Democrat, I would encourage you to investigate this organization:

Democrats for Life

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
If you are a Catholic and a Democrat, I would encourage you to investigate this organization:

Democrats for Life

You are not even a Catholic, just a hysterical Bush Supporter looking for any angle you can find to try and find a way to dissuade other to not vote for Kerry. Whats the matter Rip, you don't think his record of Flip Flopping will do the trick or are you afraid that the Dub's incompetance as President over the last 4 years might do him in?

 

[Riprorin]

should i vote for pro-life candidates who are also incompetent boobs and hostile to the poor?

Whether someone is an "incompetent boob" or "hostile to the poor" is a matter of debate.

Whether or not someone is pro-life or pro-choice is pretty cut and dry.

However, if you want to be a good Catholic, the answer to your question is "yes".

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

should i vote for pro-life candidates who are also incompetent boobs and hostile to the poor?

Whether someone is an "incompetent boob" or "hostile to the poor" is a matter of debate.

Whether or not someone is pro-life or pro-choice is pretty cut and dry.

However, if you want to be a good Catholic, the answer to your question is "yes".

Since you aren't Catholic how in hell would you know what a good Catholic is? Based on the rantings of an extremist Catholic Group?

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Riprorin
If you are a Catholic and a Democrat, I would encourage you to investigate this organization:

Democrats for Life

You are not even a Catholic, just a hysterical Bush Supporter looking for any angle you can find to try and find a way to dissuade other to not vote for Kerry. Whats the matter Rip, you don't think his record of Flip Flopping will do the trick or are you afraid that the Dub's incompetance as President over the last 4 years might do him in?

Personally, I think that Kerry's flip-flops and liberal voting record will trump Bush's "incompetence".

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Riprorin
If you are a Catholic and a Democrat, I would encourage you to investigate this organization:

Democrats for Life

You are not even a Catholic, just a hysterical Bush Supporter looking for any angle you can find to try and find a way to dissuade other to not vote for Kerry. Whats the matter Rip, you don't think his record of Flip Flopping will do the trick or are you afraid that the Dub's incompetance as President over the last 4 years might do him in?

Personally, I think that Kerry's flip-flops and liberal voting record will trump Bush's "incompetence".

:beer:

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Riprorin

should i vote for pro-life candidates who are also incompetent boobs and hostile to the poor?

Whether someone is an "incompetent boob" or "hostile to the poor" is a matter of debate.

Whether or not someone is pro-life or pro-choice is pretty cut and dry.

However, if you want to be a good Catholic, the answer to your question is "yes".

Since you aren't Catholic how in hell would you know what a good Catholic is? Based on the rantings of an extremist Catholic Group?

Based on my reading of the church's catachismic teachings. It's posted above if you want to take a look at it. The "rantings" of the "extremist Catholic gorup" appears to be consistent with the church's official teachings.

 

[0roo0roo]

funny considering the church didn't always have a ban on abortion. just as it didn't always think that priests should be celebate. its all political. and frankly disgusting. republicans claiming their view of god and religion as the only one. that somehow god is a republican.

exactly as the taliban and their ilk claimed islam as their own, and claimed all others who disagreed infidels, then proceeded to legislate their beliefs on all.

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: Riprorin

should i vote for pro-life candidates who are also incompetent boobs and hostile to the poor?

Whether someone is an "incompetent boob" or "hostile to the poor" is a matter of debate.

Whether or not someone is pro-life or pro-choice is pretty cut and dry.

However, if you want to be a good Catholic, the answer to your question is "yes".

you, apparently, are a 1 issue voter & must feel frustrated that others don't
see eye-to-eye with you.

i agree somewhat with Red Dawn on this one.
if you aren't even Catholic, then it's a little funny that you're trying
to proclaim who's a good one & who isn't.

 

[Riprorin]

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: Riprorin

should i vote for pro-life candidates who are also incompetent boobs and hostile to the poor?

Whether someone is an "incompetent boob" or "hostile to the poor" is a matter of debate.

Whether or not someone is pro-life or pro-choice is pretty cut and dry.

However, if you want to be a good Catholic, the answer to your question is "yes".

you, apparently, are a 1 issue voter & must feel frustrated that others don't
see eye-to-eye with you.

i agree somewhat with Red Dawn on this one.
if you aren't even Catholic, then it's a little funny that you're trying
to proclaim who's a good one & who isn't.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. If you want to ignore your church's teachings, that's your choice. I'm just pointing about the hypocrisy as have others who are within the church.

Are you telling me that you can disregard the church's teaching and be a good Catholic?

I think that this quote from the article I posted says it well:

Joseph M. Starrs, director of ALL's Crusade, said Kerry's comments to the Dispatch and other media outlets "show that he knows it is wrong for Catholics to support abortion."

Catholic Church teaching on this point is non-negotiable," Starrs said. "Supporting abortion can place a Catholic in a state of mortal sin. For Kerry to openly support abortion causes grave scandal among the faithful."

Starrs asserted, "No matter how he tries to spin it, with the tired old mantra that he is 'personally pro-life, but publicly for choice,' it does not change the simple fact that you cannot be a Catholic in good standing and pro-abortion."

Doesn't supporting a pro-abortion candidate make you pro-abortion?

Personally attacking me ("if you aren't even Catholic, then it's a little funny that you're trying to proclaim who's a good one & who isn't") doesn't make the issue go away.

 

[Zephyr106]

Riprorin, you are not a Catholic, therefore your interference in the internal affairs of the Catholic Church are not only uncalled for, but actually blasphemous to God. I encourage you to cease your heresy before you commit Unforgivable Sin.

Zephyr

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
I'm failing to see the connection between the verse you cite and conservative economic policy. Anyway, how is it apropos to this discussion?

The Catholic church is quite clear on it's condemnation of abortion - there is no room for equivocation.

My question is this: how can a Catholic support a party that is pro-abortion? More specifically how can a Catholic vote for a candidate (John Kerry) who openly supports abortion and voted against a ban on partial birth abortion?

Bush openly supports the death penalty;

neither party actually believes in the sanctity of human life.

i personally wouldn't vote for an abortionist , even if i have to vote for a convict-killer.

the simple fact that you cannot be a Catholic in good standing and pro-abortion

you can be anti-abortion and vote Dem, just as you can be anti-death penalty and vote rep.