judasmachine
Diamond Member
- Sep 15, 2002
- 8,515
- 3
- 81
If only it were that easy. I'm glad you never needed a helping hand, though, you're one of the lucky ones.
If only it were that easy. I'm glad you never needed a helping hand, though, you're one of the lucky ones.
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
- 13,051
- 6
- 81
Originally posted by: judasmachine
I'm a breakup away from being a couch surfer again.
Heh, well like I said, if you ever break out of your chains let us know well find you a roomie in SF, texas is a bad place for a open mind. (sad though, it used to be a music capitol and really fun place, the fundies used to be just err..funny)
UglyCasanova
Lifer
- Mar 25, 2001
- 19,275
- 1,361
- 126
And believe me they are. No one expects to become an addict, be it alcohol or any other drug. For some addicts their is simply no way to overcome their addiction alone, so should society simply abandon them?
I have to ask how old you are, since you apparently don't remember when there weren't many really homeless people out there. In the late 70's (It wasn't Reagan who started it, it was Carter, and the states themselves) they closed about 90% of the mental hospitals across the US. A fair chunk of the people that were put out on the street with a bottle of pills and a check for an apartment and furniture after having been inside, being taken care of for ten or twenty, sometimes more years. Some, a few were ok, but most of them aren't able to hold a job due to their problems, and eventually, they stop their meds and they wind up out on the street, or in jail, where they are totally screwed over.
In a couple years the homeless population exploded. Cities in the western US (I know this because I dealt with these people at work as a casino bouncer/security guard in a Las Vegas casino for over 3 years) bought ex mental patients bus tickets to the next town over, and Vegas was the place picked most often by SF, LA, Alberquerque, Phoenix, Tucson, and of course SLCity police and courts. Of course, the Vegas cops and judges weren't thrilled with this setup and started doing the same thing. "Back at ya!" So, you had these people being shuttled back and forth, some didn't know where they were at after riding the bus 3 or 4 times in a month. Greyhound didn't want them on the buses, talking to themselves, stinking, etc, that's for sure. Finally a Federal Judge ordered one or more of the PDs to stop the "bum bussing", and it did. Officially anyway.
Until the hospitals emptied out, the shelters were pretty much keeping up 100% with the drunks and druggies that were out on the streets and made up most of the homeless prior to the dumping, and I can't think of another term for it, of the mental patients on the streets. After the hospitals closed, they were full and turned away people constantly.
Some of these people turned away wound up in jail, some died from exposure, and some died due to a lack of real medical care.
They didn't ask to be sick, and until 1979 or so, the mental hospital system worked pretty well. In most cases, they were pretty decent places to live, at least for the non violent patients, and since they had a pretty rigid routine, they did ok. But without that routine of being told what to do, they can't function. And there's the whole deal about them not taking their meds. They made them take them in the hospital, on the street, they did whatever, whenever, and some of the meds were worth money, so they just go sold them on the street, and lots of the time, drank that money away..
Did they really save money when they closed the mental hospitals? Maybe at first, but in the long run, who has come out ahead? There are people in prison that don't belong there, victimized by the courts and the other prisoners, too. The homeless shelters have to turn away people. There are all kinds of mentally ill people living in dumpsters and boxes, and again, being abused by other homeless, kids just messing with them, and sometimes, even the police. We pay for prisons, and the police that put them inside, along with the courts.
All in all, they took something that worked, and worked pretty well, and got rid of it to save money. Where is this money that's being saved? What about the BS crimes the ex (and should have been) patients do, that wouldn't have occurred, the more serious stuff that wouldn't have happend, the jail cells that would be freed up for true criminals. IF the polititians, and most of these were state governments, hadn't wanted to "save money, and restore the dignity of these unfortunate people!", there really wouldn't be a homeless problem, and these sad people could have some sort of life.
I voted yes and here are my reasons / experience:
I worked / volunteered at a local shelter for over 6 years. The people who use the shelters are for the most part at the lowest part of their lives. How can someone get a job if they can't launder their clothes or take showers, get a meal or two, and have a warm dry place to sleep at night? Do you think that someone living out of their car, or worse on the street has a chance of getting a chance at a job?
