Hizballah threatens Israel

[SamurAchzar]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3803838,00.html

A day after the chief of staff warned against an increasing threat from the north, Hezbollah bragged, "All cities, military bases, factories, and settlements in Israel are within the organization's firing range."


Hezbollah's political bureau chief Mahmoud Qomati was responding to the statements made by IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi in the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Tuesday. Ashkenazi said that Hezbollah is armed with tens of thousands of missiles that can even reach Dimona. "Some of them reach a range of 300 km (about 185 miles)," he said.


According to the chief of staff, the missiles are ready for use. "There is a paradox. On the one hand, there is quiet, but when you raise your head over the fence, you see strengthening and arming. If Hezbollah carries out an attack to avenge the death of Mughniyeh, this will obligate Israel to respond. This can lead to deterioration."


Qomati said Wednesday that if Israel attacks the Hezbollah stronghold in Beirut's Dahiya neighborhood, the organization will respond with an all-out shelling of Tel Aviv. Qomati dismissed Ashkenazi's statements: "Ashkenazi's threats are empty statements made in a bid to restore the initiative to his hands after the enemy's defeat in Lebanon and Gaza."


Qomati continued, "The enemy knows that any offensive initiated under the current conditions will ensure his total defeat, will change the balance of power in our favor, and will bring about the end of its entity.

The facts are on the table. Israel has one of the world's largest, best trained and funded terrorist organizations sitting on its northern border, with the country hosting it turning a blind eye to its armament.

Obviously these weapons WILL be used at one point or another, otherwise there's no explanation to why Hizballah is amassing them - Israel has no quarrels with Lebanon itself whatsoever. Where is the UN? Where is the world? Where the fuck are the residents of Lebanon? Are they supportive of another war with Israel?

So you have Hizballah publicly declaring it has rockets for 300km, in violation of UN resolution calling for its disarmament, and the world sits idly. I'd like to see the world reaction when Beirut is reduced to rubble during the next clash.

 

[Jaskalas]

I’m sure, as last time, the world will move in to defend Hizballah.

 

[Lemon law]

Lets see if I can quite get my arms around the latest Samur Achzar paranoia. Israel already has the demonstrated capacity to bomb all of Lebanon as it demonstrated in 2005. Granted there was some Israeli pre justification because Hezbollah was firing some missiles into Israel.

Since then Hezbollah has not fired missiles into Israel even if Anti Israeli terrorists have in a continuation of policies since the birth of Israel in 1948.

Or maybe what puts ants in Sammy pants and bees in his bonnet is the fact that Israel can no longer invade Lebanon anytime it diddly darns wants to, because the last time Israel tried to invade Lebanon with tanks, they faced real opposition, and spent 2 weeks going 20 miles while losing State of the arts tanks.

Gee what a damn shame, Israel can't whip on the powerless like it wants to, it can't just be a big bully and take candy from babies which it prefers.

Sammy, its called a balance of power, we in the USA have been facing down the Russians for all my life, and both nations have had to face the reality of Mutual Assured Destruction. Its kept both the US and The Russia rational, and now you bleat when Israel has to join the rest of the world and be rational for a damn change.

In short Sammy, Hezbollah having some armaments and a balance of power is a good and not a bad thing. And if it causes Israel to reform its ways, and be a real peace partner for the first time, it might just get that elusive mid east peace.

The other problem is that pro Israeli fan clubbers just can't see where this is going, meanwhile Israel continues to expand West Bank settlements, dooming any land for peace deal, and pissing off the entire Arab world and the bulk of the international community. Meaning that wealthy Arabs and others will keep funding and arming terrorists while Israel will keep driving up hatreds on both sides. And sadly many of the anti Israeli terrorists will not be State based or rational like Hezbollah, and in their minds, any tactic against Israel will be justified.

In the minds of pro Israeli fan clubbers, anyone who does not totally support Israel is an enemy, but I can also see the value of an Israel in the mid-east. And I will be sadly disappointed if Israelis get driven into the Sea, but failing a just peace, and the weight of Arab numbers, that is exactly where this is heading in the longer run.

 

[SamurAchzar]

So Hizballah can once again invade the Israeli territory, attack Israeli troops and civilians and nothing would happen, because of the balance of power? First time I hear of a "balance of power" with a non-state entity! I'll give you that.

How about the USA maintains a "balance of power" with Al Qaeda too?

