Homosexuality

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So sad that a religion of love is used to condemn. There is, I suppose, on contradiction however obvious, that a fanatic can't buy into. Condemnation of homosexuality comes from a personal hell, not from God. Those who condemn do so because they are condemned already.

Religion is not used to condemn, it is used to save from condemnation.

Ever heard of Romans 8:1?
Therefore, there is now no condemnation fo those who are in Christ Jesus....

We have condemned ourselves by sinning. Christianity saves those who believe, it doesn't condemn everyone else more than they are already condemned.

And so let me get this straight; you are saying that because I am a Christian, I am condemned. So I go out and condemn everyone else to make myself feel better?

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: LadyJessica

What's wrong is wrong, whether or not we are aware of it, whether we ignore it, whether we pretend it's okay and acceptable, whether or not it was done once or a thousand times, or whether we have the mental faculties to know something is wrong or not.

Things are considered "wrong" only because we exist as "intelligent" entities to interpret them that way. Is there anything wrong with a volcano erupting? Is there anything wrong with an animal eating another animal? Or how about one animal killing another animal just because it exists? How about just killing on the face of it?

If we KNOW it's wrong and choose to do so anyways, it's worse than if noone has EVER told you it was wrong. How much worse? Does it matter? Is this question only asked with one purpose behind it? To discredit God's law so you can choose to ignore it with a clean conscience?

Again, we only know things are wrong because other people tell us that such things are wrong. Why do we wear clothing? Because other people tell us that we must wear clothing or else. Why is sex before marriage "wrong"? Because other people say it is. There is no real fundamental reason why one should precede the other.

It's been spelled out pretty clearly what is best for us as a race - but leave it to us to either ignore the rules completely, or just bend them around any which way we want. End result? Just like the very beginning, we want to do anything we darn well please and don't want any limitations, even if they ARE for our own good.

Oh really? Like what? Not eating seafood? Owning slaves?

We know that certain things are wrong not from "people" telling us, but by God telling us (you know that omnipotent guy that kind of created everything in existence just by speaking). I choose to listen to him.

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: LadyJessica

have no idea when God considers a person unable to make their own decisions.

But just out of curiosity, what things do you consider not to be choices (and don't say homosexuality)?

There are plenty of things that aren't choices: genetic makeup, your parents, birth history, intelligence, personality. That's just a few though.

All of those things are pre-determined by God. I am sorry to tell you that I don't know why he makes certain people the way that they are, he just does. Once again, I will ask him when I get there (you can too if you want).

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Metalloid15

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So sad that a religion of love is used to condemn. There is, I suppose, on contradiction however obvious, that a fanatic can't buy into. Condemnation of homosexuality comes from a personal hell, not from God. Those who condemn do so because they are condemned already.

Religion is not used to condemn, it is used to save from condemnation.

Ever heard of Romans 8:1?
Therefore, there is now no condemnation fo those who are in Christ Jesus....

We have condemned ourselves by sinning. Christianity saves those who believe, it doesn't condemn everyone else more than they are already condemned.

And so let me get this straight; you are saying that because I am a Christian, I am condemned. So I go out and condemn everyone else to make myself feel better?

Christianity saves those who believe christianity will save them.

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Metalloid15

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
So sad that a religion of love is used to condemn. There is, I suppose, on contradiction however obvious, that a fanatic can't buy into. Condemnation of homosexuality comes from a personal hell, not from God. Those who condemn do so because they are condemned already.

Religion is not used to condemn, it is used to save from condemnation.

Ever heard of Romans 8:1?
Therefore, there is now no condemnation fo those who are in Christ Jesus....

We have condemned ourselves by sinning. Christianity saves those who believe, it doesn't condemn everyone else more than they are already condemned.

And so let me get this straight; you are saying that because I am a Christian, I am condemned. So I go out and condemn everyone else to make myself feel better?

Christianity saves those who believe christianity will save them.

Well I don't know many Christians who don't believe Christianity will save them. So what is your point?

 

[nakedfrog]

My point is anyone that's not a christian doesn't need to be "saved."

And as far as the original question of this thread, given the choices, I would have to say it's a biological mutation that has survived. Doesn't really do any good, doesn't really do any harm--not unlike the appendix.

 

[Moonbeam]

But Moonbeam, don't call me a bigot just because I say that homosexuality is wrong.
------------------------------------
Bigot:

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

You are a bigot because you clasically fit the definition of a bigot. Sorry

And as soon as you set up the fiction that there's but one truth, your path that leads to safety and everybody else is out of luck, you condemm people simply by the intellectual construct pretending they condemn themselves. What God would turn his back on a good man of any ilk. I wouldn't. It's contradictory to assume I'm better than God. How could I be better than your God. I can't believe is somebody so small or vane. It just doesn't make sense. Can't you see that. Why have some contorted explanation for everything?

