Kadarin
Lifer
- Nov 23, 2001
- 44,296
- 16
- 81
You may be referring to the murder of Du'a Khalil Aswad, who was a Yezidi. She was killed by a mob of other Yezidis for the "crime" of falling in love with a Muslim.
You may be referring to the murder of Du'a Khalil Aswad, who was a Yezidi. She was killed by a mob of other Yezidis for the "crime" of falling in love with a Muslim.
bwahah i was going to post that
Its not Islamic Law and there is no justification for it.
It doesn't bring in the money like stories about fear and death do. It comes down to what is reported
seriously...reminds me of a friend who has a head as hard as a rock. I swear if she wanted to she could bang her head on a block of concrete and come out unscathed.
Culture and religion are not completely separate, but there is a gradient of separation where you descend into pure culture and pure religion. Islam itself is not a culture on its own. What Islam does is (ideally) integrate into a culture and squash bad things (honor killings) in culture while trying to emphasize and raise others. If I had to make a comparison - I would say that cul;ture could be any morphology that exists, and Islam is a mask that depresses some areas, raises others, and leave other things alone. This is why Muslims around the world still have different culture.
That said - this is a relic from Pre Islamic days in Arabia. Women back then (in a period that is referred to as Jahaliyah) had no rights at all. At all. Islam was very radical in that change that it brought...but certain aspects were not depressed fully as the mask was applied. I would not hesitate to even say that the "mask" of Islam was removed and features were allowed to dominate again.
This is the main problem. An interesting thing to point out is that they killed her because "she dishonored the family"...or "didn't listen to the tribe" bla bla bla, religion often comes afterwards as a justification only if you prod them and counter their main thrust...because invoking god on your side is the ultimate trump card
This phenomenon of honor killings doesn't exist soley within Muslims....other groups in the Middle East also have a similar type of stigma - which shows that perhaps screaming at religion alone is probably barking at the wrong tree. If anything , the emphasis of religion would actually alleviate problems.
Its like promoting the idea that Confucius was all for homosexual relations because it was something that, although not formally sanctioned in Chinese culture, tolerated and accepted to a degree. The reality is that a confucian ideology does not accept it. The ironic part is you'd have Confucian scholars entertaining males masquerading as females even though a pure confucianist (although that definition is actually relative to the time we are considering) would not tolerate that at all. Does it mean a Confucian supports promotes homosexuality? Nope. But does it mean that people often selectively cherry pick what to follow? Yup (and interestingly this was what Prophet Mohammed warned the most about ...not homosexuals, but people who selectively follow aspects and make things out of thin air as they go...its different between synthesizing a sound interpretation based on a text vs. pulling sh|t out of your ass
)Honor so often becomes the ego's pretense to be the opposite of what we feel, that we are the most worthless in the world. We kill so we won't feel how we feel.
Nitemare
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2001
- 35,461
- 4
- 81
The same can be said about American news, yet even good stories make it through occasionally.
Rarely do we hear about anything good at all coming from a Muslim nation except for the occasional article that gets leaked, where someone is going to be punished for breaking Shariah law and catches a break. Usually, it is a backward retarded repressive rule and the victim is going to get like 200 lashes or going to be beheaded. The story gets leaked and the "Muslim regime" says no, we are nice people, we won't punish her for doing something a man can do legally....although it greatly disrespects Islam.
A few weeks go by and a fundie takes care of what the government couldn't because it got called out.
Some years ago 50 women tried to make a statement by driving a car in Saudi Arabia. they were jailed, had their passports revoked and were all fired from their jobs.
A senior councilman suggested that older women be allowed to drive locally by themselves and chaperoned by a male guardian while traveling. There were calls for his removal and his being stripped of his citizenship.
Honor killings are legal in:
Jordan (laws are based on Islam)
Syria (Muslim country)
Morocco(Muslim country)
Haiti(French-African it is pardonable)
Honor killings are not legal, but are common in:
Turkey(Muslim country)
Pakistan(Muslim country, police and prosecutors ignore them over 1200 of them in 2003)
Iraq(Muslim country, happens nearly everyday)
Yeah, you can make the argument that the religion doesn't tell them to go kill women and that it is all tribal. Almost all of these honor killings occur in either a Muslim country or by a Muslim hand.
Yeah, because that's a really big problem here. The same 2 or 3 people post story after story similar to this one. Often there are several threads on the main page alone talking about how Islam is bad because a Muslim did something bad.
Christianity, the US military, the police, don't get bashed half as much on here as Islam does. So.. you can dispense with the right wing persecution complex.
Yes thank you, that was my point. It's not the content so much as the repetition, and the fact that virtually none of the discussion is NEW. The exact same "Islam is evil" thread could be repeated 10 or 11 times, with only the initial story changing from thread to thread.
But who's talking about "community standards"? I'm just a guy posting his opinion on the topic...
datalink7
Lifer
- Jan 23, 2001
- 16,765
- 6
- 81
I don't know, but some weird things happen with bullets sometimes.
I have a buddy over here in Iraq that got shot in the head. It penetrated his Kevlar helmet, bounced off his skull, and still had enough velocity to penetrate back out the side of the Kevlar. He only had a nasty gash. Lucky bastard
Why would that matter in the slightest? Certainly you aren't trying to argue that nothing good happens in Muslim countries, as that would be retarded. Posting the good things that happen there would not in any way address the problem, which is that people are finding something bad a Muslim did and attacking a whole religion because of it.
