Honda's engines vs Nissan vs Toyota?

[wellerdball]

which lexus?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: wellerdball
which lexus?

GS300
IS300

 

[wellerdball]

cool I like you NFS4 good common sense

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: NFS4

You are missing the point. Let's say two tires are ridden till they pop as a scientific experiment. One tire pops at 50K miles, another pops at 100K. Which one is going to be more reliable to 40K miles?

I think YOU'RE missing the point. Manufacturers set service intervals for their cars for a specific reason. Going outside of those boundaries is NO guarantee.

If Porsche says that you are supposed to change your oil every 4,000 miles in your Boxster, you had damned well better do it. It's not a matter of the engine being "weak" or "sludge prone," it's b/c for optimum performance and for the health of the engine that's what you should adhere to.

Porsche owners are keen enough to adhere to these intervals for their cars. You won't hear many stories of Porsche owners going way past their service intervals for their cars. OTOH, your typical Accord, Camry, Altima owner might think otherwise and just keep going and going. They aren't as "in tune" with their cars. But that DOESN'T mean that servicing your vehicle isn't as important as it is to the Porsche.

Also, your tire example is not quite valid in real life terms, at least IMHO. You shouldn't ride your tires until they are ready to pop (sure, the scientists can test them to this extreme, but the customers shouldn't if they want to drive safely). Once they are down to the wear bars, it's time for those bastards to go. When you have no tread left on your tires, you're risking the handling/stopping/wet performance of your car which is a danger to you and everyone on the road. Scientists testing the tires in a lab have that luxury to test; customers doing this in the REAL WORLD are just putting their lives (and everyone else on the road) at risk.

Simarly, changing the oil in your car is a common sense thing. JUST DO IT!! I just don't think it's reasonable for a customer to look in the instruction manual and see 3,000 mile service interval for oil and then say "Hmmm, I'll go 10,000 miles just for the hell of it."

If you don't put gas in your car, your sh!t is gonna konk out once it goes a ways past "E." It's up to YOU to watch that "E" closely. You know that once you get to E that you have a few miles left to go (typically 25-30 miles) and that you HAVE to get to the gas station and fill up. Same way with oil. Once you get to 3,000 miles, you better be ready to change your oil soon.

OK, well are Nissan owners or Honda owners more likely to change their oil on time than Toyota owners? I haven't seen any research to suggest that. Yet Nissan engines do not develope sludge. Also, you have no data aside from Toyota's word to show that all sludge buildup resulted from overextended service intervals. All I know is that an engine that doesn't build up sludge even after being driven for 10K miles without oil change is on average more reliable than one that builds up sludge. By on average I mean including all drivers, and corresponding distributions of wait times between oil changes.
Not everyone changes oil at 3000 miles, that's life. If Toyota's engines can't handle it, it's not my fault.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: bolido2000

Originally posted by: BatmanNate
IIRC, a stock '98 Toyota Supra puts out 330 HP from a 3.0L i6. Of course that is FI... My '87 puts out 230 from a 3.0 I6, also FI. The N/A put out 200 from the same 3.0L. I love Toyota's engines simply because they are so hard to kill.

I think the MKIV TT was 320Hp and the NA was 220HP. That engine is a like a rock. Anyways...Toyota is still using that engine in their Lexus line.

Well, while we are talking about inline 6's, the Nissan I6 RB26DETT in the Skyline GTR has nothing to be ashamed of either for a 2.6L engine. Too bad it's not for sale in the US.

 

[NFS4]

Not everyone changes oil at 3000 miles, that's life. If Toyota's engines can't handle it, it's not my fault.

I'm not saying that everyone does. I typically change my oil between 2500 miles and 4000 miles at the EXTREME. MOST of the time I change it every 3,000 miles.

I'd even say that up to 4,500 that you should be OK (but that's still pushing it IMHO). But when you start doubling the interval to 6,000 or even trippling it to 9,000 or 10,000 miles then you are just ASKING for trouble.

If a manufacturer tells you to change the oil in a reasonable amount of time, I think you should adhere to that.

 

[johneetrash]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
But if they compared a well tuned Honda V6 in 2003 Accord to a well tuned Nissan V6 in 350Z, it wouldn't even be close.

wait a minute, are you comparing a V6 accord engine to a V6 350z engine?

