Holocaust Denier Sentenced to 5 Years

Brutuskend

Lifer
Apr 2, 2001
26,558
4
0
Holocaust Denier Sentenced to 5 Years
By THOMAS SEYTHAL, Associated Press Writer
Thu Feb 15, 3:16 PM


German right wing extremist Ernst Zuendel is seen at ...

MANNHEIM, Germany - A German court on Thursday convicted far-right activist Ernst Zundel and sentenced him to five years in prison for Holocaust denial in a case that underlined Germany's determination to prosecute people who claim the Nazis didn't murder six million Jews.

The 67-year-old Zundel, who was deported from Canada in 2005, was convicted on 14 counts of inciting hatred for years of anti-Semitic activities, including contributing to a Web site devoted to denying the Holocaust _ a crime in Germany.

Zundel showed no emotion when Judge Ulrich Meinerzhagen read the verdict, only nodding occasionally.

Zundel, who has also lived in Tennessee, and his supporters argued that he was a peaceful campaigner being denied his right to free speech.

His attorney, Ludwig Bock, said he would appeal.

"What is notable is the iron-hard refusal of the court to allow consideration of new scientific findings or expert opinions," Bock said.

Prosecutors in Germany were able to bring charges because the Web site is accessible there.

The German prosecution won praise from Bnai Brith Canada, a Jewish human rights group.

"The case of Ernst Zundel demonstrates clearly the strength, determination and resolve of Germany's hate crimes legislation, in stark contrast to our own," executive vice president Frank Dimant said in a statement. Dimant said Canadian hate crimes laws did not specifically recognize Holocaust denial as a crime.

Zundel faced 14 counts of incitement for disseminating anti-Semitic propaganda through a series of pamphlets and the Web site. Denying the Holocaust can bring three months to five years in prison.

His trial began in November in this southwestern city after an initial attempt to try him collapsed in March 2006 over a dispute with one of his attorneys, Sylvia Stolz.

At one stage, she was carried from the courtroom, screaming "Resistance! The German people are rising up," after she defied an order banning her from the trial on grounds she tried to sabotage the proceedings by denouncing the court as a "tool of foreign domination."

During the current trial, Bock quoted from Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf" and from Nazi race laws in his closing statements last week as argued for Zundel's acquittal.

Bock accused the Mannheim state court of not wanting to face a "scientific analysis" of the Holocaust and charged that prosecutors _ one of whom has termed Zundel a "rat catcher" _ had defamed his client.

Another of Zundel's five attorneys, Herbert Schaller, told the court that all of its evidence that the Holocaust took place was based only on witness reports, instead of hard facts.

In his own closing arguments, prosecutor Andreas Grossmann called Zundel a "political con man" from whom the German people must be protected, widely quoting from his writings, which argue that millions of Jews did not die at the hands of the Nazis.

"You might as well argue that the sun rises in the west," Grossmann said when asking that Zundel be given the maximum sentence. "But you cannot change that the Holocaust has been proven."

Born in Germany in 1939, Zundel emigrated to Canada in 1958 and lived in Toronto and Montreal until 2001. Canadian officials twice rejected his attempts to obtain Canadian citizenship, and he moved to Pigeon Forge, Tenn., until he was deported to Canada in 2003 for alleged immigration violations.

Mannheim prosecutors were able to open a case against Zundel because his Holocaust-denying Web site is available in Germany.

In February 2005, a Canadian judge ruled that Zundel's activities were not only a threat to national security, but "the international community of nations" as well.

A Canadian law, passed after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States, allows the government to hold terrorism suspects without charge, based on secret evidence that does not have to be disclosed to a suspect or his defense.

Zundel was deported a few days later.

Since the late 1970s, he had operated Samisdat Publishing, one of the leading distributors of Nazi propaganda and, since 1995, had been a key content provider for a Web site dedicated to Holocaust denial.

Zundel has claimed he is a peaceful man with no criminal record against him in Canada.

LINK
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
I'm glad we value free speech in our country.
 

Brutuskend

Lifer
Apr 2, 2001
26,558
4
0
Originally posted by: KLin
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: jpeyton
I'm glad we value free speech in our country.
Can you shout "fire" whenever you feel like it?

Of course you can.

You know of course that there IS a law against shouting fire when there IS no fire, right?
This law came about as I recall when people were killed in a stampede to get out of a , supposedly burning theater.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
81
Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy
Originally posted by: Howard
Can you shout "fire" whenever you feel like it?

How does owning an anti-semitic website equate to that at all?
Anti-Semitic rhetoric may incite bigotry and hatred.
 

SSP

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
17,727
0
0
Heh, I remember this guy from my HS law class.

edit - that is, one of the cases about free speech in Canada, not from my class itself lol.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy
Originally posted by: Howard
Can you shout "fire" whenever you feel like it?

How does owning an anti-semitic website equate to that at all?
Anti-Semitic rhetoric may incite bigotry and hatred.

If that were true, the Klan would have been outlawed a long time ago.
 

