how can we rid society of unions?

[cubby1223]

While there are times when unions are beneficial to the safety of the employees, they have gone entirely too far in their protection of workers against firing, to guarantee unsustainable benefits, raises, pensions, etc. Then the union bosses go out and use their "weight" for purely political reasons that have little to do with the workers of the union.

Workplace safety is one thing, but when they threaten the future of the country, especially the public sector unions, this is absolute insanity. Who's organizing the riots in Greece? Unions. Who's organizing the rallies against the AZ illegal immigration bill? Unions. Who's bussing hordes of people to riot outside of individuals' homes for no other reason than they hold a job at a bank they don't like? Unions.

 

[CitizenKain]

SO the workers and management found away to make some changes? That's impressive. Sort of how it works in non-unionized plants and jobs.

Do you think the changes would stick if it wasn't for the union? Would you be able to force the company to make the safety changes stick?

Workplace safety is one thing, but when they threaten the future of the country, especially the public sector unions, this is absolute insanity. Who's organizing the riots in Greece? Unions. Who's organizing the rallies against the AZ illegal immigration bill? Unions. Who's bussing hordes of people to riot outside of individuals' homes for no other reason than they hold a job at a bank they don't like? Unions

So?

 

[Naeeldar]

Do you think the changes would stick if it wasn't for the union? Would you be able to force the company to make the safety changes stick?



So?

Yes I do. Again 90% of workers in the US are not covered by Unions. I want an answer on how the majority of poplation gets by without unions.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

The union I am in has impacted the safety regulations at our plant as well as management has impacted safety regulations. They both have worked together to make our place a safer working environment. Thank you, try again.

I enjoy my union and I enjoy the company where I work.

what kind of work do you do?

 

[Adrenaline]

what kind of work do you do?

I work in an oil refinery. The company that owns us now has been very very good to us from what I see. Our union and company get along well with each other.

 

[Adrenaline]

SO the workers and management found away to make some changes?

If someone has a safety suggestion, it is always listened to by both sides and then goes from there.

 

[Naeeldar]

If someone has a safety suggestion, it is always listened to by both sides and then goes from there.

That happens in any business as a general discussion. Bussiness will make safety changes typically on the simple fact that lawsuits are pricey.

Now that said there are a few industries out there that do need more oversight then a typical job. Drilling/Mining are two that come to mind. But that's more the govt then anything else.

If there was no union what makes you think the company wouldn't listen to safety suggestions?

 

[CitizenKain]

If there was no union what makes you think the company wouldn't listen to safety suggestions?

Because it would cost them money, and if employees had problems about they'd fire them.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Because it would cost them money, and if employees had problems about they'd fire them.

then they would have no employees.

or a competitor could set up a shop with good pay and safety practices and you'd see all the workers line up to work there instead.
the beauty of a free market.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

then they would have no employees.

or a competitor could set up a shop with good pay and safety practices and you'd see all the workers line up to work there instead.
the beauty of a free market.

Lets use mining for an example. How would a competitor be able to setup shop when the other company has contracts/full rights to the land? Workers wouldn't complain about their working condition because there would be nowhere else for them to go if they were to be fired.

I too used to believe completely unregulated free market was the answer to everything. Then I woke up when I saw how Wall Street took advantage of that.

 

[Adrenaline]

That happens in any business as a general discussion. Bussiness will make safety changes typically on the simple fact that lawsuits are pricey.

Now that said there are a few industries out there that do need more oversight then a typical job. Drilling/Mining are two that come to mind. But that's more the govt then anything else.

If there was no union what makes you think the company wouldn't listen to safety suggestions?

You asked the question and I answered it. Management and the union make safety the top priority, they listen to every suggestion for safety at my job.

 

[MJinZ]

You're stupid, I hope you are ok with being told that. I'm sure a lazy office drone like yourself believes you are taking risks and innovating, you aren't, but you can believe that.
I'm not sure how paying someone who is digging rocks thousands of feet below the earth's surface in dangerous conditions a decent wage means that lazy people like you are prevented from having a job.



Hahahahahahaahah. Oh my, people believe that. "This large company wouldn't possibly cut safety regulations to save money, despite that it happens all the time, I also like to sniff farts."