--

honda = 100hp/1L engines.. whoop-dee-doo... wee vtec is the greatest thing on earth! the only hondas i really like are ITRs on a twistie track, tho im curious as to what hondata does with their rsx-s chip tuning (i heard a cai + hondata ecu = s2000 levels.. pretty damn impressive, even tho i hate hte car)

nissan = nothing too spectacular other than the 350z... altimas/maximas are too heavy for my liking... (me <3 rb26dett and sr20det)

toyota = eh... i dont really like any of them.. friend has a new gt-s celica and when he gets on it, it's not too impressive... even when vvti kicks in... the is300 needs a lot more power IMO, tho it handles well... i also have lots (and lots) of respect for supra t/tt and mr2 turbos

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Not everyone changes oil at 3000 miles, that's life. If Toyota's engines can't handle it, it's not my fault.

I'm not saying that everyone does. I typically change my oil between 2500 miles and 4000 miles at the EXTREME. MOST of the time I change it every 3,000 miles.

I'd even say that up to 4,500 that you should be OK (but that's still pushing it IMHO). But when you start doubling the interval to 6,000 or even trippling it to 9,000 or 10,000 miles then you are just ASKING for trouble.

If a manufacturer tells you to change the oil in a reasonable amount of time, I think you should adhere to that.

Link

Even Toyota, with its reputation for engine longevity, has issued a letter to owners of many late-model V6 cars promising extended warranties for sludged-up engines. The carmaker says that its 7500-mile oil-change intervals are for cars in "normal" service. However, Toyota claims that the average driver's commuting and shopping driving cycle is considered "severe" service, requiring more frequent oil changes.

So, Toyota recommends 7500 miles for normal service. 7500 to 10000 is not that big of a stretch. Seems like Toyota is confused, because 'average driver commuting' is not the same as 'normal' service. That's what happens when marketing dept writes the maintainance manual.
Nobody is saying that Toyota V6 is a bad engine, but we are talking about creme of the crop here, and some engine that can't handle a missed oil change is just not going to cut butter here.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: bigsmooth

Originally posted by: SuperTool
But I had evap canister control valve problem on my 96 Maxima, and I wouldn't put that under "significant problems". I just disconnected a hose, sprayed some WD40 on the valve, and put the hose back on. That was it.

They didn't either, they listed that as "moderate". I think the ratings are based on both the frequency and the cost to repair the problem.

Well, frequency was 105K miles, and cost was $0
Why do they put evap canister as part of the engine? It's behind the gas tank right next to the rear bumper. Weird.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: NFS4

Not everyone changes oil at 3000 miles, that's life. If Toyota's engines can't handle it, it's not my fault.

I'm not saying that everyone does. I typically change my oil between 2500 miles and 4000 miles at the EXTREME. MOST of the time I change it every 3,000 miles.

I'd even say that up to 4,500 that you should be OK (but that's still pushing it IMHO). But when you start doubling the interval to 6,000 or even trippling it to 9,000 or 10,000 miles then you are just ASKING for trouble.

If a manufacturer tells you to change the oil in a reasonable amount of time, I think you should adhere to that.

Link

Even Toyota, with its reputation for engine longevity, has issued a letter to owners of many late-model V6 cars promising extended warranties for sludged-up engines. The carmaker says that its 7500-mile oil-change intervals are for cars in "normal" service. However, Toyota claims that the average driver's commuting and shopping driving cycle is considered "severe" service, requiring more frequent oil changes.

So, Toyota recommends 7500 miles for normal service. 7500 to 10000 is not that big of a stretch. Seems like Toyota is confused, because 'average driver commuting' is not the same as 'normal' service. That's what happens when marketing dept writes the maintainance manual.
Nobody is saying that Toyota V6 is a bad engine, but we are talking about creme of the crop here, and some engine that can't handle a missed oil change is just not going to cut butter here.

The manual for our '02 Highlander says every 4,000 miles.

7,500 to 10,000 IS a far stretch for a person doing "average driver commuting" which is what most of us do here and what the woman in the 10,000 mile Sienna was doing.

However, if you read the owners manual, it clearly states when to change the oil and under what conditions (as it does in my Camry and in my dad's Highlander).

 

[SuperTool]

To sum things up:
Toyota's V6 is a reliable engine IF you change oil every 4000 miles.
Nissan V6 is a reliable engine PERIOD.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
To sum things up:
Toyota's V6 is a reliable engine IF you change oil every 4000 miles.
Nissan V6 is a reliable engine PERIOD.

