Hospital janitors are worth more to society than bankers

[BoberFett]

But, tell me oh wise one, what is this level of excessive wealth?

To a bleeding heart, excessive wealth is always anything more than what they have.

 

[Ausm]

To a bleeding heart, excessive wealth is always anything more than what they have.

 

[Carmen813]

Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement, but saying that the core curriculum of an engineering major, for example, is similar to the core curriculum of a philosophy major, for example, is a bit of a stretch.

Actually I can speak from experience, and the answer is yes. I spent 4 years as an electrical engineering program before illness forced me out of school for two years. I decided to totally change career paths, and finished a BA in Psychology. Working on a MS in Counseling now.

The first two years of college, regardless of your major, are remarkably similar. Most schools emphasize a "liberal arts" background before you begin specialization. For engineering, I did take a few more math/science classes than someone in say philosophy, but the net total was that I took 2-3 more math and science classes in total (and 2-3 less liberal arts). During my engineering coursework I also completed courses in psychology, philosophy, art, criminology, history, and writing. As a psychology major I completed courses in biology, humanities, and art (keep in mind a lot of stuff transferred, I didn't need to redo all the math/science).

Once you enter your junior and senior years the coursework obviously diverges significantly. I suppose basic coursework would have been a better term than core curriculum, but I tend to think of the core as the foundation from which your specialized knowledge is built.

*Edit* At the end of the day, it matters what you do with your degree and the knowledge you gained in college. The actual major points you in a direction, but I don't think it rules out doing something totally unrelated.

 

[werepossum]

To a bleeding heart, excessive wealth is always anything more than what they have.

LOL Quoted for truth and humor.

 

[Carmen813]

And yet wealth doesn't guarantee happiness. Saw a study the other day that essentially equated $1300 worth of psychotherapy to a $40,000 pay increase in terms of how much it improved a persons mood/happiness. I didn't read the actual study so I haven't analyzed it at all, but I thought it was interesting.

 

[werepossum]

Actually I can speak from experience, and the answer is yes. I spent 4 years as an electrical engineering program before illness forced me out of school for two years. I decided to totally change career paths, and finished a BA in Psychology. Working on a MS in Counseling now.

The first two years of college, regardless of your major, are remarkably similar. Most schools emphasize a "liberal arts" background before you begin specialization. For engineering, I did take a few more math/science classes than someone in say philosophy, but the net total was that I took 2-3 more math and science classes in total (and 2-3 less liberal arts). During my engineering coursework I also completed courses in psychology, philosophy, art, criminology, history, and writing. As a psychology major I completed courses in biology, humanities, and art (keep in mind a lot of stuff transferred, I didn't need to redo all the math/science).

Once you enter your junior and senior years the coursework obviously diverges significantly. I suppose basic coursework would have been a better term than core curriculum, but I tend to think of the core as the foundation from which your specialized knowledge is built.

Where in G-d's name did you take electrical engineering? I had maybe six electives in four years, never more than one per semester, and in 18 to 22 hours everything else was mandatory science, math and engineering. In a typical semester I would have five engineering core courses or five engineering core courses and one elective, and even then I had to make decisions as to which of two electrical engineering courses to take. And that's at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, which is not exactly MIT. Philosophy, liberal arts and sociology majors (to name a few) took no science other than perhaps biology and chemistry, no physics or higher math at all.

 

[exar333]

Try getting a "janitor bailout" through congress...

 

[Genx87]

Well I find it rather ironic in a progressive state like California. Anybody making over the nation median income is near the top bracket for income tax. How does 48K\year translate into rich?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Where in G-d's name did you take electrical engineering? I had maybe six electives in four years, never more than one per semester, and in 18 to 22 hours everything else was mandatory science, math and engineering. In a typical semester I would have five engineering core courses or five engineering core courses and one elective, and even then I had to make decisions as to which of two electrical engineering courses to take. And that's at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, which is not exactly MIT. Philosophy, liberal arts and sociology majors (to name a few) to no science other than perhaps biology and chemistry, no physics or higher math at all.

Exactly. I know my course load had exactly 1 "elective" scheduled my freshman year at Marquette for EE. I also would have been out in under 4 years had I stayed enrolled there. That was a long time ago but I just happened to be cleaning stuff a couple weeks ago and found all my old paperwork for Marquette and my switch to state school after getting the bill for the first semester. I wonder how much it costs now as it was outrageously expensive 15+ years ago.

 

[her209]

Yes, it takes a lot of work to manipulate the stock market.

 

[Turin39789]

this



Besides, everyone talks hate on bankers and shit and yet they all devote 5%+ company match into their 401k's and roth IRA's. Who do you think manages all that? Janitors?

put it in an index fund. Go to sleep.

So I guess an 8th grader.

 

[FDF12389]

OP, whats the secret to quitting the cigarettes? I tried Pming you.

"Ausm has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her."

 

[QuantumPion]

OP, whats the secret to quitting the cigarettes? I tried Pming you.

"Ausm has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her."