Nitemare
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2001
- 35,461
- 4
- 81
Let me break it down....
There is good and there is bad...
We hear bad bad bad bad bad bad bad and more bad and ask for a single(1, uno, un) good article and I get...(crickets and tumbleweed)
Give me something good, just 1 thing.
If all someone hears is 100 bad things that someone or a group of people did and nothing good to counter it, then guess what unless they are incredibly naive they are going to believe that that group is bad.
In the court of public opinion, guess what?
This is a dumb question. What do you even mean by something good happening? Do you want a Muslim saving a kitten from a tree? How about the fact that Turkey's economy has expanded rapidly since 2001, attracting lots of foreign investment, and massively reducing inflation that was once a big problem? As shown here. That's great news for Turkey, as they may be able to enter the EU soon, and the quality of life of their citizens is going up. Or how about tales of incredible compassion and decency coming out of Iraq where whole neighborhoods are banding together to help people injured? As shown here?
Just asking for good things coming out of Muslim countries is really dumb. Any anecdotes I give you (and certainly there are millions upon millions) are just as stupid and worthless as the ones you are basing your opinions on. That's not how you make an informed opinion.
To take a bunch of unrelated bad things that people do in a religion that has a billion people in it, and to try and make a larger point about them using anecdotal evidence is stupid. Really really stupid. It doesn't take a naive person not to use 100 anecdotes to make a decision on a religion of a billion, it takes a person with a functional brain.
I did notice in your post now that you're trying to say that it's just a function of what people hear... that betrays the fact that you know the point you're trying to make is dishonest.
eskimospy already outlined how silly that question is from a factual perspective, but it's also a little disingenuous the way you present it. You say "we hear bad bad bad..." implying that there is just this information out there that "we" randomly sample, so any random selection of news stories should be representative of what's really going on. Ignoring for the moment that the news focuses on bad things in general, nobody is randomly sampling anything. There is a dedicated, and rather large, group of people who actively seek out negative news stories about Muslims in an attempt to paint a picture. Call it confirmation bias or whatever you like, but the fact is that when you select stories based on how well they illustrate your point, it would be foolish for anyone else to accept such anecdotal evidence as proof of anything.
Nitemare
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2001
- 35,461
- 4
- 81
Was going to say good job, but noticed on the same page:
On Deadly Ground: The Women of Iraq
Doctor, divorcee, prostitute, prisoner -- these women risk their lives to talk about the reality of terror and hope in Iraq.
Saturday & Sunday, 8 p.m. ET
# Women killed in Iraqi city for wearing makeup
# Iraqi moms turn to prostitution
and yes Turkey is doing really well, but they are a secular Muslim nation who recognizes freedom of religion and separation of religion and government policies.
Turkey prohibits the wearing of religious headcovers and religious apparel within government buildings and schools. Personally, I'd like to see alot more of seperation of church and religion in the US
They are a perfect example of a Muslim nation that is currently in the 21st century. I learned a few things about the country, thanks for pointing it out. However, they still have the "Kurd problem" withing their borders.
Well there you go then, a nation based on Islam that is doing just fine. (and don't try to convince yourself that it isn't..)
EDIT: fixed quotes.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
LOL at the fervent defense. I assume that anyone who has a different thought than you is a "supporter" :roll:
A few years ago in Africa, there were a bunch people going around with machetes. Remember that? Well, many of those happened to be Christians. So Christianity had them doing that? No, but there were and are deep tribal differences which are CULTURAL that were really responsible. Shockingly enough Islam wasn't the problem. You've got your panties in such a knot that if anything happens in the ME, you will automatically blame it on the religion, completely neglecting any other factors. You've hamstrung your ability to discern as a result.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
We have about 13 honour killings in GB a year, about 13 of them are Indians killing their daughters.
The second and third generation Indians are keeping up with the first generations values, it's cultural.
Before the US invaded Iraq the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks were made by the LTTE (somewhere around 80%) and the LTTE consists of mostly Hindus.
These are the fact and yet Muslims (even in Iraq though it is well known that before the US invasion 99.9% of the honour killings were commited by Kurds who were not Muslim) get blamed for both things.
If the US had not invaded Iraq, the LTTE would still be on top.
The second and third generation Indians are keeping up with the first generations values, it's cultural.
Before the US invaded Iraq the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks were made by the LTTE (somewhere around 80%) and the LTTE consists of mostly Hindus.
These are the fact and yet Muslims (even in Iraq though it is well known that before the US invasion 99.9% of the honour killings were commited by Kurds who were not Muslim) get blamed for both things.
If the US had not invaded Iraq, the LTTE would still be on top.
Yes, but it is a Muslim nation that has taken religion out of the government. Most nations would be better if they took religion out of the government.[/quote]
So what you were really saying was that theocracy has a negative influence, and that has nothing to do with Islam specifically as compared to other religions.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
No shit? Could that be why every secular country that follows the ideals of liberalism is a successful country?
But this isn't exclusive for Muslims.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
Actually, to be against Turkey would be considered Heresy by most Islamic sects.
They are also very happy about them fighting Kurds, at one point it was the only real threat and it has not yet bean forgotten.
I think you are forgetting history, and so are others.
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