Hope for any just peace in Israel dims

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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This is the Statement of the likely next Israeli PM Netanyu.

Who says he will allow West Bank settlements to keep infinitely expanding leaving Israel no remaining land to deal out to form any king of Palestinian State.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...ml_israel_palestinians

Its just very difficult to see any peace hopes at all or any workable settlement if Obama and George Mitchell do not take some sort of a NO NO to that stance.

It just flat out cannot work for a peace plan if that is to become the Israeli policy and the way Israel rewards those that refrain from terrorism.

But it seems to be Israeli democracy in action.

Just as Hamas is democracy in action.
 

theflyingpig

Banned
Mar 9, 2008
5,616
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So? Israel is stronger than Palestine, they can do what they want. If the Palestinians want the land back they need allies to help them get it back. But, no one will help them, because no one cares. It's simple, really.
 

Elias824

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2007
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You assume that if obama took a NO NO stance it would make a diffrence. Im sure they would just find something new to fight over.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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If Obama actually wanted to take a NO NO stance, he could stop the US diplomatic support of Israel which allows it to avoid the economic sanctions that would cut it off from the resources Israel requires to continue their conquest over what little of Palestine is left.

All Obama needs to bring peace of this conflict is for popular opinion to motivate him. Israeli leaders, Netanyahu or otherwise, can only continue to deny the rights of Palestinians as long as we the people allow it.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Originally posted by: Elias824
You assume that if obama took a NO NO stance it would make a diffrence. Im sure they would just find something new to fight over.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Obama takes a NO NO stance, Israel would also see their $15-20K per ca pita US subsidy vanish as well as all those billions and billions of dollar free US military assistance vanish as well.

And that reality might compel Israel to start to get real, pull the settlements, and modify their behavior.

And we might see a just peace in the mid-east.

IMHO, US policy is much of what prevents a just settlement now. As long as the USA issues Israel a blank check, they will cash it.

The other alternative is binding third party arbitration.

But as it is, why should Israel be willing to stop infinitely expanding spreading war and destruction on its weaker neighbors.
 

bbdub333

Senior member
Aug 21, 2007
684
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Originally posted by: Lemon law

And that reality might compel Israel to start to get real, pull the settlements, and modify their behavior.

And we might see a just peace in the mid-east.

What evidence do you have that suggests an agreement in Israel's part will lead to an end in violence on the Palestinian's part?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: Elias824
You assume that if obama took a NO NO stance it would make a diffrence. Im sure they would just find something new to fight over.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Obama takes a NO NO stance, Israel would also see their $15-20K per ca pita US subsidy vanish as well as all those billions and billions of dollar free US military assistance vanish as well.

And that reality might compel Israel to start to get real, pull the settlements, and modify their behavior.

And we might see a just peace in the mid-east.

IMHO, US policy is much of what prevents a just settlement now. As long as the USA issues Israel a blank check, they will cash it.

The other alternative is binding third party arbitration.

But as it is, why should Israel be willing to stop infinitely expanding spreading war and destruction on its weaker neighbors.

The aid we provide represents about 10% of their military budget. You think 10% will curb the situation over there? It may make a dent in their military spending until they modify their budget. But in the long term it wont cripple them.

We have tried the 3rd party aritration and it fails. We have tried nearly everything except put marines on the ground in between the two camps. And that isnt something I would support.

Perhaps the world should move on and come to the conclusion nothing is going to be solved until one of the camps gives up and is taken over.


 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
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I think every man women and child in the region should be given a propane torch and needle nose pliers and have their left legs tied together with someone of same age weight and sex on the opposite side. Rinse and repeat until you get the winnar!!!!!
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
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Originally posted by: bbdub333
Originally posted by: Lemon law

And that reality might compel Israel to start to get real, pull the settlements, and modify their behavior.

And we might see a just peace in the mid-east.

What evidence do you have that suggests an agreement in Israel's part will lead to an end in violence on the Palestinian's part?
The evidence shows that decades of Israel building and expanding those settlements in denial of Palestinians right to exist, while depriving Palestinians civil rights, and killing off anyone who stands in the way, has only lead to ever increasing violence. What more evidence do you need to show you who has been perpetuating this conflict?

