House passes the $700B+ bailout deal (updated)

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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
The difficulty with extremely complex problems - which issues with the economy almost always are - is that cause and effect are virtually impossible to determine.

It may be the case that regardless of what Congress did, including doing nothing, the economy would collapse. But bail-out naysayers will blame ANYTHING negative that happens from here on out on the bail-out. Similarly, if Congress had done nothing, the other side would say inaction was the cause.

In the same way, everyone is looking at past actions and nit-picking who did what when. Anything perceived to have contributed to the mess is considered blameworthy. I do it myself, blaming the Bush Administration's lax oversight as a major cause of our economic woes.

Is it possible that perfectly reasonable actions contributed to horrible results because the results simply weren't predictable?

If we're so smart, how come over the past 10 or 15 or 20 years, there wasn't a deafening chorus of criticism of all those actions, and widespread dire predictions of the catastrophe we now face?

All I need to know to prove that NO ONE KNOWS JACK is that on almost ANY economic issue, half the economists are on one side, and half are on the other. If cause and effect is so clear - if it's so clear who made what bad decision when - how come there's no economic consensus on virtually anything?

Not every problem is solvable. And even solvable problems may be too complex to be solvable given the current state of knowledge.

We have only one chance at any course in history. We don't get to see an alternative history. It's awfully easy to see bad results and think someone is blameworthy. I prefer to think that it's impossible to anticipate the infinity of ways there are to fvck up.

We've had a pretty good run at good times. Now things are turning sour. I prefer to think this is just the way it is.

Get over it.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
M: You said the bill was the way our government works and that it is disgusting.

b: Do you disagree?

M: Yes, to say it's disgusting is to reject the Constitution as I make clear
---------------
M: What is disgusting, then, is that we are a representative democracy because that's the way our government works. You vote for them and they vote as they please. Perfectly Constitutional as is everything they do, since none of it is successfully Constitutionally challenged.

b; No, not at all really.

M: No not really, that's it? No explanation, no rebuttal, no defense, just your, pardon me for saying so, crass opinion?

b: And first, yes, the biggest problem here really is the people who elect these schmucks into office.

M: Which you are going to solve how?

b: But our Constitution was written specifically to restrain the power of government. Perhaps you can point me in the direction of the Constitution that empowers Congress authority over the manufacture of wooden arrows.

M: Where is your Constitutional challenge? Shit or get off the pot.
-----------------
M: Now you don't like the government and you don't like that it's Constitutional you retreat into the madness that you and not the actual Constitutional government we have knows what's Constitutional. So why are you ranting here instead of taking your case to court? Isn't it because your opinion appeals to just a few other kooks and odd-balls?

b: You forgot clowns.

Sigh.

M: You forgot to answer. You perhaps think that if you can make me feel stupid or ashamed I'll go away. All I see is evasion in everything you say.
---------------
M:We don't have a direct democracy because all you nut cases that demand no action, or this action or that action, any action but the one Congress can agree on, be put into law which would inevitably lead to disaster, if in fact, something needs doing to prevent it.

b: Lead to disaster? Pick up a fucking newspaper, Moonbeam.

M: bamacre answer from Moonbeam> I did, it was light as hell and no back injury or other disaster at all.
------------

M: We had the most politically insulated branch of congress, the Senate, with it's 6 year term and relatively larger number represented, step in and bring calm and action to a frozen House and a frozen credit market. Can't imagine a better case of our government working. Those 100 guy and gals know a whole lot more than you and me and are the best of the best in the nation. But they're all disgusting to you.

b: I am sure Dick Cheney knows a lot about foreign policy. I'm sure Hitler knew a lot of political philosophy. I'm sure the Ted Kaczynski knew a lot about chemistry.

But they're all disgusting to you. Right?

M: No, deranged, not disgusting...
------

M: If our Constitutional government fails it will be because the problems we face require temperance, judgment, and knowledge beyond some systemically induced capacity of the voter is unable to rise to. I see here little but a stampede of dumb cattle, a march of lemmings, and the hooting of monkeys in their trees.

b: And you think those people in Congress have a thorough understanding of what happened? How to solve the problem? How to prevent it from happening again? Remember, Congress is full of lawyers, not economists.

