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holy gruesomeness!!

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<< The Palestinians were told to stay when Israel was formed, they ran to other Arab nations expecting a prompt Arab victory over the newly formed Israel and that they would then be able to return home. Didn't happen. They left their homes and were not welcomed into other Arab nations. >>


Right now, which matters most, how things were done in the past or how things will be done in the future?
 
the palestinians could have ended this a long time ago. they didn't, probably because they know they have the entire muslim population backing them up to a certain degree. just think if the palestinians were the minority like the jews are in that region. none of this would have happened.
 


<<

<<

<< One thing that puzzles me, so many people here think that when the Israeli military kills a Palestinian child its the Palestinians fault and when the Palestinians kill a Israeli child it is the Palestinians fault. Isnt that kinda seeing things balck and white? >>

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that you're referring to an Israeli child killed in a suicide bombing and a Palestinian child killed in a raid to root out terrorists. Does that answer your question? I think you were seeing it black and white - Isreali kills Palestinian child, Israeli's fault; Palestinian kills Israeli chil, Palestinian's fault. >>


The reason is a different matter, the Palestinian Terrorist are trying to make a political point to the Isreali people and the Isreali army is trying to make a point to the Palestinian people. I have noticed so many people here say that it was the palestinians fault when a palestinian child dies when the Isrealis are "making a point". >>

By rejecting peace so many times because they have an all-or-nothing attitude, what point are the Palestinians trying to make? Killing civilians to make a political point is okay by your standards? I know, you're going to come at me with your typical "double standard" argument, but Israel is going after TERRORISTS when civilians are killed. Perhaps if the terrorists were not such cowards as to hide out in civilian areas, far less would be killed?!

Again:

<< I have one thing to say, if the Palestinian/Arab extremist groups cared about the innocent civilian Palestinians getting killed they would not hide out in residential Palestinian areas as civilians. They also would not send their suicide bombers in to blatantly civilian quarters (pizza shops, discos, etc.) as civilians to do their dirty work. How is Israel supposed to tell the difference? They have to find the terrorists and if that means alleged innocent Palestinians die in the pursuit of these known terrorists, what are they supposed to do, stop and accept more terrorism? The Palestinian extremist groups need Palestinian civilians to die, how else would they get sympathy? They use it as an excuse to retaliate against the Israeli retaliation. They use it as propaganda to gain sympathy and an excuse to continue their terrorist pursuits. >>

 


<< To say that palestinians are unable to make peace is wrong. They were already doing it. It fell apart when their israeli counterpart (Rabin) was killed. >>


And now the only one on the Isreali side that is trying to find a peaceful way is Peres, one of the people I would nominate as a candidate for the nobel peace price.. again.
 
To say that palestinians are unable to make peace is wrong. They were already doing it. It fell apart when their israeli counterpart (Rabin) was killed.

OK. Then why wouldn't Arafat make peace when he had another opportunity with Barak under the Clinton-brokered agreement?
 


<< By rejecting peace so many times because they have an all-or-nothing attitude, what point are the Palestinians trying to make? Killing civilians to make a political point is okay by your standards? I know, you're going to come at me with your typical "double standard" argument, but Israel is going after TERRORISTS when civilians are killed. Perhaps if the terrorists were not such cowards as to hide out in civilian areas, far less would be killed?! >>


Point, probably end the occupation, send all the settlers back and the ever staying point that will stay on both sides, revenge for the last attack.
The Isrealis arent actually doing a good job with their way of going after terrorist when they capture or kill some and throw fuel on the fire that results in more normal citizens in becoming terrorists.

And I quote Sharon again.

<< The broader thinking behind Israel's military escalation was unveiled this week by Mr Sharon, who said Israel must kill ever larger numbers of Palestinians until they submit. >>

Is this a person that wants peace or a person that wants victory?
 


<< Vespasian,
Can you have a discussion with out flaming the other party? >>


First of all, stop pestering me to answer your questions. That would be a start.