And no, cutting aid to them isn't enough, but imposing sanctions to cut Israel off from the world would be enough, just as it was enough to end apartheid in South Africa.

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
I think every man women and child in the region should be given a propane torch and needle nose pliers and have their left legs tied together with someone of same age weight and sex on the opposite side. Rinse and repeat until you get the winnar!!!!!

You think like a psychopath.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,455
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Last time Netanyu was PM he kept the Islamic extremists in their place. I suspect he wouldn't surrender to them like world+dog wants.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Up until now, the Palestinians (militants & leadership) have always found an excuse to cotninue ensuring that Israel does not feel safe.

As long as they choose to act in such a manner, Israel is not going to bend over to accomidate them.

The Palestinians choose conflict, Israel will go on its own.

As long as the Pals poke Israel, then an embargo is not going to generate support.

And an embargo could then force Israel to take off the kid gloves if the Palestinians have not show a willingness for peace.

Some feel that the US support is allowing Israel to do as they want; it may be that is the thing that is holding Israel back.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Israel's conquest over Palestine only continues under US diplomatic support, and blaming the victims of that conquest only has popular support from the brainwashed masses in Israel and the US.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I wonder why the Palestenians don't direct all their attacks at the illlegal settlements.

Wouldn't that get a lot better international support?
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Topic Title: Hope for any just peace in Israel dims

Gee I thought that was when the Palestinians democratically elected a group with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. huh.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
I wonder why the Palestenians don't direct all their attacks at the illlegal settlements.

Wouldn't that get a lot better international support?

Then you have no grasp of how well protected those settlements are.

Why don't you start looking into the realities of Israel's conquest over Palestine instead of perpetuating fantasies to fault the victims?

Originally posted by: jonks
Topic Title: Hope for any just peace in Israel dims

Gee I thought that was when the Palestinians democratically elected a group with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. huh.

And what do you think about Israeli government actively pursuing the destruction of Palestine since long before Hamas existed?
 
Dec 26, 2007
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: Elias824
You assume that if obama took a NO NO stance it would make a diffrence. Im sure they would just find something new to fight over.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Obama takes a NO NO stance, Israel would also see their $15-20K per ca pita US subsidy vanish as well as all those billions and billions of dollar free US military assistance vanish as well.

And that reality might compel Israel to start to get real, pull the settlements, and modify their behavior.

And we might see a just peace in the mid-east.

IMHO, US policy is much of what prevents a just settlement now. As long as the USA issues Israel a blank check, they will cash it.

The other alternative is binding third party arbitration.

But as it is, why should Israel be willing to stop infinitely expanding spreading war and destruction on its weaker neighbors.

That's great and all, but then you realize that it can't happen while most of the ME wants Israel to not exist.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
That's great and all, but then you realize that it can't happen while most of the ME wants Israel to not exist.

You are confused, the ME supports Israel's right to exist in the from of a just solution on the basis of international law. This is exemplified in the Arab Peace Plan, and is backed by the vast majority of the world, while only Israel and the US deny Palestine's right to exist.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Craig234
I wonder why the Palestenians don't direct all their attacks at the illlegal settlements.

Wouldn't that get a lot better international support?

Then you have no grasp of how well protected those settlements are.

Why don't you start looking into the realities of Israel's conquest over Palestine instead of perpetuating fantasies to fault the victims?

What in the world are you talking about? I did nothing of the sort.

If Palastenians can launch rockets into Israel, why can't they launch them at settlements?

I understand there may be a good answer, perhaps a logistical one - the settlements are on hills and there may be no practical location to shoot from - but it's a valid question.

The settlements are illegal, and I think the Palestenians could make a lot better case for attacking these illegal radical invaders than the case they have been able to make for launching rockets into Israel where they might randomly kill civilians (but rarely do, seeming more to serve as a sort of symbolic act of defiance).

Originally posted by: jonks
Topic Title: Hope for any just peace in Israel dims

Gee I thought that was when the Palestinians democratically elected a group with the stated goal of the destruction of Israel. huh.

And what do you think about Israeli government actively pursuing the destruction of Palestine since long before Hamas existed?

Yes, this 'you can't reason with Hamas they'll never agree to anything but the destruction of Israel' claim is little more than an excuse for not making peace efforts.