M: I don't think the economists know what to do. None of them have one hand. I do think something needed to be done and they did something. I think they did what they thought was in the country's best interest on the whole. The problem is too large and complex, I fear, for anybody to fully grasp in all details.

In short, unlike you, I didn't jump off the deep end and go stock raving mad because my bigotry got offended. I know a lot less than you do and there wasn't much there to offend. I stayed calm and tried to understand the issue as best I could. I don't have ideological or dream colored glasses. I took no position, assumed nothing, and listened and I came to the conclusion that a plan was needed and accepted the only one we got as the best that we will get this day. Everything happens exactly as God wills because what is IS His Will. You to your raging and madness and me to the peace of surrender.


It is interesting to see what you have become these past few months. You have changed. I bet I am not the only one to see it, either. Most of this drivel isn't even worth replying to. "Where is the constitutional challenge?" Oh fucking get real.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: BoberFett
bamacre

Have you ever noticed that the biggest hypocrites praise direct democracy when it comes to voting for our president, and insist that we get rid of the electoral college, but when it comes to actual freedom suddenly everyone it too stupid to make up their own minds and it takes their superior intellect to tell us how to live?

Bu bu but Gore won the popular vote. This should be a direct democracy. Until we want the minority to rule every moment of our lives, then the representatives are just fine.

I have noticed much better examples than that. Wait until Obama is president, it will be even more clear.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: BoberFett
bamacre

Have you ever noticed that the biggest hypocrites praise direct democracy when it comes to voting for our president, and insist that we get rid of the electoral college, but when it comes to actual freedom suddenly everyone it too stupid to make up their own minds and it takes their superior intellect to tell us how to live?

Bu bu but Gore won the popular vote. This should be a direct democracy. Until we want the minority to rule every moment of our lives, then the representatives are just fine.

You notice, I hope, that whoever it is those biggest hypocrites are, all their wishing for direct election of the President is pennies in a well, but we will live with how our representatives vote, so if some like the fact that a minority can rule your life it's tough shit for you because that's the way it is and will be, but of course, only at those times when the representatives do vote minority. But you can always work for change, maybe something really effective, like voting third party.

Yeah, and voting same party is oh so effective. :roll:
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,568
6,711
126
The only thing that has changed with me in the last few months is the election context in which I'm posting. It should be no big mystery that we are trying to pick a President and I have weighed in on that matter differently than you. Now all of a sudden, I have lost my mind. Hehe. I have argued my case and presented my reasoning, none of which you or your third party voters can counter. Here it is again:

1. Bush has been a total disaster

2: McSame is 90% Bush

3. A vote for McSame will be a 90% disaster at least.

4. It is imperative that McSame does not win.

5. No third party candidate has the slightest chance of wining

6. A vote for a third party candidate does not cancel a vote for McSame.

7. Obama, if HE wins will have a Democratic House and Senate

8. One party in power has the ability to bring real change

9. The only rational and logical choice for the Presidential vote is Obama

Now what you do in the face of these ineluctable facts is to dissemble and retreat into fantasy. You claim that Democrats and Republicans are the same but they are not the same. You claim that one party rule is dangerous.

But what you do not do and cannot do is justify why you will waste your vote regardless of these predictions you have no idea will come true or not.

The facts that only Obama can bring change. Only with Obama is there the slightest hope. You prefer an ideological delusion, a purity of purpose to practical reality. You are an egotistical fool who prefers his ideology over the fact that your country needs change and the only way any change is even remotely possible is with Obama. You refuse to face the utter absolute logic before you and will waste your vote and allow some fool's vote for McSame to go uncanceled, and all because you have a big fat head.

Save your third party shit, like lots and lots of smart Libertarians, for when it doesn't matter. Work to make your party electable, to get your message out where it attracts more than a few Gold Bug nuts, and, when you have a chance at effecting change, vote for it. In the mean time try to be real.