ForumMaster

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2005
7,792
1
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
I'm glad we value free speech in our country.

there's a difference between free speach and what he did. i suppose i'm biased but nonethelss Howard's example is a good one.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
81
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy
Originally posted by: Howard
Can you shout "fire" whenever you feel like it?

How does owning an anti-semitic website equate to that at all?
Anti-Semitic rhetoric may incite bigotry and hatred.

If that were true, the Klan would have been outlawed a long time ago.
So you are saying that the Klan still exists because they do NOT encourage bigotry?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy
Originally posted by: Howard
Can you shout "fire" whenever you feel like it?

How does owning an anti-semitic website equate to that at all?
Anti-Semitic rhetoric may incite bigotry and hatred.

You saying stupid things may incite bigotry and hatred against people named Howard. Can we throw you in the clink too?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
8,574
126
Originally posted by: jpeyton

If that were true, the Klan would have been outlawed a long time ago.

it was outlawed a long time ago.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,767
435
126
David Irving served only a fraction of his sentence in Austia, it's likely Zundel would himself be released after being held for less than his period of sentence.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
81
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: HamburgerBoy
Originally posted by: Howard
Can you shout "fire" whenever you feel like it?

How does owning an anti-semitic website equate to that at all?
Anti-Semitic rhetoric may incite bigotry and hatred.

You saying stupid things may incite bigotry and hatred against people named Howard. Can we throw you in the clink too?
How is what I said stupid?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: jpeyton

If that were true, the Klan would have been outlawed a long time ago.

it was outlawed a long time ago.

WTF are you talking about?

Text

A Klan chapter in my state did road cleanup on a section of interstate and had their name on a sign.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
While this guy and his ilk make me sick, this kind of stuff goes against all principles of free speech. Yay for freedom of speech, boo for extremists. If some nut wants to believe the holocaust did not happen, that's his right. The concept that any idea, if spoken, is sooooo dangerous to society it should be outlawed makes no sense to me. Yelling "fire" in a theater is not expressing an idea or opinion, so there's no direct comparison.

I'm glad here in the US you can still express whatever idea or opinion you want. Unless you threaten someone, you do not risk going to jail for expressing yourself.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: shoRunner
Originally posted by: jpeyton
I'm glad we value free speech in our country.

if by "our" country you mean germany...then...ok...

Last time I crossed the Cabin John bridge I definitely did not enter Germany. The guys profile says Maryland and he uses a US flag as his avatar so I think you can probably figure out he doesn't mean Germany.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
0
That's fvcked up. The guy's a POS and I wouldn't shed a tear if he was run over by a bus, but still, freedom of speech is too valuable to be compromised in this way.
 
Oct 4, 2004
10,515
6
81
When I showed my Dad the 9/11 Mysteries video on Google Video, the first thing he said was, "If this sort of thing had happened here (or several other countries), the guys who made this video would be dead or in jail on charges of treason or something. At least the US has got one thing right - Freedom of Speech."

This German dude might be a PoS but really, a 5-year-jail sentence? Unless there is evidence of him actively inciting hatred and bigotry (not just his thoughts and ideas on a website) I don't see a problem. People advocate crazy/idiotic notions on their blogs/forums/websites all the time.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: jpeyton

If that were true, the Klan would have been outlawed a long time ago.

it was outlawed a long time ago.

From Wikipedia:
The ACLU has provided legal support to various factions of the KKK in defense of their First Amendment rights to hold public rallies, parades, and marches, and their right to field political candidates.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: jpeyton

If that were true, the Klan would have been outlawed a long time ago.

it was outlawed a long time ago.

From Wikipedia:
The ACLU has provided legal support to various factions of the KKK in defense of their First Amendment rights to hold public rallies, parades, and marches, and their right to field political candidates.

The only thing outlawed with regards to the KKK is cross burning and even those laws have been challenged in the courts. The Supreme Court ruled on a Virginia law banning cross burning in Virginia v. Black in 2003 striking down the Virginia law. The court left open the possibility of being prosecuted for a cross burning if it is done with the intent to intimidate.
 

chambersc

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2005
6,247
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
I'm glad we value free speech in our country.


There is no such thing as ultimate freedoms. "Free Speech" yet you cannot say somethings at sometimes. "Free Press" yet we can jail reporters for not revealing sources. "Free Assembly" yet it cannot impede normal business. The Courts have limited our freedoms and we have accepted it. Make no mistake, I do not see this as bad at all.


Back to the point at hand. I just read this story in The New York Times. I love the justification on how they got the guy extradited to Germany to face prosecution (he has been living in Canada for decades. "German prosecutors were able to seek his extradition on the ground that a Web site he ran was accessible in Germany."

Ah, gotta love that and its implications to Interstate Commerce here in the States.
 

miniMUNCH

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2000
4,159
0
0
what I find laughable is that Bnai Brith Canada, a Jewish human rights group, lauded the decision to jail him for 5 years for some racist remarks and bigotry.