Holocaust Denier Sentenced to 5 Years

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger
Anyone's rights extend only as far as they conflict with someone else's rights; I'm glad to see something being done about people like him.

That guy's a moron, but it's sad to see that people like you are willing to send someone to jail for being politically incorrect.

Politically incorrect is saying "black man" instead of "african american man." This fella was an anti-jew propaganda worker, not a PETA PR guy, but a pro-Nazi PR guy. There is a huge difference between a standard political activist and people like this, granted the lines sometimes get fuzzy, but the lines are there. The Holocaust is a matter of history, not opinion, thus there are right and wrong answers.

It is illegal in the US to yell fire in a crowded theater etc, and this is for a reason, just as there is a reason to punish people for saying things like this guy is. Obviously the two scenarios aren't exactly the same; in the theater people die in five or ten minutes, with this guy it might take decades for his words to get people killed or repressed through nazistic policies and sentiments, but either way serious harm is done.

The guy is entitled to his view, even if it is wrong and you don't like it. He shouldn't go to jail just for saying words.

You're not very convincing. Don't just state things, give me a reason to believe you, an argument.

edit: Just saying words? The man isn't making random sounds, he's trying to convince people that the Nazis weren't nearly as bad as they're cracked up to be. People's words come out of their minds, their beliefs. How likely is it that a 67 year old man is just screwing around trying to troll Jews just for kicks and giggles? He's been at this since the '70s, this isn't just something he started doing because he got bored over the weekend and wanted to stir people up. He was ~27 then, maybe that's how it started, but you don't stick with something for forty years just cuz.

 

[Regs]

War was made once before in that country for saying those words.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

You're not very convincing. Don't just state things, give me a reason to believe you, an argument.

The way the law is currently written, you can go to jail in Germany for denying the holocaust. You don't even have to incite violence against Jews, merely stating that the event didn't happen is cause for jail time.

While he's certainly wrong, I don't see how that denying history is a violent act in itself that deserves jail time. He's stating an opinion, one which does not incite violence and does not cause people to panic.

You can claim that other massacres didn't happen, such as the purges during Stalin's rule. That's apparently ok. But say that the holocaust didn't happen, it's off to jail for you. I guess some people carry more political power than others.

 

[ThePresence]

I am Jewish and I have lost family members in the camps. I think holocaust deniers are the scum of the earth. But I don't support putting them in prison. Putting them in prison shows that we are afraid of their viewpoint and have to forcefully shut them up. It strengthens their hateful and absurd position. Let them spout their nonsense. Who cares. It's just a person with a mouth. He's not in a position of power to do anything. However, you have to understand that the Germans are understandably paranoid about this entire issue.

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

You can claim that other massacres didn't happen, such as the purges during Stalin's rule. That's apparently ok. But say that the holocaust didn't happen, it's off to jail for you. I guess some people carry more political power than others.

Yes, that is a real shame. I'd guess it's because there's not as many Stalin sympethizers as Nazi sympethizers, but I know that's not true...

ThePresence has an interesting thought, if we ignore them they will be like the people standing on street corners yelling about the end of the world. I could see that backfiring if we ignore it, but I could also see that working very well if we do a good job of teaching the truth in schools.

 

[Rebasxer]

Hate speech should be protected. No exceptions. This man wasn't jailed for inciting another Night of Broken Glass, he wasn't actively starting riots. Looks like Germany lost the SS just in time to be trampled by the PC police.

 

[Praxis1452]

why is everyone getting so upset? It's not your ****** country. I find this attitude everywhere. It's their country and their laws. If you don't live there, don't judge. Most of what I see in this thread simply spouts how "great" the U.S. is. Sure you disagree but it's not your right to. Live there as a citizen and then disagree, else your opinion is not only meaningless but useless as well. Simple fact: noone cares what your opinion is in the grand old US of A.

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
why is everyone getting so upset? It's not your ****** country. I find this attitude everywhere. It's their country and their laws. If you don't live there, don't judge. Most of what I see in this thread simply spouts how "great" the U.S. is. Sure you disagree but it's not your right to. Live there as a citizen and then disagree, else your opinion is not only meaningless but useless as well. Simple fact: noone cares what your opinion is in the grand old US of A.

So you are OK with what is going on in Darfur, and think we should look the other way?

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
why is everyone getting so upset? It's not your ****** country. I find this attitude everywhere. It's their country and their laws. If you don't live there, don't judge. Most of what I see in this thread simply spouts how "great" the U.S. is. Sure you disagree but it's not your right to. Live there as a citizen and then disagree, else your opinion is not only meaningless but useless as well. Simple fact: noone cares what your opinion is in the grand old US of A.