Granted, we had your career boozers or whinos, but they would usually get them selves booted quick enough. In total they made up about 10%, with another 10% being the seriously mentally ill who slipped through the cracks of the system. The rest were people who for various reasons lost their jobs, apts, etc., and just needed a place to stay for anywhere from a few days to a few months. Theye were approx 75% single male, the rest were single females with children (divorced, abandoned, etc). This place was partially federally and state funded, the rest was supplied by donations at the county and city level.
I can say with utter certainty that if programs such as this in place you would see higher rates of crime, and higher rates of death within the whole homeless population (the reason why this shlter was started 15 years ago).
I guess the alternative is to not be humanitarian and let these people die, but that's not a path I choose to take.
Does it feel good to just group people into one of two groups? Wish I could see the world that way, would make things so much easier :roll:
Like I mentioned below, only 10% of the population at our shelter fit your desription. Belive it or not we had a pretty nice zero tolerance policy on alcohol and drugs. And even used breathalizers to enforce it. if you were drunk you had to leave on good terms and come back the next day, which many did.
Stunt
Diamond Member
- Jul 17, 2002
- 9,717
- 2
- 0
The question isn't did we cause homelessness...but...
Did homelessness cause us?
Looking back in history it seems that we were at one time homeless people, nothing was given to us and we made due by foraging for supplies, gathering materials. All these labour intensive tasks (hard work, 12 hour days at least) allowed us to better ourselves through our own ambition to have housing. Don't forget, there are some regions of the world (ie. deserts, arctic) where making a shelter was harder, much like those homeless in cities. It is their decision not to migrate and in the end their success in getting shelter comes down to their own personal ambition...just as it has always been.
Did homelessness cause us?
Looking back in history it seems that we were at one time homeless people, nothing was given to us and we made due by foraging for supplies, gathering materials. All these labour intensive tasks (hard work, 12 hour days at least) allowed us to better ourselves through our own ambition to have housing. Don't forget, there are some regions of the world (ie. deserts, arctic) where making a shelter was harder, much like those homeless in cities. It is their decision not to migrate and in the end their success in getting shelter comes down to their own personal ambition...just as it has always been.
In my opinion, the homeless are our problem.
As mentioned, addiction (drug, booze, etc.) is one of the problems that needs to be addressed but there are so many variables that make homelessness a sandy pit, where everytime you try and climb out, the sides just keep collapsing in on themselves and you can't get any traction and you can't get out.
Just a few observations:
1) Once you're homeless, most likely you've lost your entire support group (co-workers, friends, neighbors, family). We don't like to admit it, but we all need somebody to help us to some extent. It may be minor and we may not acknowledge it, but the support is there. The homeless have lost this.
2) The basics: Try going through a week in your life without a phone or a car or clean clothes or a refrigerator or a real bathroom or a computer or an actual address or any identification.
3) We generally hang out with people of the same rank & station in life. The homeless hang out with other homeless and opportunities rarely present themselves to that group. This of course goes back to the support group concept.
4) The homeless have no representation: If they had a voice (lobbyist in Washington) the the issue could be addressed and perhaps eliminated or at least reduced. The homeless offer nothing and therefore have no representation and therefore receive minimum consideration.
We have the resources to fix the problem, we just need to make it a priority. Hell, if we put the same effort behind defeating homelessness as we are planning to spend on defeating the bird flu, we could really get somewhere.
Just my observations.
As mentioned, addiction (drug, booze, etc.) is one of the problems that needs to be addressed but there are so many variables that make homelessness a sandy pit, where everytime you try and climb out, the sides just keep collapsing in on themselves and you can't get any traction and you can't get out.
Just a few observations:
1) Once you're homeless, most likely you've lost your entire support group (co-workers, friends, neighbors, family). We don't like to admit it, but we all need somebody to help us to some extent. It may be minor and we may not acknowledge it, but the support is there. The homeless have lost this.