Secondly, how is what I'm doing flamming? There is so much hatred for Jews (and I'm a Jew, by the way) in this world that I'm sure there is going to be another major attempt this century to exterminate the Jews (because killing 1/3 of the Jewish population wasn't enough in many people's eyes).

 


<<
And I quote Sharon again.

<< The broader thinking behind Israel's military escalation was unveiled this week by Mr Sharon, who said Israel must kill ever larger numbers of Palestinians until they submit. >>

Is this a person that wants peace or a person that wants victory? >>

[/i] >>

What happened to the rest of the article? Oh yeah, and it isn't actually a quote unless there are quotation marks and it isn't a paraphrasing.

By the way, I'm done for the night. I've participated in this thread long enough, wasted enough time, I have some work to do for school now. I think I got my point across.
 
Vespasian,
If you are not trying to have a discussion in these threads then why do you post?

I do not like the hate for jews in this world and to me this conflict has nothing to do with Israel being a jewis state or not, they could be Buddists for all I care.
 


<< What happened to the rest of the article? Oh yeah, and it isn't actually a quote unless there are quotation marks and it isn't a paraphrasing.

By the way, I'm done for the night. I've participated in this thread long enough, wasted enough time, I have some work to do for school now. I think I got my point across. >>


I posted the article in another thread
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,664601,00.html


<< "They must be beaten. We have to cause them heavy casualties, and then they will know they cannot keep using terror and win political achievements," he said. >>


And who is using terror to win political achievments, both of them
rolleye.gif


Allright, goodnight and thanks for this discussion 🙂
 


<< The war of 1948 started a day after the state of Israel was created. It was an attemept by multiple Arab nations to destroy Israel from the get-go. And Israel occupied Gaza and the West Bank only after Egypt, Jordan, and Syria were in the beginning stages of of mounting a major offensive against Israel for the purpose (again) of destroying Israel. >>



During that war Israel committed large-scale ethnic clensing. Thousand of palestinians were driven from their homes by force. There was a book about this but I can't find the link to it (I have mentioned it in one of the other discussions here). According to it, Israeli forces occupied several towns that were reserved for palestinians. Palestinians didn't occupy any towns reserved for jews. And surrounding states got involved after israelis started driving palestinians out. Sorry again for no link, but I'll try to find it.

Other notable things are:



<< Was the part of Palestine assigned to a Jewish state in mortal danger from the Arab armies?

"The Arab League hastily called for its member countries to send regular army troops into Palestine. They were ordered to secure only the sections of Palestine given to the Arabs under the partition plan. But these regular armies were ill equipped and lacked any central command to coordinate their efforts...[Jordan's King Abdullah] promised [the Israelis and the British] that his troops, the Arab Legion, the only real fighting force among the Arab armies, would avoid fighting with Jewish settlements...Yet Western historians record this as the moment when the young state of Israel fought off "the overwhelming hordes' of five Arab countries. In reality, the Israeli offensive against the Palestinians intensified." >>





<< Ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine

"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine." >>





<< Didn't the Palestinians leave their homes voluntarily during the 1948 war?

"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action - whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it- or its predecessors - actively created." Peretz Kidron, quoted in "Blaming the Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens. >>



Source. But I guess that's biased too eh?
 


<< To say that palestinians are unable to make peace is wrong. They were already doing it. It fell apart when their israeli counterpart (Rabin) was killed.

OK. Then why wouldn't Arafat make peace when he had another opportunity with Barak under the Clinton-brokered agreement? >>



to my knowledge, the terms of that deal were unacceptable. they were (among other things):

1. The settlements stay in the west bank
2. Refugees do not return
3. Israel controls the water
4. Palestinian state shall not have an army
5. Israel reserves the right to control Palestines foreing policies
6. Israel shall have the right to fly it's military planes over Palestine
7. Israel has the right to set up military bases between Palestine and it's neighbours.

etc.
 


<< One of these days the world will learn that the more international attention the conflict receives, the worse the situtation becomes. If you want the violence to subside, don't intervene. The Bush admininstration had the right approach up to September 11th >>



by worse situation i assume u mean israels lack of respect of human rights comes out in the air

yes, lets not intrevene STOP SENDING WEAPONS TO ISRAEL....

