House passes the $700B+ bailout deal (updated)

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
126
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This thread may one day tell us much about who had any sense, but of course by then all the rationalizations will have set in and all the fools who claimed this and that as fact will be able to show how they were actually right when time proved them wrong. There will be all these buts and ifs and contingencies and would haves and could be piled up enough to reach outer space.

By the time enough years have passed for us to assess such a thing, so much other crap will have happened that acts as an outside influence that people will still be arguing about whether it was a good or bad decision endlessly. Isn't this how it always works?

I think it's quite clear that a whole bunch of folk here are predicting the end and if in a few years we're arguing it will mean they were wrong, no?
Nobody has predicted that failing to pass it will be the end of the world.

Are you taking my worked literally, or in the way they were intended. There are a whole pile of people pissing and moaning about what a disaster passing this bill was while others are saying it was necessary to save the nation from worse disaster still. Many of that first pile are saying nothing prophylactic was done. I think time will tell, but only people like me who are open to seeing and haven't insisted I know everything. The rest will lie to themselves about the fact they will be proved fools. That is how I see it.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Are you taking my worked literally, or in the way they were intended. There are a whole pile of people pissing and moaning about what a disaster passing this bill was while others are saying it was necessary to save the nation from worse disaster still. Many of that first pile are saying nothing prophylactic was done. I think time will tell, but only people like me who are open to seeing and haven't insisted I know everything. The rest will lie to themselves about the fact they will be proved fools. That is how I see it.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that passing this bill would have negative effects in the short run.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bamacre
Regardless what anyone thinks about the necessity of the bailout itself, we should all be thundering mad about the way it was passed. Yes, I am talking about the 400+ pages of pork and crap.

"Don't like the bill? Then what irrelevant crap would you like to add to it that would change your mind?"

It has nothing to do with R's or D's. This is the way our government works, and what we witnessed today is absolutely nothing new. And it's fucking disgusting.

Why? Don't you think that disgust is an evolutionary adaptation to keep you from eating maggoty meat and rotten bananas? How did such a primitive reaction get put on the government? Are you opposed to a representative democracy and want to substitute your notion of disgust for that of others?

I don't think I need anyone to tell me not to eat "maggoty meat and rotten bananas." When I bought my last car, I didn't thank the government for forcing Honda to put seat belts in it either. I would never support a pure democracy, but I would love to see the day we go back to being a Constitutional Republic, especially one that follows the actual Constitution.

I asked you about a representative democracy, not a pure democracy or what you would like to see. I believe a representative government is what we were given by the Constitution. I think you must also mean go back to what you think is the Constitution, since all that is so far has not been successfully challenged by the Supreme Court, right?

Either I am not understanding what you are asking, or you need to go look up the difference between a democracy and a Republic.

You said the bill was the way our government works and that it is disgusting.

What is disgusting, then, is that we are a representative democracy because that's the way our government works. You vote for them and they vote as they please. Perfectly Constitutional as is everything they do, since none of it is successfully Constitutionally challenged. Now you don't like the government and you don't like that it's Constitutional you retreat into the madness that you and not the actual Constitutional government we have knows what's Constitutional. So why are you ranting here instead of taking your case to court? Isn't it because your opinion appeals to just a few other kooks and odd-balls?

We don't have a direct democracy because all you nut cases that demand no action, or this action or that action, any action but the one Congress can agree on, be put into law which would inevitably lead to disaster, if in fact, something needs doing to prevent it. We had the most politically insulated branch of congress, the Senate, with it's 6 year term and relatively larger number represented, step in and bring calm and action to a frozen House and a frozen credit market. Can't imagine a better case of our government working. Those 100 guy and gals know a whole lot more than you and me and are the best of the best in the nation. But they're all disgusting to you.

If our Constitutional government fails it will be because the problems we face require temperance, judgment, and knowledge beyond some systemically induced capacity of the voter is unable to rise to. I see here little but a stampede of dumb cattle, a march of lemmings, and the hooting of monkeys in their trees.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
You said the bill was the way our government works and that it is disgusting.

