holocaust and god

[Howard]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
I am Jewish and I have the answer for you. the real one..... not the atheists' one or the arab, or the christain. Before the holocaust happened and the pre-years.........um lets say around till 1900. all jews were orthodox. the highest in ties to jewish beliefs like the torah and is strict with the laws of the torah. then came along these other jews and said we dont wana be this high in ties or w/e so they said why do in in Hebrew (jewish language, language that has been since adam and eve time) lets do it in our native language( at the time it was german). ok then they said lets be more the the christains so lets have services on Sunday instead of saturday b/c a jew couldn't work saturday or sunday b/c of their religious beliefs and then sund ay b/c no business b/c christains in church. so then it became less and less like real judiasm. g-d in his awesome power had to try and stop the ppl trying not to be jewish so he punished them. it ended up some of the really religous ones died, but thats what really happened

I don't know what to make of this.

 

[Crono]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
I am Jewish and I have the answer for you. the real one..... not the atheists' one or the arab, or the christain. Before the holocaust happened and the pre-years.........um lets say around till 1900. all jews were orthodox. the highest in ties to jewish beliefs like the torah and is strict with the laws of the torah. then came along these other jews and said we dont wana be this high in ties or w/e so they said why do in in Hebrew (jewish language, language that has been since adam and eve time) lets do it in our native language( at the time it was german). ok then they said lets be more the the christains so lets have services on Sunday instead of saturday b/c a jew couldn't work saturday or sunday b/c of their religious beliefs and then sund ay b/c no business b/c christains in church. so then it became less and less like real judiasm. g-d in his awesome power had to try and stop the ppl trying not to be jewish so he punished them. it ended up some of the really religous ones died, but thats what really happened

I don't know what to make of this.

Sorry, but I don't know where you are getting the idea that Hebrew has been around since Adam and Eve's time? Doesn't the Torah say that after Babel, many different languages were developed (God caused them to speak in different languages) ? AFAIK, the Tanakh doesn't say anywhere that Hebrew has been around that long, either, nor does it say it was the original.

EDIT: That's not the only thing that bothers me about your post, but that's the one that confuses me the most.

EDIT 2: I take that back. I am equally, if not even more, confused about how you could think that before 1900 "all jews were orthodox". The last time that even close to all the Jews were orthodox was before the dispersion, or perhaps when Nehemiah was governor (ad even then not "all" the Jews were complacent to the Law).

I know I'm probably looking at in a "Christian perspective" in your eyes, but even if you just examine the Old Testament, compared with history, you would have to agree on those two points. On a side note, I have a question unrelated to the topic at hand: who would you consider the last major prophet of the Jewish faith to be? Malachi, or someone else?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
I am Jewish and I have the answer for you. the real one..... not the atheists' one or the arab, or the christain. Before the holocaust happened and the pre-years.........um lets say around till 1900. all jews were orthodox. the highest in ties to jewish beliefs like the torah and is strict with the laws of the torah. then came along these other jews and said we dont wana be this high in ties or w/e so they said why do in in Hebrew (jewish language, language that has been since adam and eve time) lets do it in our native language( at the time it was german). ok then they said lets be more the the christains so lets have services on Sunday instead of saturday b/c a jew couldn't work saturday or sunday b/c of their religious beliefs and then sund ay b/c no business b/c christains in church. so then it became less and less like real judiasm. g-d in his awesome power had to try and stop the ppl trying not to be jewish so he punished them. it ended up some of the really religous ones died, but thats what really happened

I don't know what to make of this.

Sorry, but I don't know where you are getting the idea that Hebrew has been around since Adam and Eve's time? Doesn't the Torah say that after Babel, many different languages were developed (God caused them to speak in different languages) ? AFAIK, the Tanakh doesn't say anywhere that Hebrew has been around that long, either, nor does it say it was the original. adam and eve were before the story of the tower of babel, that was after the great flood, which was 10 gen after adam and eve, babel was 10 gens after flood. and it says in the torah that all ppl spoke hebrew and the the tower of babel happened which then their languages

EDIT: That's not the only thing that bothers me about your post, but that's the one that confuses me the most.

EDIT 2: I take that back. I am equally, if not even more, confused about how you could think that before 1900 "all jews were orthodox". The last time that even close to all the Jews were orthodox was before the dispersion, or perhaps when Nehemiah was governor (ad even then not "all" the Jews were complacent to the Law). before 1900 jews were forced to convert (aka the Inquisition) and many times before like in Babylonia. The ppl that were jewish were considered orthodox because they all were following the Torah similar to orthodox jews of today. they were forced to not be jewish.

I know I'm probably looking at in a "Christian perspective" in your eyes, but even if you just examine the Old Testament There is no new testament there have always been the tanach which we can prove many ways, like real facts and different things we have today like the actual Torah it has stayed the same since moses wrote it which I believe is 5767 years ago(Hebrew years)........we can prove otherwise that the new testament isn't real because nothing can prove that, compared with history, you would have to agree on those two points. On a side note, I have a question unrelated to the topic at hand: who would you consider the last major prophet of the Jewish faith to be? Malachi, or someone else?I would have to say the judges or the kings

 

[Mr Pickles]

I think ATOT is the only forum capable of turning a Religion101 question "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" into a 7 page long babble of slop.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Crono

Originally posted by: db

Originally posted by: Crono
Some people are chosen for salvation (a "remnant"), while the rest are chosen for unrighteousness and destruction.

If people have free choice, why are some "chosen for unrighteousness and destruction".?

It's hard to explain fully (I am not God, obviously), but while God does predestine people, there is, to us, the ability to choose whether to accept salvation and other choices we make in our life. From our human perspective, it looks like I chose to be saved, but it is actually and ultimately God who chose me and lead me to that point; there was nothing I did to be saved. I don't like to say free will is an "illusion", because I don't think that it is the case, but rather that our perspective is limited. It's like when a parent gets a child to do something in a way that he/she thinks is his/her own decision, but it was really the parent who made the decision. I'm not speaking about sinful decisions, but rather salvation. I think God knows perfectly what everyone is going to do, and has created everyone and knowing everything that would happen, setting His plan in motion, but I also know that people do choose of their own will to sin against Him. God did not cause Pharaoh to sin against Him, but rather God hardened his heart (God knows how people will react to different situations and things) so that God could show through signs and His Word that He indeed was and is God, and that He would deliver His people.

I'm not sure if that came out clear, because it is a concept that is hard to comprehend no matter what level of biblical understanding you have (much like the concept of infinity).

I didn't know that you were a Calvinist.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: EXman

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

You seem to have elevated logic to a God like plane. Logic is an artificial construct created by humans. What part of God is not human don't you understand?
How does allowing evil to occur make God responsible let alone evil?

God is the source of all evil...and all good. How can we allow that God created the entire universe and yet somehow divorce him from responsibility when it comes to the evil part of his creation?

Freewill goober

God didn't give us free will?