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How can I speed up this crutch best? (Celeron J1800)

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tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,363
641
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Wow.... I opted for the J1900 for my torrent server. I would not use a J1800 as a daily driver for anything other than web browsing.
 

Torn Mind

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2012
4,893
438
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Wow.... I opted for the J1900 for my torrent server. I would not use a J1800 as a daily driver for anything other than web browsing.
I would not use Atom anything as a daily driver, even with Bay Trail improvements. Their single-core performance is likely that of a Core Duo, not even 1st gen Core 2, since the old netbook Atoms were basically Pentium 4s.

I would also set the minimum processor state to 100% or disable Speedstep, they are so sorely lacking in performance.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,252
5,373
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You may get away with passive on Atom. But Kabini needs active. A fan is also cheaper than a big passive heatsink so.... :)
Not all Kabini products require active cooling.

Do the small core CPUs even need a fan? I'm guessing the savings for the OEMs are fairly substantial, less money for the CPU and the cooling solution, cheaper mobo since it's a SoC.
The big savings come from the high level of integration, whether you have passive or active cooling does little to improve cost or power usage for that matter. The active cooling solution may actually end up both cheaper and more energy efficient for systems under constant load. Other setups may favor passive heat sinks.

If I were to use a Bay Trail board to make a home server or HTPC, I would still make sure the case has some degree of active ventilation (case fan at low RPM for example).
 

grimpr

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2007
1,098
7
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You'all are making me feel bad I built some ITX rigs using AM1 3850 Sempron quad-core 1.3Ghz APUs. They overclock mostly successfully to 1.65Ghz, and at that frequency they're "bearable" in Linux Mint for web browsing, but when overclocked, the DVD drive doesn't work. So I had to down-clock them.

I haven't found any customers for them yet. They cost me roughly $200 ea to build, including an SSD and 4GB of DDR3.

Sigh. No wonder those APUs were marked down to $19.99.

Edit: I could pull the AM1 ITX boards and replace them with Haswell ITX boards. I have several, and a few unopened G3258 CPUs. Hmm.
I use only Celerons with SSDs, 4gb of ram and Windows 10 UEFI installs, boots very fast and make cheap and responsive systems.
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
2,543
100
106
Do the small core CPUs even need a fan? I'm guessing the savings for the OEMs are fairly substantial, less money for the CPU and the cooling solution, cheaper mobo since it's a SoC.
Yup... Even small cores are needing a fan if you don't want to end it throttling.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,363
641
121
I would not use Atom anything as a daily driver, even with Bay Trail improvements. Their single-core performance is likely that of a Core Duo, not even 1st gen Core 2, since the old netbook Atoms were basically Pentium 4s.

I would also set the minimum processor state to 100% or disable Speedstep, they are so sorely lacking in performance.
Bad wording, I meant it should be a web browsing processor at best. For like a Tablet/small netbook. Even then, I'd opt for the J1900 as that can at least do the job as I've used it for web browsing. That's the daily job it's for.

It should NOT be your main computing source. J1900 is meant for dedicated tasks, and for like pleasure web browsing. It's probably more powerful than the Atom tablet I'm going to get, but it's strictly for web browsing during sports games/remote/reading device.

It's a tablet level processor, you should be thinking tablet level tasks on it.

Do the small core CPUs even need a fan? I'm guessing the savings for the OEMs are fairly substantial, less money for the CPU and the cooling solution, cheaper mobo since it's a SoC.
They're fanless. Just look one up lol. J1800/J1900 are fanless.
It's why I bought them over the AMD competitor at the time. They're ULTRA low power processors that are literally like tablet level.

The server I ended up building with the J1900 was stupidly cheap, and works great. Silent, no moving parts, I'm happy with it.
 
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coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,252
5,373
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The server I ended up building with the J1900 was stupidly cheap, and works great. Silent, no moving parts, I'm happy with it.
How much storage do you have on that server if it has no moving parts?
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,613
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If I were to use a Bay Trail board to make a home server or HTPC
Ew, no way. Bay Trail doesn't have enough CPU power to transcode video from a server, nor does it have enough single-threaded power to deliver a great GUI experience on a HTPC.

Hell my best HTPC with every MadVR trick running uses 60% of both cores on a G3258 at 4.5GHz to play 1080p Blu Rays. An Atom would be eaten alive.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,252
5,373
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Ew, no way. Bay Trail doesn't have enough CPU power to transcode video from a server, nor does it have enough single-threaded power to deliver a great GUI experience on a HTPC.

Hell my best HTPC with every MadVR trick running uses 60% of both cores on a G3258 at 4.5GHz to play 1080p Blu Rays. An Atom would be eaten alive.
It's your choice of software and functionality. Don't behave like everyone must abide to it.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,613
315
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It's your choice of software and functionality. Don't behave like everyone must abide to it.
Agreed, I don't think everyone using a HTPC is going to use Madvr. That would be crazy. It is more about relative value.

For a HTPC I would MUCH prefer a big core celeron for probably the same price to get the maximum benefit possible for the GUI. From what I have seen Bay Trail NUCs cost about the same as big core celeron ones and every major piece of HTPC software out there has a GUI dependant on single core speeds.