Do you disagree?

What is disgusting, then, is that we are a representative democracy because that's the way our government works. You vote for them and they vote as they please. Perfectly Constitutional as is everything they do, since none of it is successfully Constitutionally challenged.

No, not at all really. And first, yes, the biggest problem here really is the people who elect these schmucks into office.

But our Constitution was written specifically to restrain the power of government. Perhaps you can point me in the direction of the Constitution that empowers Congress authority over the manufacture of wooden arrows.

Now you don't like the government and you don't like that it's Constitutional you retreat into the madness that you and not the actual Constitutional government we have knows what's Constitutional. So why are you ranting here instead of taking your case to court? Isn't it because your opinion appeals to just a few other kooks and odd-balls?

You forgot clowns.

Sigh.

We don't have a direct democracy because all you nut cases that demand no action, or this action or that action, any action but the one Congress can agree on, be put into law which would inevitably lead to disaster, if in fact, something needs doing to prevent it.

Lead to disaster? Pick up a fucking newspaper, Moonbeam.

We had the most politically insulated branch of congress, the Senate, with it's 6 year term and relatively larger number represented, step in and bring calm and action to a frozen House and a frozen credit market. Can't imagine a better case of our government working. Those 100 guy and gals know a whole lot more than you and me and are the best of the best in the nation. But they're all disgusting to you.

I am sure Dick Cheney knows a lot about foreign policy. I'm sure Hitler knew a lot of political philosophy. I'm sure the Ted Kaczynski knew a lot about chemistry.

But they're all disgusting to you. Right?

If our Constitutional government fails it will be because the problems we face require temperance, judgment, and knowledge beyond some systemically induced capacity of the voter is unable to rise to. I see here little but a stampede of dumb cattle, a march of lemmings, and the hooting of monkeys in their trees.

And you think those people in Congress have a thorough understanding of what happened? How to solve the problem? How to prevent it from happening again? Remember, Congress is full of lawyers, not economists.
 

DerekWilson

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2003
2,921
5
0
Originally posted by: lupi
I only hope they have some time at the end of the day to walk over to the smithsonian and personally wipe their asses on the constitution.

amen
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
Originally posted by: DerekWilson
Originally posted by: lupi
I only hope they have some time at the end of the day to walk over to the smithsonian and personally wipe their asses on the constitution.

amen

No need. This was spotted on sale at the Whitehouse this week....

Click me! :shocked:
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: Engineer
Stock market sold into the rally. From 300 to 150 in a few minutes.

Why is the market dropping now? I was expecting it to jump like 10% once the bailout passed.

The expectation of it passing was probably mostly priced in.

Had the House failed to pass it I don't want to speculate what would have happened.

Right, but it's actually dropping now. If the expectation was already priced in, shouldn't the market just be holding steady?


Nah, now the "market makers" are pushing it down to get the Fed to cut rates, preferrably by 50 basis points! :D
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,923
0
0
Unfortunately, we have verified that the guys on Wallstreet can do whatever they want and the government will bail them out if trouble looms. Hooray! Now it's time for some regulations to be put in place to prevent something like this from happening again.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,689
2,811
126
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: Special K
Originally posted by: Engineer
Stock market sold into the rally. From 300 to 150 in a few minutes.

Why is the market dropping now? I was expecting it to jump like 10% once the bailout passed.

The expectation of it passing was probably mostly priced in.

Had the House failed to pass it I don't want to speculate what would have happened.

Right, but it's actually dropping now. If the expectation was already priced in, shouldn't the market just be holding steady?


Nah, now the "market makers" are pushing it down to get the Fed to cut rates, preferrably by 50 basis points! :D

That's why you want to buy in on this upcoming plunge. If you were Hank and Ben, wouldn't you want to try to maximize the bill passage news with a rate cut or some other rabbit out of the hat? If we drop hard on Monday or sometime next week, I'm going to scale in. Hank and Ben will push the red button.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,923
0
0
Originally posted by: WaTaGuMp
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Are you opposed to a representative democracy and want to substitute your notion of disgust for that of others?