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But Moonbeam, don't call me a bigot just because I say that homosexuality is wrong.
------------------------------------
Bigot:

2. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

You are a bigot because you clasically fit the definition of a bigot. Sorry

And as soon as you set up the fiction that there's but one truth, your path that leads to safety and everybody else is out of luck, you condemm people simply by the intellectual construct pretending they condemn themselves. What God would turn his back on a good man of any ilk. I wouldn't. It's contradictory to assume I'm better than God. How could I be better than your God. I can't believe is somebody so small or vane. It just doesn't make sense. Can't you see that. Why have some contorted explanation for everything?

By that definition, I am a bigot. That just isn't the same definition you used earlier. But I agree, I do believe undoubtfully in the Bible. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing I will find out later in life now won't I?

And please define for me what "a good man" is. Without Jesus, none of us is righteous.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Without Jesus paying for our sins, there is no such thing as a "good man."

And I condemn no one. Salvation is open for anyone who accepts it. Don't blame me because people go to Hell, it is their own fault.

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
My point is anyone that's not a christian doesn't need to be "saved."

And as far as the original question of this thread, given the choices, I would have to say it's a biological mutation that has survived. Doesn't really do any good, doesn't really do any harm--not unlike the appendix.

So on the judgement day, God is going to look at you and say
"You don't believe in any of that crap anyways, so you don't need me. You are perfect just as you are. Come on in."

God probably won't say crap, but you get my point.

 

[LunarRay]

I don't know if what Jesus actually said is what has been handed down and translated from Greek, Aramaic and what not except that he must have said "Love thy neighbor as thy self" no caviat... no exceptions... it is the nature of Jesus (God) to demand this of us.. it seems to me.

Some here have said that Gay folks are creatures of their enviornment.... not true... imperical evidence supports the contrary... Your genetic makeup and any defects therein control chemically and every other way who you are.. your enviornment can't change that... other than remedial action like lithium or zoloft for Bipolar.. Smog and pollutants, etc. The chemicals that abound in your bodies the syapsi that allow passage. The cancer that attacks the lungs of a long distance runner but not the chain smoker are features of your genes. True you can work in a coal mine and die from the affect... enviornment... but not how you think.. Some gays no doubt find comfort in the relationship that is psychological (behavior) that can be modified... see Skinner.. but, many are gay because chemically they have no choice in the matter. Unless we seek to chemically "correct" the "problem" assuming there is a problem.

It could be argued that we are being challenged by God to answer the question WWGD that my grand kids where on their wrists... not as confinement tools but, rather, as an outward manifestation of love to all... God, it seems to me would say something like "see to the log in your own eye before looking to the splinter in anothers" Only he will judge us (as I see it) and that means (to me) I don't have the right to be a bigot... or a littleot either..

 

[TheShiz]

ok, if evolution is false and we came from adam and eve, then why are humans so varied? i've never heard a good "christian" answer for this.

 

[Metalloid]

Originally posted by: TheShiz
ok, if evolution is false and we came from adam and eve, then why are humans so varied? i've never heard a good "christian" answer for this.

I take it you mean why are there different races, why are people different heights? Things of that sort.

God created EVERYONE. We didn't just come from Adam and Eve. Sure, your parents created you in the physical sense, but who created the sperm and the egg that you came from? God. He created all of us differently. Just because it started with 2 people doesn't mean we should all be the same. That is the best answer I can give, hope it helps.

 

[Letitride]

Everyone has a different view about homosexuality. Many say they were born like that while others say people say they learned it. No i dont think everyone is gay. It just that person perference.

 

[TheShiz]

Originally posted by: Metalloid15

Originally posted by: TheShiz
ok, if evolution is false and we came from adam and eve, then why are humans so varied? i've never heard a good "christian" answer for this.

I take it you mean why are there different races, why are people different heights? Things of that sort.

God created EVERYONE. We didn't just come from Adam and Eve. Sure, your parents created you in the physical sense, but who created the sperm and the egg that you came from? God. He created all of us differently. Just because it started with 2 people doesn't mean we should all be the same. That is the best answer I can give, hope it helps.

well that does not dismiss evolution, couldn't god have created us to be evolving creatures?

 

[TheShiz]

99.999% of the species that have ever existed on earth are now extinct, so why did god create them if he knew they would not survive?

 

[Metalloid]

TheShiz: I am not the person to ask. I think you know what I mean.