Only Obama can bring change. Only Obama. You don't want change, you want to squeal. You want the joys of misunderstood martyrdom, intellectual purity, and ideological airy-fairyness, instead of practical common sense. I have heard all your arguments and find them to be utter baloney. I see your route to be a path of self destruction and self hate, a way to insure catastrophe so you can gloat and say, see, I was right. Yup, dead right.

In the here and now, at the present time, only Obama has a chance to work change. You will vote life affirming or life denying. You have that choice.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,568
6,711
126
And I will tell you again, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - BG" is total madness and a lie.

Extremism is extremism in the defense of anything. It is the way to insure your defense can never win. Extremism is madness and madness is evil. Evil in defense of anything brings nothing but evil. And justice, the scales that balance and weigh is nothing but moderation in it's pure form. There is no virtue in justice that has no moderation and there never will be. BG is an idiot and a fool and an extremist fanatic, a madman who thinks he is justice itself. But this tripe fits you ideological fanaticism well. There is no extreme too extreme for you and no interest in justice.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
8. One party in power has the ability to bring real change

Yes, they do. The same kind of change we saw with Bush.

No, that can't happen. I mean with all the cotton candy and tulip dancing its impossible!
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
And I will tell you again, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - BG" is total madness and a lie.

Extremism is extremism in the defense of anything. It is the way to insure your defense can never win. Extremism is madness and madness is evil. Evil in defense of anything brings nothing but evil. And justice, the scales that balance and weigh is nothing but moderation in it's pure form. There is no virtue in justice that has no moderation and there never will be. BG is an idiot and a fool and an extremist fanatic, a madman who thinks he is justice itself. But this tripe fits you ideological fanaticism well. There is no extreme too extreme for you and no interest in justice.

I guess Jesus was moderate in his beliefs. Gandhi moderate in his beliefs.

You read the quote and see extremism good, moderation bad, but fail to see the context in which they are used.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The facts that only Obama can bring change.

Obama is not change. He is more of the same. When he shows this with actions, you ignore them.

When Obama and Biden fight to send a billion dollars to Georgia while Americans suffer, you ignore it.

When Obama and Biden want to place the same economic sanctions on Iran that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's, you ignore it.

When Obama and Biden support a $700 billion bailout deal and socialization of our credit market, you ignore it.

When Obama and Biden place the defense of Israel as a higher priority than the defense of Americans, you ignore it.

You have become EXACTLY what you have been bitching and complaining about the past 8 years, a fucking apologist.


You don't want change, you want to squeal.

The fact that you could say such a thing is proof that you have become an fool.

Because the opposite is true. It is you who does not want real change. You'll take the easy path for an illusion instead of the rougher terrain that leads to something real.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,568
6,711
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
And I will tell you again, "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." - BG" is total madness and a lie.

Extremism is extremism in the defense of anything. It is the way to insure your defense can never win. Extremism is madness and madness is evil. Evil in defense of anything brings nothing but evil. And justice, the scales that balance and weigh is nothing but moderation in it's pure form. There is no virtue in justice that has no moderation and there never will be. BG is an idiot and a fool and an extremist fanatic, a madman who thinks he is justice itself. But this tripe fits you ideological fanaticism well. There is no extreme too extreme for you and no interest in justice.

I guess Jesus was moderate in his beliefs. Gandhi moderate in his beliefs.

You read the quote and see extremism good, moderation bad, but fail to see the context in which they are used.

Hehehehehehe It is you who do not see that the context never changes. The context is always the fanatic's delusion that he knows what liberty and justice are and that he is acting in that context. He lives in the madness of certainty of context. It is why the bigot is always blind. He is right in the world he imagines and creates out of madness. You are the very thing that you fear and seek to protect yourself from. You have met the enemy and he is you. The struggle between good and evil is the source of all suffering. There is no good or evil you yourself do not create.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,568
6,711
126
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
8. One party in power has the ability to bring real change

Yes, they do. The same kind of change we saw with Bush.

No, that can't happen. I mean with all the cotton candy and tulip dancing its impossible!