2) The basics: Try going through a week in your life without a phone or a car or clean clothes or a refrigerator or a real bathroom or a computer or an actual address or any identification.
3) We generally hang out with people of the same rank & station in life. The homeless hang out with other homeless and opportunities rarely present themselves to that group. This of course goes back to the support group concept.
4) The homeless have no representation: If they had a voice (lobbyist in Washington) the the issue could be addressed and perhaps eliminated or at least reduced. The homeless offer nothing and therefore have no representation and therefore receive minimum consideration.
We have the resources to fix the problem, we just need to make it a priority. Hell, if we put the same effort behind defeating homelessness as we are planning to spend on defeating the bird flu, we could really get somewhere.
Just my observations.
:thumbsup:
Good post, all of this is absolutely true and a good run shelter can provide almost all of this and at a very low cost per person.
HardWarrior
Diamond Member
- Jan 26, 2004
- 4,400
- 23
- 81
Homelessness isn't a problem for me as long as the wife and I are willing to work. Also, just so we don't forget, most people who are homeless are also mentally ill. Just saying "Get a job, slacker!!!" doesn't address the problem. Being that you started this thread cruiser, you should have taken the time to round out your knowledge of the subject matter.
Do you realize how many americans are within a paycheck or two of homelessness? Granted alot of people have family and friends to fall back on, but the rest end up on the street. And on most being mentally ill, please ... My experience showed about 10% ..
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
- 126
In fact saying "GET A JOB SLACKER"......is a damn ignorant expression if you don`t know the circumstances behind that persons homelessness........
May we never forget that.....may we never be in that position where we need to relie on somebody elses generosity in order to live!
May we never forget that.....may we never be in that position where we need to relie on somebody elses generosity in order to live!
HardWarrior
Diamond Member
- Jan 26, 2004
- 4,400
- 23
- 81
Why should I clutter my head with BS hand-wringing like this? As long as I keep my skills sharp and remain smart enough to SAVE some of what I earn I'll be fine. BTW smartass, your "expereince" is wrong and probably derived from too much TV watching.
yeah... like rob stores or break into houses, putting them in jail, where -- you guessed it -- we pay for them (but even moreso in that situation).
I worked at a soup kitchen in an inner city (Jersey City) all through high school. there were some alcholics and people with serious mental disorders. but there were also people who were just excessively down on their luck. lost their job, couldn't find a new one, got evicted from their apartments, had no family/friends to fall back on. and once you're homeless, finding a job without help is near impossible. not even McDonalds is going to hire someone who hasn't showered in a week and hasn't washed their clothes in even longer.
judasmachine
Diamond Member
- Sep 15, 2002
- 8,515
- 3
- 81
prison is a damn cushy place to those who are sleeping on park benches with a only a coat that they dumpstered to protect them from the rain, sun, heat, and cold. so why the hell not? society isn't paying that much for them to be homeless, it's usually charities that pay for shelters. but it's all of us that pay to keep the prisons running.
HardWarrior
Diamond Member
- Jan 26, 2004
- 4,400
- 23
- 81
Wow, you really think a prison cell is that much better than living on the streets? You must not live in the US.
You part of that statistic you made up? Sure hope you never have to face what happens to alot of people. I chalk the rest up to being a troll.
Ok, here are some pretty solid numbers on the homeless
More Homeless Mentally Ill Than Expected According To UCSD Study: Interventions Urged
The prevalence of homelessness in persons with serious mental illness is 15 percent, a higher percentage than suggested in previous studies, according to new research by investigators at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) School of Medicine.
That isn't far off from the 10% I witnessed personally, not from a tv as you claim.
More Homeless Mentally Ill Than Expected According To UCSD Study: Interventions Urged
The prevalence of homelessness in persons with serious mental illness is 15 percent, a higher percentage than suggested in previous studies, according to new research by investigators at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) School of Medicine.
That isn't far off from the 10% I witnessed personally, not from a tv as you claim.
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