 


<< Vespasian,
If you are not trying to have a discussion in these threads then why do you post? >>


When I don't answer one of your questions right away, you post again just to tell me to answer it. You are obviously trying to push my buttons.

And Hitler was wrong. Switzerland is not the a$$hole of Europe; you are.
 


<< And Hitler was wrong. Switzerland is not the a$$hole of Europe; you are. >>



Even if you disagree with him, is there a need for the name-calling?
 


<< When I don't answer one of your questions right away, you post again just to tell me to answer it. You are obviously trying to push my buttons. >>


No, I'm trying to have a discussion, when I see you post replies regarding posts made after my post with the question then I start to think you are dismissing my question and thats why I asked again, I'm sorry if you took it the other way but I was not trying to push your buttons. All I want is to have a normal civil discussion with people who have different views than mine, that happened last time few months ago when I was discussing this same subject with a member here who lives in Isreal, happens waay to seldom. Most of the time it turns just into a stupid flamewar and I am to tired of flame wars.
 


<<

<< And Hitler was wrong. Switzerland is not the a$$hole of Europe; you are. >>



Even if you disagree with him, is there a need for the name-calling? >>


Because I'm tired of the games he plays with people on here.

But how can you even take the moral highground when you're posting disinformation?

 


<< Because I'm tired of the games he plays with people on here. >>


What games? the game of trying to have a civil discussion about world issues without someone resulting to flaming?
Many people here make it very very hard for me to win that game yeah
rolleye.gif
 


<<

<< When I don't answer one of your questions right away, you post again just to tell me to answer it. You are obviously trying to push my buttons. >>


No, I'm trying to have a discussion, when I see you post replies regarding posts made after my post with the question then I start to think you are dismissing my question and thats why I asked again, I'm sorry if you took it the other way but I was not trying to push your buttons. All I want is to have a normal civil discussion with people who have different views than mine, that happened last time few months ago when I was discussing this same subject with a member here who lives in Isreal, happens waay to seldom. Most of the time it turns just into a stupid flamewar and I am to tired of flame wars. >>


Discussing this issue is easier for you because you're an outside observer. I, however, take everything people say on here about the Israeli/Palestinian issue very personally because I have family living in Israel. Therefore, if anyone attacks Israel verbally, I feel that I myself am being attacked.
 


<< Discussing this issue is easier for you because you're an outside observer. I, however, take everything people say on here about the Israel/Palestinian issue very personally because I have family living in Israel. Therefore, it anyone verbally attacks Israel, I feel that I myself am being attacked. >>


I understand, not easy to be in your position 🙁 Just so you know I have nothing against Israel and I favor an Israeli state but I just dont like how Sharons government is handling the Palestine situation.


.just found one typo
 
Vespasian...not to sound like a complete a$$...but you keep bringing up hitler....do you want us to cry for you?

anyway...your opinion (i can't blame you) is bias...

But some of you people are just ridiculous. I mean the palestinian child thing was just pushing it over the edge. Some of you (idiots) admitted to believing that a palestian child's death is the palestinians fault...

And the person who has structered their arguments best is Nemesis77. When he makes a point...he backs himself with something....

The rest of you just pull info out of nowhere, because you have convinced yourself you "know what is going on." Anyway...read read read (preferably unbiased sources), come to a conclusion...then post an opinion worth our time reading...

oh..btw..i love how some of you portray the bastard sharon as a man attempting to make "peace"

LOL!
 


<< But how can you even take the moral highground when you're posting disinformation? >>



Posting disinformation? Like what? If I post information that show Israel in a bad light, it's automatically "disinformation", but if someone post information showing palestinians in a bad light, it just proves that palestinians are assholes and criminals?

That is what I call a bias.

The reason I have posted the things that I have, is to show the people who automatically think that Israel = Good, palestinians = bad, that there is more to the conflict that meets the eye. Both sides have done plenty of bad things, including Israel. Israel is NOT the innocent victim that has done nothing wrong. They have done plenty of things that are just wrong. But the palestinians aren't any better either.
 
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