So you are OK with what is going on in Darfur, and think we should look the other way?

So far we haven't figured out how to have our cake and eat it too, either we're closeted and extremely introverted, or we're out saving the world whether or not it wants to be saved.

That said, this debate has been in the States for years, that's what started the Civil War; the North said the Union was slavery-free, and the South said hey we can do what we want on our own land. Obviously the interventionists won the war, but that just forced people to do it, it didn't change their minds. Integration was also forced, but in my experience it has worked pretty well. (I don't mean we're Utopia, I mean it is markedly better than it was thirty years ago, and is still getting better.)

 

[Brainonska511]

 

[IAteYourMother]

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
why is everyone getting so upset? It's not your ****** country. I find this attitude everywhere. It's their country and their laws. If you don't live there, don't judge. Most of what I see in this thread simply spouts how "great" the U.S. is. Sure you disagree but it's not your right to. Live there as a citizen and then disagree, else your opinion is not only meaningless but useless as well. Simple fact: noone cares what your opinion is in the grand old US of A.

So you are OK with what is going on in Darfur, and think we should look the other way?

So far we haven't figured out how to have our cake and eat it too, either we're closeted and extremely introverted, or we're out saving the world whether or not it wants to be saved.

That said, this debate has been in the States for years, that's what started the Civil War; the North said the Union was slavery-free, and the South said hey we can do what we want on our own land. Obviously the interventionists won the war, but that just forced people to do it, it didn't change their minds. Integration was also forced, but in my experience it has worked pretty well. (I don't mean we're Utopia, I mean it is markedly better than it was thirty years ago, and is still getting better.)

So, has anyone told you to shut up yet?

 

[yankeesfan]

Here's an Op-Ed piece on this topic: http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8592923

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
why is everyone getting so upset? It's not your ****** country. I find this attitude everywhere. It's their country and their laws. If you don't live there, don't judge. Most of what I see in this thread simply spouts how "great" the U.S. is. Sure you disagree but it's not your right to. Live there as a citizen and then disagree, else your opinion is not only meaningless but useless as well. Simple fact: noone cares what your opinion is in the grand old US of A.

So you are OK with what is going on in Darfur, and think we should look the other way?

So far we haven't figured out how to have our cake and eat it too, either we're closeted and extremely introverted, or we're out saving the world whether or not it wants to be saved.

That said, this debate has been in the States for years, that's what started the Civil War; the North said the Union was slavery-free, and the South said hey we can do what we want on our own land. Obviously the interventionists won the war, but that just forced people to do it, it didn't change their minds. Integration was also forced, but in my experience it has worked pretty well. (I don't mean we're Utopia, I mean it is markedly better than it was thirty years ago, and is still getting better.)

That's not what started the Civil War.

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: IAteYourMother

So, has anyone told you to shut up yet?

This is OT, you haven't learned to ignore lunatics yet?

I often think out loud, so what if you don't like the way I think? Just don't post, I'll see that nobody cares to talk about the subject, and I'll shut up.

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven

That's not what started the Civil War.

C'mon, don't just say "you're wrong," say "this is why you're wrong." ("You're wrong because you're a dumass" doesn't count.)

Every history class I've been in has said that the conflict was over how much power the States and Federal Government had, specifically over whether or not the Feds could outlaw slavery everywhere when some states overwhelmingly wanted it.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
why is everyone getting so upset? It's not your ****** country. I find this attitude everywhere. It's their country and their laws. If you don't live there, don't judge.

That reasoning worked really well in the 1940's, didn't it?

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: ADDAvenger

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven

That's not what started the Civil War.

C'mon, don't just say "you're wrong," say "this is why you're wrong." ("You're wrong because you're a dumass" doesn't count.)

Every history class I've been in has said that the conflict was over how much power the States and Federal Government had, specifically over whether or not the Feds could outlaw slavery everywhere when some states overwhelmingly wanted it.

The topic of the real reasons behind the Civil War has been discussed to death, feel free to search the archived threads in ATOT.