The trick is to drive you crazy trying to figure out how to PM him until they lock you up in an asylum where you can't get cigarettes.

 

[alphatarget1]

Where in G-d's name did you take electrical engineering? I had maybe six electives in four years, never more than one per semester, and in 18 to 22 hours everything else was mandatory science, math and engineering. In a typical semester I would have five engineering core courses or five engineering core courses and one elective, and even then I had to make decisions as to which of two electrical engineering courses to take. And that's at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, which is not exactly MIT. Philosophy, liberal arts and sociology majors (to name a few) to no science other than perhaps biology and chemistry, no physics or higher math at all.

This is off topic but I do value the place of liberal arts in our society. I simply think that there are too many people choose them just because they want to get a degree in something easy. Make education comprehensive. Force students (maybe in HS) to take at least calc1 before they graduate. Force engineering majors to learn how to write and communicate better, etc.

Higher education should be free, but only to those who are bright and will benefit the most from. Getting through school with a 2.0 GPA with a sociology degree (hell, any degree) is worthless, IMO. The education system should provide kids with a general understanding of things and then lead them to whichever field they will excel most at, be it being a mechanic, plumber, instead of trying shove EVERYONE into college.

I have a lot of "well educated" friends who can't do personal finance. That to me is a worthless education. The ones that are horrible at handling money and complain about money are the ones who are the most liberal. No joke.

Getting back on topic. I wonder if some of the bankers who participated in the crisis thought "oh wait, maybe this will screw ordinary people over" or they're only acting upon the premise that this will benefit their bottom line. I can't bring myself to do something immoral to screw someone over for my own benefit, but I do know that a lot of people wouldn't think twice. Maybe it's a breakdown in morality that causes all these problems.

 

[actuarial]

put it in an index fund. Go to sleep.
So I guess an 8th grader.

Who makes an index fund? Who decides what's in an index fund? Who tracks your earnings in said fund and pays you out accordingly? Who creates the systems (markets) for you to be able to procure index funds? How do the companies the index fund invests in raise capital?

 

[ShawnD1]

This is off topic but I do value the place of liberal arts in our society. I simply think that there are too many people choose them just because they want to get a degree in something easy. Make education comprehensive. Force students (maybe in HS) to take at least calc1 before they graduate. Force engineering majors to learn how to write and communicate better, etc.

I'm an engineering major and we are required to learn communications. So far I've already taken classes on technical writing and report writing. Next semester I take a class about giving presentations and public speaking.

Getting back on topic. I wonder if some of the bankers who participated in the crisis thought "oh wait, maybe this will screw ordinary people over" or they're only acting upon the premise that this will benefit their bottom line. I can't bring myself to do something immoral to screw someone over for my own benefit, but I do know that a lot of people wouldn't think twice. Maybe it's a breakdown in morality that causes all these problems.

It's because nothing happens when you screw people over. Nobody goes to jail, or if they do, it's not for a long period of time. Maybe people would think twice if the punishment for hardcore fraud was a minimum of 30 years in jail with no chance for parole.

 

[Ausm]

OP, whats the secret to quitting the cigarettes? I tried Pming you.

"Ausm has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her."

PM sent

 

[Ns1]

put it in an index fund. Go to sleep.

So I guess an 8th grader.

FYI stock markets are driven by bankers, lawyers, and accountants.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Actually I can speak from experience, and the answer is yes. I spent 4 years as an electrical engineering program before illness forced me out of school for two years. I decided to totally change career paths, and finished a BA in Psychology. Working on a MS in Counseling now.

The first two years of college, regardless of your major, are remarkably similar. Most schools emphasize a "liberal arts" background before you begin specialization. For engineering, I did take a few more math/science classes than someone in say philosophy, but the net total was that I took 2-3 more math and science classes in total (and 2-3 less liberal arts). During my engineering coursework I also completed courses in psychology, philosophy, art, criminology, history, and writing. As a psychology major I completed courses in biology, humanities, and art (keep in mind a lot of stuff transferred, I didn't need to redo all the math/science).

Once you enter your junior and senior years the coursework obviously diverges significantly. I suppose basic coursework would have been a better term than core curriculum, but I tend to think of the core as the foundation from which your specialized knowledge is built.

*Edit* At the end of the day, it matters what you do with your degree and the knowledge you gained in college. The actual major points you in a direction, but I don't think it rules out doing something totally unrelated.

I can speak from experience too, since I have a degree in EE. My entire first two years of undergrad contained much more science, math, etc. than a liberal arts major, not to mention the rigor involved in those math and science courses as opposed to the non-engineering versions. My curriculum required (IIRC) 15 or 18 hours of humanities for the entire degree, which is a mere 5 or 6 classes. I think I took 3 Spanish classes and 2 or 3 Econ classes. Hardly an emphasis on liberal arts, and this is from a Big Ten engineering school.