Interesting...

What is the oil change interval listed for the Maxima/Altima/etc?? And how often do you change the oil in your car?

The point is, if you don't do what someone TELLS YOU TO DO, what else do you expect?

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: SuperTool
To sum things up:
Toyota's V6 is a reliable engine IF you change oil every 4000 miles.
Nissan V6 is a reliable engine PERIOD.

Interesting...

What is the oil change interval listed for the Maxima/Altima/etc?? And how often do you change the oil in your car?

The point is, if you don't do what someone TELLS YOU TO DO, what else do you expect?

I change it every 4000-5000 miles. But also, I don't hear of many sludge cases in Nissan motors.

 

[wellerdball]

Hmmmmm....for some reason id still take a toyota in terms of longevity simply because of all the dam life ive seen neighboors,friends,and family get out of their toyotas

 

[wellerdball]

car row call!

 

[Eli]

All you people do realize that it's not like a company just slaps a 2.2L engine together, runs it over to the dyno, and records what it puts out? lol.. No, they control every aspect of it. The engine performs exactly how they want it to. They can manipulate every aspect of an engines output. The key is to find the balance between reliability, and power. Valve timing has more to do with the torque curve than anything, and that's completely variable from a manufacturing standpoint.

Generally, the more power an engine develops.. the shorter it's lifespan, all other things being equal. You can take the 1.6L F4 VW engine and build it up to 2.2L, but it isn't going to last 250,000 miles anymore.

Daihatsu has an interesting inline 3 cylinder engine that has DVVT(Dynamically Variable Valve Timing). I3, DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder, EFI.

It produces 63HP @ 6000RPM and 69ft. lbs of torque @ 3600rpm. Not really all that impressive, but it would make a cool dune buggy engine. Obviously, it produces 63HP/litre and 69ftlbs/litre. Let's use that method of comparison to evaulate different companies engines, although I realize it doesen't take the whole powerband into account.

The 2.3L engine in the 2003 Honda Accord produces 69HP/litre and 70ftlbs/litre.
The 3.0L V6 version produces 80HP/litre and 70ftlbs/litre.
The 1.6L engine in the Civic DX and LX produce 71HP/litre and 68ftlbs/litre.
The 1.6L engine in the Civic HX produces 73HP/litre and 69ftlbs/litre
The 1.6L engine in the Civic EX produces 79hp/litre and 71ftlbs/litre
The Honda Civic Hybrid's 1.3L engine produces 65HP/litre and 66ftlbs/litre.
The Civic Si's 2.0L engine produces 80HP/litre and 66ftlbs/litre.
The Honda Odyssey's 3.5L engine produces 68HP/litre and 69ftlbs/litre. [/b]
The Honda S2000's 2.0L engine produces 120HP/litre and 76ftlbs/litre. :Q

Now, onto Toyota...

The 2.4L engine in the Camry produces 65HP/litre and 67ftlbs/litre.
The 3.0L version produces 64hp/litre and 69ftlbs/litre.
The Corolla's 1.8L engine produces 72HP/litre and 69ftlbs/litre.
The Celica GT's 1.8L engine produces 77hp/litre and 69ftlbs/litre.
The GT-S version develops 100hp/litre and 72ftlbs/litre, also 1.8L.
The Matrix and Matrix XR both use the same 1.8L engine that the Corolla uses.
The Matrix XRS uses the same engine that the Celica GT-S uses.
The MR2 Spyder's 1.8L engine produces 76HP/litre and 69ftlbs/litre.
Toyota's Hybrid, the Prius.. has a 1.5L engine that produces 46hp/litre and 45ftlbs/litre. I bet that's due to extensive emissions control though.
The Avalon's 3.0L engine produces 70HP/litre and 73ftlbs/litre.
The Echo has a 1.5L engine that produces 72HP/litre and 70ftlbs/litre.