 

[TheShiz]

Originally posted by: Metalloid15
TheShiz: I am not the person to ask. I think you know what I mean.

nice cop out.

 

[Moonbeam]

And I condemn no one. Salvation is open for anyone who accepts it. Don't blame me because people go to Hell, it is their own fault.
-------------------------------
What a terrible thing to say to beautiful children born perfect in the world. You're going to hell and it's your fault. No no no. It's your fault you say terrible things like that. It's a nasty mean vindictive way of looking at life. The only way I could sleep at night, if I thought like that, is if I thought I was saved. Then of course I could sleep in the bliss of ignorant indifference. I got mine. Too bad about you. Sounds like hell to me.

 

[TheShiz]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
And I condemn no one. Salvation is open for anyone who accepts it. Don't blame me because people go to Hell, it is their own fault.
-------------------------------
What a terrible thing to say to beautiful children born perfect in the world. You're going to hell and it's your fault. No no no. It's your fault you say terrible things like that. It's a nasty mean vindictive way of looking at life. The only way I could sleep at night, if I thought like that, is if I thought I was saved. Then of course I could sleep in the bliss of ignorant indifference. I got mine. Too bad about you. Sounds like hell to me.

how weak is our omnipotent god to require our faith in it, that right there shows that either god is not omnipotent, or christians are wrong, lol. so either way christians are wrong.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Metalloid15

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
My point is anyone that's not a christian doesn't need to be "saved."

And as far as the original question of this thread, given the choices, I would have to say it's a biological mutation that has survived. Doesn't really do any good, doesn't really do any harm--not unlike the appendix.

So on the judgement day, God is going to look at you and say
"You don't believe in any of that crap anyways, so you don't need me. You are perfect just as you are. Come on in."

God probably won't say crap, but you get my point.

Here's the thing; when the person you're saying that to has no belief in your religious structure, it only means something to you. I hope it makes you feel better to think bad things will happen to me when I die.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: TheShiz
ok, if evolution is false and we came from adam and eve, then why are humans so varied? i've never heard a good "christian" answer for this.

Evolution is not false... Darwin didn't spend all that time sailing about on Beagle kissing lizzards and stuff only to come up with a fairy tale.. All creature "adapt" "change" etc... we are bigger physcially than the generations that preexisted us... and we adapt reasonably well in the short term too... the question is are Humans the first of their kind or a mutation or evolution of some other creature.. given the absence of a link the question is open to most of us.. who choose to opt one way or another. I choose my way because it comforts me to believe in God because the alternative seems so...... empty. We came from Noah... I don't know about adam and eve... read the beginning where the bible talks about sons of man and sons of God.... who lived with the sons and daughters of man.... God, it seems got rid of the most of them.. so.
Since you get genes from both parents there is no way to create uniformity... (aside from identical twins) compound that through the ages... and you get variety... include freedom and you get thought that flows from it add evolution and the various places where people live and there it is...

Consider the web feet on Moonbeam... from living in the constant rain up there in SF..

 

[LunarRay]

The Shiz quote

how weak is our omnipotent god to require our faith in it, that right there shows that either god is not omnipotent, or christians are wrong, lol. so either way christians are wrong.[/quote]

God made you free to choose what ever you wish to believe... If God is God then he is omniscience personified. If God is God then his assumption, I'd wager, in giving you the free will and all is that the least you can do is believe in him... that just seems reasonable to me.

I've never talked to God least ways he never answered me with words so I guess some things require faith... Like the Buddist monk who can do things others only marvel at does so with faith... belief... with out that he'd be just ordinary.

Or my daughters favorite... with out faith that what was growing in my belly was a human and not a pumpkin I'd have opted for the pie long before the long cry...

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: Metalloid15

Originally posted by: TheShiz ok, if evolution is false and we came from adam and eve, then why are humans so varied? i've never heard a good "christian" answer for this.

I take it you mean why are there different races, why are people different heights? Things of that sort. God created EVERYONE. We didn't just come from Adam and Eve. Sure, your parents created you in the physical sense, but who created the sperm and the egg that you came from? God. He created all of us differently. Just because it started with 2 people doesn't mean we should all be the same. That is the best answer I can give, hope it helps.

Ahhh, the explanations dumb people come up with

 

[Moonbeam]

rbloedow, you can agrue with some of the stupid ideas people come up to rationalize their beliefs, but science can't tough the question of God. That's something you can believe or not, but never prove one way or the other. But to me, whether there is a God or we created him as a mirrow of what we can become, I just can't see him getting off condemming, er rather havinf homosexuals condemn themselves. Just doesn't make sense.

 

[IGBT]

Aquired behavior..they say it sucks...