For a server I would much rather some multi core AMD or even an older CPU for the same price. For what a Bay Trail system costs you could get easily get enough real cores with an older CPU that it could transcode properly. If you don't need transcoding something on an AMD platform could do it cheaper than Bay Trail.

So basically what I am saying is Bay Trail does NOT provide any real advantage for HTPCs or home servers. Maybe some other segment like mobile devices or stick computers benefit, but for HTPCs and servers you can do better.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,363
641
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How much storage do you have on that server if it has no moving parts?
It's a torrent server so it has 1 ssd and that's it.

The storage server of course has moving parts I'm not insane lol. Only 40 tb though. I need to double my storage before I'm happy.

I use the cheapest celeron for my storage server. If zen had a cheap 8 core 16 thread option I'll upgrade it to that and use unraids virtualization features to run an extra windows vm or two for steam link streaming
 
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tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,363
641
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Ew, no way. Bay Trail doesn't have enough CPU power to transcode video from a server, nor does it have enough single-threaded power to deliver a great GUI experience on a HTPC.

Hell my best HTPC with every MadVR trick running uses 60% of both cores on a G3258 at 4.5GHz to play 1080p Blu Rays. An Atom would be eaten alive.
You're using madvr. Otherwise, it's fast enough for the gui and to play videos.

Obviously if you use a high end video player things change

My baytrail pc was stupid cheap.

Intel compute sticks are now 120 or so. So ya, I'm still on board the atom train as Intel has continued to use atom to push themselves into smaller form factors.

Maybe if I was sensitive and needed madvr I'd care, but I use kodi on my phone fine. Baytrail is obviously faster than my phone processor and I'm happy with it
 
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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,613
315
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You're using madvr. Otherwise, it's fast enough for the gui and to play videos.
Sure. I mean a $30 Pi 1 could just play video. My point is that for the money you can get a HTPC that is better if you chose large core Celeron instead.

Those Atom CPUs (much like most ARM CPUs) can stutter in the GUI like crazy on a large library in Kodi for example. I know for a fact my overclocked ION2 boxes cannot take my library as it is, they only work when a better machine is hosting that library via MySQL. My big core Celeron Chromeboxes can easily handle my library without MySQL, and they cost the same as any Bay Trail NUC. And it isn't just Kodi. WMC likes big cores, jRiver likes big cores, hell even Plex Home Theater likes big cores.

Getting the most for your money is the name of the game.

My baytrail pc was stupid cheap.
Hey I feel ya, a deal is a deal.

As Anand always said, there are no bad products only bad prices.

If you can get Bay Trail for way less than big core Celeron then why not. Something is better than nothing.
 

waltchan

Senior member
Feb 27, 2015
846
8
81
I think I'll pay $450 with a Celeron G470 instead, which was the last-year CPU of J1800.
 

dealcorn

Senior member
May 28, 2011
247
4
76
I ran a Gigabyte J1800N-DH2 motherboard (j1800) with SSD and 4GB DRAM 24/7 using an XFCE4 desktop on Debian 8 for a year+ and it was delightful. I cheated by reading Anand's initial review of Atom where he hinted that only an idiot would run a heavy O/S like Windows on Atom. For my target use case of video consumption (not creation), web browsing, P2P daemon, lightweight server roles (dns/dhcp/firewall with NAT), and linux kernel compilation, it was a good solution given the ~$70 cost and power consumption. It did take a while for the linux graphics driver to get sorted out and UEFI installation was initially challenging. I erred and let a power surge trash the motherboard and I currently await delivery of a Supermicro X11SBA-LN4F (Celeron n3700 quad core w/ 4 Intel NIC's). Patrick over at Servethehome kinda touts the board and characterizes it as "sweet" but he speaks to a minority niche of knowledgeable users. http://www.servethehome.com/supermicro-x11sba-ln4f-review

I appreciate the concern that some folks are not smart enough to know how to spend their money. On the other hand, there is no shortage of resources available on the Web to assist in making an informed decision. I do not appreciate the suggestion that knowledgeable folks should be deprived of the opportunity to make good decisions because some folks are dumb.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,363
641
121
Sure. I mean a $30 Pi 1 could just play video. My point is that for the money you can get a HTPC that is better if you chose large core Celeron instead.

Those Atom CPUs (much like most ARM CPUs) can stutter in the GUI like crazy on a large library in Kodi for example. I know for a fact my overclocked ION2 boxes cannot take my library as it is, they only work when a better machine is hosting that library via MySQL. My big core Celeron Chromeboxes can easily handle my library without MySQL, and they cost the same as any Bay Trail NUC. And it isn't just Kodi. WMC likes big cores, jRiver likes big cores, hell even Plex Home Theater likes big cores.

Getting the most for your money is the name of the game.



Hey I feel ya, a deal is a deal.

As Anand always said, there are no bad products only bad prices.