If I'm stupid, the rest of are you patently retarded. This is fact.

 

[MJinZ]

Says you.

Says $150K is a fucking upper-class household income dumbass.

If you think being a retarded robot with the sole purpose of putting on bolts and nuts gets you in the realm of the world's rich, we got a big fucking problem in this little world of yours.

 

[Brainonska511]

Says $150K is a fucking upper-class household income dumbass.

If you think being a retarded robot with the sole purpose of putting on bolts and nuts gets you in the realm of the world's rich, we got a big fucking problem in this little world of yours.

$150k upper class household? LOL.

 

[Darwin333]

You admit that the conditions for the working class improved because of unions, but you're making the assumption that conditions would continue to be good in their absence.

That is because unions have very little to do with workplace safety today. You see, the government created this little agency called OSHA that regulates workplace safety now and they carry a big ass stick. They litterally put companies out of business due to the fines they levy for unsafe workplaces. I have to send my guys to yearly training seminars just to keep up with the OSHA rules (which is very different from the actual safety training I provide).

I'm not so sure that improving working conditions for working class employees is a one way transformation, that once unions made things better, their job is done and they are no longer needed. Because the people who would like working conditions to be otherwise have NOT disappeared, and while the government has done a great job making sure workers are protected, continued support for that policy comes in no small part because of the political power of unions.

So your argument is that the government will disband OSHA (and basically give up power, something it so OFTEN does) AND give up the revenue it generates from the very large fines it hands out? That has got to be the worst argument ever for the existence of unions.

I think it's naive to assume that workers will be just fine if they lose their power while corporations maintain theirs.

My argument is based on the premise of a balance of power, something that we currently lack with the tactics unions are allowed to get away with. I have come across plenty of good unions that provide a great service to its members but the bad outweighs the good by far.

 

[sandorski]

Says $150K is a fucking upper-class household income dumbass.

If you think being a retarded robot with the sole purpose of putting on bolts and nuts gets you in the realm of the world's rich, we got a big fucking problem in this little world of yours.

You have a point?

 

[Darwin333]

That happens in any business as a general discussion. Bussiness will make safety changes typically on the simple fact that lawsuits are pricey.

Now that said there are a few industries out there that do need more oversight then a typical job. Drilling/Mining are two that come to mind. But that's more the govt then anything else.

If there was no union what makes you think the company wouldn't listen to safety suggestions?

OSHA fines.

 

[Red Dawn]

If I'm stupid, the rest of are you patently retarded. This is fact.

You're not stupid, you just can't see from the vantage point of your lower intestinal tract were that festering gob you call a head is planted.

 

[SirStev0]

OSHA fines.

In 2009, the company, Massey Energy, was fined a total of $382,000 for "serious" unrepentant violations for lacking ventilation and proper equipment plans as well as failing to utilize its safety plan properly.[18] In the previous month, the authorities cited the mine for 57 safety infractions.[19] The mine received two citations the day before the explosion and in the last five years has been cited for 1,342 safety violations.



Really helped here. Those 29 miners really benefited from all those citations.

 

[Zebo]

Says $150K is a fucking upper-class household income dumbass.

If you think being a retarded robot with the sole purpose of putting on bolts and nuts gets you in the realm of the world's rich, we got a big fucking problem in this little world of yours.

You're paid what you're worth. Take less, get less. Take more get more.

More succinctly for all the simpletons, everyone gets paid only what the company needs to pay based on what the workers will work for and banding together entitles more leverage. Only a fool does not see this. And an even bigger fool thinks they should go it alone probably like you and why you're upset with those "retards" who have solidarity and make more than U. You're a coward essentially.

*disclaimer only in a union 8 months as a kid (culinary workers) loved it.

 

[werepossum]

You're not stupid, you just can't see from the vantage point of your lower intestinal tract were that festering gob you call a head is planted.

+! for using "festering gob" in a sentence.

 

[Darwin333]

Do you think the changes would stick if it wasn't for the union? Would you be able to force the company to make the safety changes stick?

OSHA makes a whole lotta money making sure the safety changes stick and they carry a bigger stick than the unions, so to answer your question, yes.