You know nothing but what you pull from your ass. You see only your own hopelessness and failure out there. You are trapped in the mental script of the past, stuck to the wheel of Karma.
 

Wheezer

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 1999
6,731
1
81
goddamn...I cannot wait until this happens again...and it will......our politicians did not learn shit from the depression, they won't learn anything from this.....I hope this country goes bankrupt.

fuck everybody.

 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
8. One party in power has the ability to bring real change

Yes, they do. The same kind of change we saw with Bush.

No, that can't happen. I mean with all the cotton candy and tulip dancing its impossible!

You know nothing but what you pull from your ass. You see only your own hopelessness and failure out there. You are trapped in the mental script of the past, stuck to the wheel of Karma.

You know nothing but what obama pulls from his ass. You see only the illusion of hope and a candy coated future. You are trapped in the mental script of the two party system, stuck to the wheel of ignorance.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
76
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
8. One party in power has the ability to bring real change

Yes, they do. The same kind of change we saw with Bush.

Good news, things can only improve after Bush :laugh:

I'd like to ask this again since I didn't get any responses last time, not at BoberFett directly.

If you are voting for McCain because you don't want a single party in power, did you vote for Kerry in 2004?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
8. One party in power has the ability to bring real change

Yes, they do. The same kind of change we saw with Bush.

No, that can't happen. I mean with all the cotton candy and tulip dancing its impossible!

You know nothing but what you pull from your ass. You see only your own hopelessness and failure out there. You are trapped in the mental script of the past, stuck to the wheel of Karma.

You know nothing but what obama pulls from his ass. You see only the illusion of hope and a candy coated future. You are trapped in the mental script of the two party system, stuck to the wheel of ignorance.

Except for the part of the two party system, you could have been talking about Ron Paul.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Wheezer
goddamn...I cannot wait until this happens again...and it will......our politicians did not learn shit from the depression, they won't learn anything from this.....I hope this country goes bankrupt.

fuck everybody.

Well, actually, they did learn shit from the depression. they learned not to let the financial sector sit and spin.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
8. One party in power has the ability to bring real change

Yes, they do. The same kind of change we saw with Bush.

No, that can't happen. I mean with all the cotton candy and tulip dancing its impossible!

You know nothing but what you pull from your ass. You see only your own hopelessness and failure out there. You are trapped in the mental script of the past, stuck to the wheel of Karma.

You know nothing but what obama pulls from his ass. You see only the illusion of hope and a candy coated future. You are trapped in the mental script of the two party system, stuck to the wheel of ignorance.

Except for the part of the two party system, you could have been talking about Ron Paul.

Not even close.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,568
6,711
126
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
8. One party in power has the ability to bring real change

Yes, they do. The same kind of change we saw with Bush.

No, that can't happen. I mean with all the cotton candy and tulip dancing its impossible!

You know nothing but what you pull from your ass. You see only your own hopelessness and failure out there. You are trapped in the mental script of the past, stuck to the wheel of Karma.

You know nothing but what obama pulls from his ass. You see only the illusion of hope and a candy coated future. You are trapped in the mental script of the two party system, stuck to the wheel of ignorance.

I don't know anything and I have said so.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,568
6,711
126
Originally posted by: Wheezer
goddamn...I cannot wait until this happens again...and it will......our politicians did not learn shit from the depression, they won't learn anything from this.....I hope this country goes bankrupt.

fuck everybody.

I like this. So close to what we feel. You are the first person in everybody. But of course you don't hate YOURself, much.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Wheezer
goddamn...I cannot wait until this happens again...and it will......our politicians did not learn shit from the depression, they won't learn anything from this.....I hope this country goes bankrupt.

fuck everybody.

I like this. So close to what we feel. You are the first person in everybody. But of course you don't hate YOURself, much.

I love everyone Moonie. It just so happens it's time for some tough love. The world needs to suffer for a while and see the results of their actions. A debt based over-consumption model is an economy looking to fail.

I wouldn't be sad to see the world crumble either, but it's because I love everyone and want them to get better instead of wallow in the filth they've created. Maybe another great depression would knock some sense into people.