If you can get Bay Trail for way less than big core Celeron then why not. Something is better than nothing.
Not saying I don't agree with you by the way. Celeron is better for Kodi/everything usually for the money. I always am of the sentiment, buy what you NEED. Don't try and skimp out a little (which is what Baytrail is).

Also, I've been running Linux on my Bay Trail machine, so like the user above said, it's probably even worse for Windows users.


I ran a Gigabyte J1800N-DH2 motherboard (j1800) with SSD and 4GB DRAM 24/7 using an XFCE4 desktop on Debian 8 for a year+ and it was delightful. I cheated by reading Anand's initial review of Atom where he hinted that only an idiot would run a heavy O/S like Windows on Atom. For my target use case of video consumption (not creation), web browsing, P2P daemon, lightweight server roles (dns/dhcp/firewall with NAT), and linux kernel compilation, it was a good solution given the ~$70 cost and power consumption. It did take a while for the linux graphics driver to get sorted out and UEFI installation was initially challenging. I erred and let a power surge trash the motherboard and I currently await delivery of a Supermicro X11SBA-LN4F (Celeron n3700 quad core w/ 4 Intel NIC's). Patrick over at Servethehome kinda touts the board and characterizes it as "sweet" but he speaks to a minority niche of knowledgeable users. http://www.servethehome.com/supermicro-x11sba-ln4f-review

I appreciate the concern that some folks are not smart enough to know how to spend their money. On the other hand, there is no shortage of resources available on the Web to assist in making an informed decision. I do not appreciate the suggestion that knowledgeable folks should be deprived of the opportunity to make good decisions because some folks are dumb.
Ya, I am surprised you took the J1800 though. But I agree, as long as you know the EXACT task a pc is doing, buy the CPU for that task.

But with VMs, and if Zen is high core count enough, I can hopefully get all of these rigs into one server lol.
 

TeknoBug

Platinum Member
Oct 2, 2013
2,083
30
91
Actually, it should be against the law to *sell* a Bay Trail desktop. Being stupid enough to buy one is not a crime.
haha fixing the stupid, just like the city putting those extra giant speed bumps next to schools to force people to slow down (and yet I still see people speed over them and hilariously go flying 5ft in the air).

@poofyhairguy, about HTPC task, guess I could've kept my A8 7600 paired with R5 250, wondering if an i3 5005U or similar could handle it, I have an i3 4010U NUC although it's already being occupied. Or even that quad core Celeron N3150. For now I'm using an A4 5000 laptop for Netflix, Shomi and Google rented movies, it stutters so bad in Shomi and occasionally on movies but perfectly fine in Netflix and XBMC (er... Kodi). I'm just not a fan of dual cores anymore.
 
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dealcorn

Senior member
May 28, 2011
247
4
76
Ya, I am surprised you took the J1800 though. But I agree, as long as you know the EXACT task a pc is doing, buy the CPU for that task.
Because the j1800 turbo's almost 7% higher than the j1900, it may be a superior choice for transient, single threaded loads that are common in lightweight user applications with a GUI. However, I never ran j1800 and j1900 side by side to verify. Kernel compilation strongly benefits from more cores so with a j1800; plan on doing something else while the compilation runs as a background task.

Some time ago, I used a combination of 286 and 386 clients to access a server application running on an IBM PS/2 Model 80. That seriously slow solution required many late nights, but we saved big $ and enhanced access to our data by migrating the application from a mainframe service bureau to a PC LAN. I do get a kick out of the fact that Intel's cheapest desktop processor is affordable and vastly more powerful than un-affordable stuff from years ago. However, the requirement that the end user not be clueless is generally not acceptable in today's marketplace. That is the bar Broxton should target.
 
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Azuma Hazuki

Golden Member
Jun 18, 2012
1,532
866
131
Asking the average user to be clueful is a losing proposition. You would not believe (or perhaps you would) some of the stuff that comes my way at work.

...the best part is when they do the verbal equivalent of patting me on the head and going "Okay sweetie, now can I talk to a man?" No, but you can talk to the woman who's been dirty to the elbows inside computers since she was 8 and the Sega vs. Nintendo wars were on full steam -_-
 

bhtooefr

Member
Jan 2, 2004
59
0
66
So, $450 for a J1800 with a HDD sounds like highway robbery. That said, my Z3735G-based tablet - with more cores, but much lower clock speed than a J1800 - is surprisingly usable. (Then again, it was $60, and I bought it almost as a joke, to see how bad a brand new $60 Windows device could be. It was... not fast, but not as bad as I was expecting, and Windows 10 actually made it decent. Single-threaded performance is definitely in ULV Core 2 Duo territory, multi-threaded performance is in full voltage mobile Core 2 Duo territory but with less context switching penalties due to more cores, but that's enough, and that's a 1.33 to 1.83 GHz actual 2 watt tablet CPU.)

No, I wouldn't suggest someone go out and buy a J1800 (an N2840 maybe, but not a J1800, not when J1900 exists), but really, the J1900 would perform better than a similarly priced used off-lease business machine, and it'd be new and have the warranty that goes along with being new. (Edit: OK, I was a bit outdated. The J1900 gets curbstomped by $200 off-lease stuff now.)
 
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