We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Where in G-d's name did you take electrical engineering? I had maybe six electives in four years, never more than one per semester, and in 18 to 22 hours everything else was mandatory science, math and engineering. In a typical semester I would have five engineering core courses or five engineering core courses and one elective, and even then I had to make decisions as to which of two electrical engineering courses to take. And that's at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, which is not exactly MIT. Philosophy, liberal arts and sociology majors (to name a few) to no science other than perhaps biology and chemistry, no physics or higher math at all.

I don't want to keep derailing this thread, but suffice it to say, this is pretty much what I experienced as well. Chemistry, Physics, and Calc/DiffEq consumed something like 38 or 40 hours of the first two years alone.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

That study must be completely lol.

 

[Zebo]

To a bleeding heart, excessive wealth is always anything more than what they have.

It's subjective but I'd be happy if these bankers & CEOs who get most of their pay via long options a thus taxed @ 15% were taxed as much as you or any other working stiff.

 

[Carmen813]

To answer a few questions:
I went to the Rochester Institute of Technology. I believe I was required to take six courses in liberal arts, my foreign language requirement was waved. From what I remember, I did Calc I-IV, Engineering Math, Diff EQ, Complex Variables. On the science side I did Physics I-III, Chemistry, and a shitload of engineering stuff. Sadly I remember basically none of it. Obviously programs will differ somewhat.

I was about a year from finishing my degree when I got sick. Honestly, I don't really miss it. I suppose I would make more money, but I didn't like engineering. I worked some co-ops and after I got sick decided it wasn't for me. As I said earlier, what matters is what you do with your degree. There is nothing wrong with earning a degree in sociology, provided you can apply the knowledge you gained. My undergrad is in Psychology, which isn't to useful on its own. However, I did well enough to earn a $60,000 scholarship to earn a free Master's and I currently get paid pretty well (around 20 an hour). The engineering school at my graduate university hires a counseling student to work in the engineering building (since engineering students are special people . I'm debating applying for it, since I've got a bit of experience on what its like.

As for the study I mentioned, here is the story link. Not sure where it was actually published:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/psychotherapycanboosthappinessmorethanmoneystudy
Frankly, it's not surprising to me. I'm not sure the ratio is accurate, but I'd venture solid mental health is worth a great deal more in terms of happiness than simply having more money.

 

[BoberFett]

It's subjective but I'd be happy if these bankers & CEOs who get most of their pay via long options a thus taxed @ 15% were taxed as much as you or any other working stiff.

I have absolutely no problem with interest and appreciation income being taxed as though it were simply additional income. We'd probably have to make some allowances for different lengths in terms, because it's not really fair to sell an asset and have to claim all that income during one year when in fact that income is the accumulation of many years of appreciation.

 

[werepossum]

To answer a few questions:
I went to the Rochester Institute of Technology. I believe I was required to take six courses in liberal arts, my foreign language requirement was waved. From what I remember, I did Calc I-IV, Engineering Math, Diff EQ, Complex Variables. On the science side I did Physics I-III, Chemistry, and a shitload of engineering stuff. Sadly I remember basically none of it. Obviously programs will differ somewhat.

I was about a year from finishing my degree when I got sick. Honestly, I don't really miss it. I suppose I would make more money, but I didn't like engineering. I worked some co-ops and after I got sick decided it wasn't for me. As I said earlier, what matters is what you do with your degree. There is nothing wrong with earning a degree in sociology, provided you can apply the knowledge you gained. My undergrad is in Psychology, which isn't to useful on its own. However, I did well enough to earn a $60,000 scholarship to earn a free Master's and I currently get paid pretty well (around 20 an hour). The engineering school at my graduate university hires a counseling student to work in the engineering building (since engineering students are special people . I'm debating applying for it, since I've got a bit of experience on what its like.

As for the study I mentioned, here is the story link. Not sure where it was actually published:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/psychotherapycanboosthappinessmorethanmoneystudy
Frankly, it's not surprising to me. I'm not sure the ratio is accurate, but I'd venture solid mental health is worth a great deal more in terms of happiness than simply having more money.

No offense, but that's a lot different from your original statement that the first two years are the same. Remembering back I took racquetball, backpacking, and literature as electives - I cannot recall any others. (Granted it's been thirty years.) The only place I encountered students in soft science or liberal arts majors was in those courses and a few in chemistry; they were taking little or no science and their math was pre-algabra, algabra, and "advanced math" which were all high school math. Their only science was biology and/or chemistry, only one of the two for liberal arts majors. There is a reason for the old joke that a liberal arts graduate says "you want fries with that?" and it is because a liberal arts graduate is qualified to do nothing except marry well or possibly teach liberal arts to others. Nothing against sociology in particular, but we have far too many sociology and philosophy and psychology graduates. Still, if counseling is what you really want to do, then it's good you dropped out of engineering, it's too much work to do just by default and you no doubt make a much better counselor. Whenever possible, people are better off doing what they enjoy even if they make less money.

I wouldn't deny that good psychotherapy is better than a small to moderate raise to eliminate "psychological distress", but the vast majority of people are not suffering from that and would benefit much more from a small to moderate raise than from psychotherapy, even good psychotherapy. Saying that psychotherapy can boost happiness more than money is misleading.