 

[IAteYourMother]

Originally posted by: Praxis1452
why is everyone getting so upset? It's not your ****** country. I find this attitude everywhere. It's their country and their laws. If you don't live there, don't judge. Most of what I see in this thread simply spouts how "great" the U.S. is. Sure you disagree but it's not your right to. Live there as a citizen and then disagree, else your opinion is not only meaningless but useless as well. Simple fact: noone cares what your opinion is in the grand old US of A.

what the fvck does that have to do with anything? I can't discuss what's going on in Darfur, North Korea, Somalia, or Germany because I'm not a citizen of that country? Please, perhaps then you'd like to actually defend this blatant violation of civil rights

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: KLin

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I'm glad we value free speech in our country.

Can you shout "fire" whenever you feel like it?

Of course you can.

Try shouting bomb on an airplane or airport.

Zuendel was acquitted here in Canada a few years back (his lawyer is my next door neighbor). He often held "free speech" meetings at the local library which ban the group shortly after the trial. Zuendel also help found the KKK Kamp For Kids here on Vancouver Island (the camp closed down soon after the trial as well).

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.douglaschristie.com/Paterson.htm">An Uneasy Peace:
At 56, controversial lawyer Douglas Christie now worries for his children</a>

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I'm glad we value free speech in our country.

Can you shout "fire" whenever you feel like it?

Darn you're right. We have no freedom here.

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven

The topic of the real reasons behind the Civil War has been discussed to death, feel free to search the archived threads in ATOT.

Didn't realize that was an "OMG not again" subject, sorry. I'll take your word for it though, it's late and I'm not so sure I want to be getting my history from a tech forum anyway.

 

[chcarnage]

For your interest, the US has decided to extradite a holocaust denier, too. Chicago didn't want to be the soapbox for Rudolf in 2005. So much for freedom of speech if you miss the required passport.

Two things I'd like to clarify:
Not all organisations of the extremist right are illegal in Germany. There are even three political parties. Two of them won seats in one federal state parliament each but they usually are just the laughing stock for everybody else.
Not all laws emphasize the holocaust, some countries avenge genocide denial in general. It's just that holocaust denial happens much more often than Gulag denial. Conspiracy theorists are like flies. At the moment 9 of the 27 EU members have laws against holocaust denial.

The rest of this thread doesn't introduce me to new arguments. While I think that the state shouldn't interfere with people's actions more than necessary, the only argument presented against genocide denial laws is the slippery slope argument and this one isn't backed up by history.

Some users here say they wouldn't mind if this "POS" was hit by lightning or a bus, and I'm sure others would applaud if a holocaust victim smacked him in the kisser, so why is it acceptable when mother nature or civil courage does it but not when it's the law?

Personally I think that both the American and the German version of freedom of speech have their advantages but the opinion that Germany can't criticise non-European countries because of this law is not supportable.

 

[IAteYourMother]

Originally posted by: chcarnage
For your interest, the US has decided to extradite a holocaust denier, too. Chicago didn't want to be the soapbox for Rudolf in 2005. So much for freedom of speech if you miss the required passport.

Two things I'd like to clarify:
Not all organisations of the extremist right are illegal in Germany. There are even three political parties. Two of them won seats in one federal state parliament each but they usually are just the laughing stock for everybody else.
Not all laws emphasize the holocaust, some countries avenge genocide denial in general. It's just that holocaust denial happens much more often than Gulag denial. Conspiracy theorists are like flies. At the moment 9 of the 27 EU members have laws against holocaust denial.

The rest of this thread doesn't introduce me to new arguments. While I think that the state shouldn't interfere with people's actions more than necessary, the only argument presented against genocide denial laws is the slippery slope argument and this one isn't backed up by history.

Some users here say they wouldn't mind if this "POS" was hit by lightning or a bus, and I'm sure others would applaud if a holocaust victim smacked him in the kisser, so why is it acceptable when mother nature or civil courage does it but not when it's the law?

You mean free speech isn't a strong enough argument for you?

 

[DigDug]

I'm glad here in the US you can still express whatever idea or opinion you want.

We don't have free speech now, never did, and were never meant to have it. Stop being damn naive. Why does everyone think America has some sort of licentious freedom for all. Yes, we have more freedoms than most, this idea of absolute freedom is some sort of childhood myth that never goes away along with Santa Claus.

Go outside and walk naked. See what happens to you.
Go outside and proclaim that in your opinion George Bush should be murdered and that you could see yourself doing it, see what happens to you.
Go try and kill yourself. Assuming you don't succeed, see what happens to you.
Go attempt to purchase cocaine and use it in the presence of a cop. See what happens to you.

 

[Ruptga]

Originally posted by: IAteYourMother

You mean free speech isn't a strong enough argument for you?

His point is that laws such as this have been in place for a long time and none of our governments (in the west) have gone big brother.