Anyone who supported that bill and pushed to get it passed stands against democracy. The people said no, our rulers said yes. To hell with them.

I dont remember democracy its been so long.

You don't remember America's democracy because it never existed.

We live in a constitutional republic. A lot of our representatives have lost sight of that fact and are trying to make the government more powerful than it was ever meant to be.
 

nergee

Senior member
Jan 25, 2000
843
0
0
I'm not sure exactly what a negative close means on the day of a $700B bailout. But logic tells me it isn't good.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
126
M: You said the bill was the way our government works and that it is disgusting.

b: Do you disagree?

M: Yes, to say it's disgusting is to reject the Constitution as I make clear
---------------
M: What is disgusting, then, is that we are a representative democracy because that's the way our government works. You vote for them and they vote as they please. Perfectly Constitutional as is everything they do, since none of it is successfully Constitutionally challenged.

b; No, not at all really.

M: No not really, that's it? No explanation, no rebuttal, no defense, just your, pardon me for saying so, crass opinion?

b: And first, yes, the biggest problem here really is the people who elect these schmucks into office.

M: Which you are going to solve how?

b: But our Constitution was written specifically to restrain the power of government. Perhaps you can point me in the direction of the Constitution that empowers Congress authority over the manufacture of wooden arrows.

M: Where is your Constitutional challenge? Shit or get off the pot.
-----------------
M: Now you don't like the government and you don't like that it's Constitutional you retreat into the madness that you and not the actual Constitutional government we have knows what's Constitutional. So why are you ranting here instead of taking your case to court? Isn't it because your opinion appeals to just a few other kooks and odd-balls?

b: You forgot clowns.

Sigh.

M: You forgot to answer. You perhaps think that if you can make me feel stupid or ashamed I'll go away. All I see is evasion in everything you say.
---------------
M:We don't have a direct democracy because all you nut cases that demand no action, or this action or that action, any action but the one Congress can agree on, be put into law which would inevitably lead to disaster, if in fact, something needs doing to prevent it.

b: Lead to disaster? Pick up a fucking newspaper, Moonbeam.

M: bamacre answer from Moonbeam> I did, it was light as hell and no back injury or other disaster at all.
------------

M: We had the most politically insulated branch of congress, the Senate, with it's 6 year term and relatively larger number represented, step in and bring calm and action to a frozen House and a frozen credit market. Can't imagine a better case of our government working. Those 100 guy and gals know a whole lot more than you and me and are the best of the best in the nation. But they're all disgusting to you.

b: I am sure Dick Cheney knows a lot about foreign policy. I'm sure Hitler knew a lot of political philosophy. I'm sure the Ted Kaczynski knew a lot about chemistry.

But they're all disgusting to you. Right?

M: No, deranged, not disgusting...
------

M: If our Constitutional government fails it will be because the problems we face require temperance, judgment, and knowledge beyond some systemically induced capacity of the voter is unable to rise to. I see here little but a stampede of dumb cattle, a march of lemmings, and the hooting of monkeys in their trees.

b: And you think those people in Congress have a thorough understanding of what happened? How to solve the problem? How to prevent it from happening again? Remember, Congress is full of lawyers, not economists.

M: I don't think the economists know what to do. None of them have one hand. I do think something needed to be done and they did something. I think they did what they thought was in the country's best interest on the whole. The problem is too large and complex, I fear, for anybody to fully grasp in all details.

In short, unlike you, I didn't jump off the deep end and go stock raving mad because my bigotry got offended. I know a lot less than you do and there wasn't much there to offend. I stayed calm and tried to understand the issue as best I could. I don't have ideological or dream colored glasses. I took no position, assumed nothing, and listened and I came to the conclusion that a plan was needed and accepted the only one we got as the best that we will get this day. Everything happens exactly as God wills because what is IS His Will. You to your raging and madness and me to the peace of surrender.