I've seen Hamas commentators refer to a willingness to accept Israel if there is justice for Palestinians.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: TheSnowmanAll Obama needs to bring peace of this conflict is for popular opinion to motivate him. Israeli leaders, Netanyahu or otherwise, can only continue to deny the rights of Palestinians as long as we the people allow it.

Didn't the Palestinians essentially surrender all of these rights decades ago when they followed the Mufti's calling for them to slaughter Jews in pogroms? Why did they join the Arab armies in an attempt to commit mass genocide against the Jews? Shouldn't there be negative consequences for that sort of a thing (like getting kicked off of the land).

If the Arab people love the Palestinians so much then why haven't they taken them into their own countries and donated money and resources to improve their plight? That's kind of what the Jews did with Israel and with worldwide donations. The Arab world could easily put an end to all of this by just agreeing to take in the Palestinians but instead they want to use the Palestinians as an excuse to attack the Jews and the West.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Israel's conquest over Palestine only continues under US diplomatic support, and blaming the victims of that conquest only has popular support from the brainwashed masses in Israel and the US.

You mean the "victims" that launched suicide attacks against civilian buses and that fired rockets into Israel? The "victims" that joined numerous Arab armies in an attempt to commit mass genocide against the Jews?

What I find amazing is that people actually want to take the side of the Palestinians and the Muslims, a group of people that have, collectively, on a worldwide scale, revealed themselves to be barbarians with a violent, primitive philosophy. In Afghanistan radical Islamacists threw acid on schoolgirls and later threatened to cut off their heads for attending school. In much of the Arab world women are treated like chattel and most Arab nations are religious dictatorships. For the life of me, I can't understand why Americans or anyone who can use a computer would want to defend the Palestinians and Islamic civilization when the world would be much better off with a larger Jewish population and Jewish, Western civilization.

When you take all of your knowledge about these different groups of people and their philosophies it becomes very clear which one is worthy of support and which one has and deserves more credibility.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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There are a handful of commentators I especially like and recommend; one of them is Chris Hedges. His commentary well worth reading on Gaza is:

here.

It is nominally about the terrible coverage by our media, but also discussed some of the larger issues.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Craig234
I wonder why the Palestenians don't direct all their attacks at the illlegal settlements.

Wouldn't that get a lot better international support?

Then you have no grasp of how well protected those settlements are.

Why don't you start looking into the realities of Israel's conquest over Palestine instead of perpetuating fantasies to fault the victims?

What in the world are you talking about? I did nothing of the sort.

If Palastenians can launch rockets into Israel, why can't they launch them at settlements?

Because the settlements aren't anywhere close to Gaza, and Gaza is the only place Israel allows Palestinians the freedom of movement to launch rockets from.

Seriously, all it takes is a bit of research into the reality of this conflict to see how misguided your argument is. I am sure you don't mean to perpetuate such fantasies to fault the victims, but that is what you've done here all the same.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Didn't the Palestinians essentially surrender all of these rights...

No, they didn't.

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
You mean the "victims" that launched suicide attacks...

No, I mean the millions of Palestinians who don't support anything of the sort, but are being stripped of their freedoms and slaughtered in the path of Israel's conquest over Palestine anyway.

But I can see how it would be hard for a flagrant bigot such as yourself to understand as much.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: Craig234
I wonder why the Palestenians don't direct all their attacks at the illlegal settlements.

Wouldn't that get a lot better international support?

Then you have no grasp of how well protected those settlements are.

Why don't you start looking into the realities of Israel's conquest over Palestine instead of perpetuating fantasies to fault the victims?

What in the world are you talking about? I did nothing of the sort.

If Palastenians can launch rockets into Israel, why can't they launch them at settlements?

Because the settlements aren't anywhere close to Gaza, and Gaza is the only place Israel allows Palestinians the freedom of movement to launch rockets from.

Seriously, all it takes is a bit of research into the reality of this conflict to see how misguided your argument is. I am sure you don't mean to perpetuate such fantasies to fault the victims, but that is what you've done here all the same.

What is the purpose of launching rockets from Gaza?

And there were Israeli settlements in Gaza that could have been hit before the pullout.