True story: I paid a $5,000 fine because one of my guys did not have his safety belt on while he was on the forklift. Perfectly reasonable right? Except my guy was eating lunch (not a lot of comfortable places to sit and eat at a construction site), the foreman had the keys so the forklift was not operational at the time and to top it off the lift had a flat tire! The OSHA inspector knew all of this and his OWN pictures prove it but the rules are the rules and OSHA isn't leaving empty handed.

So how much safer do you want it than a man being required to have a seat belt on while eating lunch in a vehicle that he has no intention of operating and the vehicle is actually inoperable at the time that he was eating his lunch in it?

 

[SirStev0]

OSHA makes a whole lotta money making sure the safety changes stick and they carry a bigger stick than the unions, so to answer your question, yes.


True story: I paid a $5,000 fine because one of my guys did not have his safety belt on while he was on the forklift. Perfectly reasonable right? Except my guy was eating lunch (not a lot of comfortable places to sit and eat at a construction site), the foreman had the keys so the forklift was not operational at the time and to top it off the lift had a flat tire! The OSHA inspector knew all of this and his OWN pictures prove it but the rules are the rules and OSHA isn't leaving empty handed.

So how much safer do you want it than a man being required to have a seat belt on while eating lunch in a vehicle that he has no intention of operating and the vehicle is actually inoperable at the time that he was eating his lunch in it?

In 2009, the company, Massey Energy, was fined a total of $382,000 for "serious" unrepentant violations for lacking ventilation and proper equipment plans as well as failing to utilize its safety plan properly.[18] In the previous month, the authorities cited the mine for 57 safety infractions.[19] The mine received two citations the day before the explosion and in the last five years has been cited for 1,342 safety violations.

In case you missed it. 2 days. 2 fucking days before it happened. This isn't some bumblefuck operation. It is one of the major coal companies in the US. From wiki: By revenue, it is the fourth largest producer of coal in the United States and the largest coal producer in Central Appalachia.

People are desperate for work. That is like catnip for these robber barons.
Revenue $2.69 billion (12-31-09) [1] Net income $104.4 million (12-31-09)


Think 29 workers and a couple safety fines is anything more than a dribble in the bucket.

 

[Darwin333]

In 2009, the company, Massey Energy, was fined a total of $382,000 for "serious" unrepentant violations for lacking ventilation and proper equipment plans as well as failing to utilize its safety plan properly.[18] In the previous month, the authorities cited the mine for 57 safety infractions.[19] The mine received two citations the day before the explosion and in the last five years has been cited for 1,342 safety violations.



Really helped here. Those 29 miners really benefited from all those citations.

Anger is rising that Massey Energy and its CEO, Don Blankenship, are among the most arrogant scofflaws in the mining industry, flouting federal safety mining laws, and aggressively challenging thousands of MSHA safety and health citations.

Another favorite topic of mine, fix the bullshit on the GOVERNMENTS side that allows rich assholes with insanely expensive lawyers from skirting laws that I must abide by.

Sounds like OSHA did its job but since the assholes spent a ton on lawyers they got away with stuff they should not have. Instead of the law(makers) spending so much time giving the unions more rights than the company/owner how about you enforce the laws ya already got and make the enforcement of the rules/law equal regardless of how good your lawyers are? The competitor of mine that went out of business due to OSHA fines got hit harder than that with a mere 10 serious infractions.

 

[SirStev0]

Another favorite topic of mine, fix the bullshit on the GOVERNMENTS side that allows rich assholes with insanely expensive lawyers from skirting laws that I must abide by.

Sounds like OSHA did its job but since the assholes spent a ton on lawyers they got away with stuff they should not have. Instead of the law(makers) spending so much time giving the unions more rights than the company/owner how about you enforce the laws ya already got and make the enforcement of the rules/law equal regardless of how good your lawyers are? The competitor of mine that went out of business due to OSHA fines got hit harder than that with a mere 10 serious infractions.

He actually skipped the paying for lawyers and went straight for the judge.

Showing Blankenship on vacation in Monaco with West Virginia Supreme Court Justice Elliott "Spike" Maynard.