The Nissan Maxima uses a 3.5L engine that produces 72HP/litre and 70ftlbs/litre.
The Sentra XE and GXE use a 1.8L engine that produces 70HP/litre and 71ftlbs/litre.
The Sentra 25LE has a 2.5L engine that produces 66hp/litre and 70ftlbs/litre.
The Altima 2.5, 2.5S and 2.5SL all use the same 2.5L engine that produces 70HP/litre and 72ftlbs/litre.
The Altima 3.5SE gets a 3.5L engine that produces 70HP/litre and 70ftlbs/litre.
The 350Z uses a 3.5L engine that produces 79HP/litre and 78ftlbs/litre.
The SE-R has a 2.5L engine that produces 66HP/litre and 70ftlbs/litre.
The Spec-V also uses a 2.5L engine, but scores 70HP/litre and 72ftlbs/litre.
The Pathfinder gets a 3.5L engine that develops 68HP/litre and 75ftlbs/litre.
The Quest has a 3.3L engine that produces 51HP/litre, and 60ftlbs/litre.

Anybody see a trend here? Besides the few that stick out, they really aren't all that much different.

So I would think the main issue is reliability... and that's a time thing. Honda and Toyota have proven their reliability.... has Nissan?

In my mind, there's no excuse for an engine breaking down. I don't understand why we don't use HEPA quality air filters and oil filters. Oh wait, yes I do... because they would cost 50 bucks each, instead of 5.

It'd be worth it if your engine lasted twice as long though.. And it would, assuming proper maintenance. We would have great running engines in all these old piece of sh!t cars.

 

[NFS4]

I change it every 4000-5000 miles. But also, I don't hear of many sludge cases in Nissan motors.

Maybe it's b/c the people actually RTFM

 

[rootaxs]

To reiterate what Mad Indian mentioned about having to look at the dyno graph's first. Take the sheets compared in this thread between the 3.5L VQ and the CL-S's 3.2L. The CL-S does make more peak HP but that's it, it's Peak. Just before hitting redline the VQ has more spunk whether it be Torque or HP. And when you're driving down the road in the city you need the power down there.

Eli, i know this engine is not available in the US market but it's an exception to the #'s you posted nevertheless. The R34 Nur and a lot more other high performance vehicles make much more HP and TQ/Litre. I'm very sure each engine from each manufacturer can make so much more power but they prefer to detune it instead. Why? I don't know but i have my "conspiracy theories" behind it

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: wellerdball
performance by efficentcy im not impressed by 245hp from a nissan altima 3.5 liter dohc v6 or the maximas 255 hp at 5800 rpm on the same 3.5 block when hondas 3.0 liter dohc v6 can do 240 and the 3.2 can do 260.YES i have noticed the torque difference but we are talking about a half a liter difference and added weight.

It's Honda's brainwashing that has led you people to believe that horsepower by liter is such an important thing. Why don't they just use two-stroke engines

Basically, WTF cares about horsepower/liter? TOTAL horsepower and MILEAGE are important, NOT hp/liter! Anyways, the more Hp you try to extract from a given engine size the less time that engine will last, especially if you drive it hard.

 

[Gunbuster]

No one cares about Mazda?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Gunbuster
No one cares about Mazda?

The Mazda 6 and Mazda MPV use Ford Duratec V6's...nuff said

 

[prontospyder]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: SuperTool
To sum things up:
Toyota's V6 is a reliable engine IF you change oil every 4000 miles.
Nissan V6 is a reliable engine PERIOD.

Interesting...

What is the oil change interval listed for the Maxima/Altima/etc?? And how often do you change the oil in your car?

The point is, if you don't do what someone TELLS YOU TO DO, what else do you expect?

I think my Altima manual says every 3750 miles for extreme conditions, 7000 for regular conditions. Personally, I wouldn't go past 4000 miles between oil changes. I think on Altimas.net, some guy didn't change his oil on his Altima 2.5S (QR25DE) for 9000 miles and the engine failed.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: prontospyder

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: SuperTool
To sum things up:
Toyota's V6 is a reliable engine IF you change oil every 4000 miles.
Nissan V6 is a reliable engine PERIOD.

Interesting...

What is the oil change interval listed for the Maxima/Altima/etc?? And how often do you change the oil in your car?

The point is, if you don't do what someone TELLS YOU TO DO, what else do you expect?

I think my Altima manual says every 3750 miles for extreme conditions, 7000 for regular conditions. Personally, I wouldn't go past 4000 miles between oil changes. I think on Altimas.net, some guy didn't change his oil on his Altima 2.5S (QR25DE) for 9000 miles and the engine failed.

Sounds good enough to me

You don't change your oil -- you deserve to get screwed.

 

[cressida]

bla bla bla ... whatever runs.

 

[wellerdball]

Originally posted by: SoloKid
bla bla bla ... whatever runs.

ignorant