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
bamacre

Have you ever noticed that the biggest hypocrites praise direct democracy when it comes to voting for our president, and insist that we get rid of the electoral college, but when it comes to actual freedom suddenly everyone it too stupid to make up their own minds and it takes their superior intellect to tell us how to live?

Bu bu but Gore won the popular vote. This should be a direct democracy. Until we want the minority to rule every moment of our lives, then the representatives are just fine.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
219
106
Originally posted by: SleepWalkerX
The sad thing is if this bailout passes and jobs aren't created, banks continue to fail, and we still reach a major depression (which will be a magnitude longer than it needs to be) I won't bother saying I told you so because its not going to matter. We'll still continue justifying theft from others using whatever means possible (the government in this case) as long as we stand something to gain. Its a horrible way to live.

Yup and next run when China says no to borrowing more money, they will dip into your SS to pay for the next SCAM.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
bamacre

Have you ever noticed that the biggest hypocrites praise direct democracy when it comes to voting for our president, and insist that we get rid of the electoral college, but when it comes to actual freedom suddenly everyone it too stupid to make up their own minds and it takes their superior intellect to tell us how to live?

Bu bu but Gore won the popular vote. This should be a direct democracy. Until we want the minority to rule every moment of our lives, then the representatives are just fine.

You notice, I hope, that whoever it is those biggest hypocrites are, all their wishing for direct election of the President is pennies in a well, but we will live with how our representatives vote, so if some like the fact that a minority can rule your life it's tough shit for you because that's the way it is and will be, but of course, only at those times when the representatives do vote minority. But you can always work for change, maybe something really effective, like voting third party.
 

Balt

Lifer
Mar 12, 2000
12,674
482
126
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Thanks for the $700 billion Bushie!

You're doing a heckuva job Paulie!

Both sides seemed far too happy with themselves. They were all grinning for the cameras like it was some kind of photo op.

Way too much patting on the back from both sides. It's disgusting. Whether you believe in the bailout or not, I think we can all agree it's not the end result of a success but a dismal failure.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Originally posted by: Eeezee
Unfortunately, we have verified that the guys on Wallstreet can do whatever they want and the government will bail them out if trouble looms. Hooray! Now it's time for some regulations to be put in place to prevent something like this from happening again.

The same political clout - now *enhanced* form the bailout - that let them get the bailout can also prevent any significant new regulation.

Notice how it was $ first, fix later?

Have you heard *any* specifics about major new regulation, any schedule, any leaders making a big deal promising to get it done fast, after the bailout passed in 2 weeks?
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
Man, the pork in this bill is almost unbelievable (watching CNN Headline News and it's crazy what these guys added in there).

($110,000,000,000 in unrelated (to the credit crunch) pork).
 

ccbadd

Senior member
Jan 19, 2004
456
0
76
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ccbadd
Originally posted by: 351Cleveland
*shakes head in disbelief*

D or R... I dont care. I am voting out incumbents.

My thoughtless position exactly!!!!

Fixed. If you can't bother to learn the differences between the candidates, you're part of the problem. You want to vote out the minority of outstanding reps too?

Fix your own words jackass, any blind idiot knows the entire culture in Washington is corrupt and needs to change. This requires cleaning house(s) to send the message to those idiots in congress reminding them who they work for!
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,382
7,444
136
Originally posted by: ccbadd
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ccbadd
Originally posted by: 351Cleveland
*shakes head in disbelief*

D or R... I dont care. I am voting out incumbents.

My thoughtless position exactly!!!!

Fixed. If you can't bother to learn the differences between the candidates, you're part of the problem. You want to vote out the minority of outstanding reps too?

Fix your own words jackass, any blind idiot knows the entire culture in Washington is corrupt and needs to change. This requires cleaning house(s) to send the message to those idiots in congress reminding them who they work for!

There is a correction that must be made. Individual incumbents are nothing if you continue to vote for the two major incumbent parties. Will you vote for them to retain control, or will you not?

You need to clear parties, not house.