No, I have different ideas - at the next Hizballah provocation, Israel should go in and wipe every reminiscent of Hizballah, then retake the south of Lebanon like it did 25 years ago. Only this time, Israel should also expel all Lebanese from there and leave barren land. With no inhabitants, Hizballah would have no civilian population to hide among. Leave it for a peace agreement with Lebanon for the territory to be returned.

Don't you think this would be more effective in maintaining peace and safety than counting on Nassarallah?

 

[ZzZGuy]

Israel's "Iron Dome" is due to come online sometime next year. It is missile/mortar interception system which fires one to two rockets at a incoming rocket/mortar and destroys it in midair. Tests so far have been successful.

It's main weakness is the inability to intercept mass rocket fire, and if it could it would be hideously expensive. However, the longer range rockets are fewer in number which works to the systems advantage. Hizaballah have not released a list of their rocket stockpiles, but I doubt they have the larger long range rockets in large quantities due to their size and expense.

Israel and the USA are currently working on a missile defense system for their tanks similar to what Russia currently has which would render anti tank missiles largely ineffective. I do not know when they expect to have or install this sort of system.

Now lets for a moment assume Israel will have no defense for their cities and tanks, and hizballah launches rockets in the numbers they claim to have. Israel will have no choice but to retaliate and if they can't do it selectively all the civilian casualties that you have seen in the last few decades will be nothing comapired to what will happen when Israel is forced to make more use of artillery and air power. So don't get all happy that Israel can't respond without getting a bloodly nose because it will be the civilians that will suffer the most in the end on both sides.

 

[Lemon law]

So Hizballah can once again invade the Israeli territory, attack Israeli troops and civilians and nothing would happen, because of the balance of power? First time I hear of a "balance of power" with a non-state entity! I'll give you that.

How about the USA maintains a "balance of power" with Al Qaeda too?

No, I have different ideas - at the next Hizballah provocation, Israel should go in and wipe every reminiscent of Hizballah, then retake the south of Lebanon like it did 25 years ago. Only this time, Israel should also expel all Lebanese from there and leave barren land. With no inhabitants, Hizballah would have no civilian population to hide among. Leave it for a peace agreement with Lebanon for the territory to be returned.

Don't you think this would be more effective in maintaining peace and safety than counting on Nassarallah?

In terms of that last Statement Sammy, in a word NO. In terms of your first statement, maybe Israel is going to have to wait for Hezbollah to resume the attack.

And even the link you cited was an Isolated Hezbollah response to Israeli saber rattling whose whole thrust was that Israeli aggression against Lebanon would be met with a Hezbollah response.

ZzZGuy basically has it right, its the innocent civilians on both sides who will pay the price while aggressors by in large escape.

In terms of your overall suggestion that Israel should wipe out all civilians in Lebanon, it just goes to shows how mentally ill you are, and your inability to see anything but the pro-Israeli side.

 

[Skitzer]

I'll just say this ....... Israel has a right to defend itself. They are not the aggressor when it comes to Hezbollah, they have reacted to attacks and threats just as any other Country would do. Also Hezbollah is an organization not a recognized Country. Lebanon needs to get a grip on these extremists and kick them the fuck out of their Country.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Qomati said Wednesday that if Israel attacks the Hezbollah stronghold in Beirut's Dahiya neighborhood, the organization will respond with an all-out shelling of Tel Aviv. Qomati dismissed Ashkenazi's statements: "Ashkenazi's threats are empty statements made in a bid to restore the initiative to his hands after the enemy's defeat in Lebanon and Gaza."


Qomati continued, "The enemy knows that any offensive initiated under the current conditions will ensure his total defeat, will change the balance of power in our favor, and will bring about the end of its entity.

Sounds like one of our Palestinian supporters

In Lebanon - it was Hezbollah that screamed for the UN to put the reins on Israel after they were driven out of the South.
In Gaza is was Hamas that screamed for the UN to put the reins on Israel after Hamas was getting squeezed.

What is will the world say now that Hezbollah has admitted that they have violated the UN ceasefire rules about weapons.

NOTHING

 

[EagleKeeper]

I'll just say this ....... Israel has a right to defend itself. They are not the aggressor when it comes to Hezbollah, they have reacted to attacks and threats just as any other Country would do. Also Hezbollah is an organization not a recognized Country. Lebanon needs to get a grip on these extremists and kick them the fuck out of their Country.

Hezbollah is now a legitimate part of the Lebanese government and Syria is a puppet master.

 

[magomago]

Yeah cause its not like Isreal is violating Lebanese Territory at all. Totally defensive!

Let me just pull out the interesting comments from MondoWeiss
http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/israelis-said-to-violate-another-u-n-resolution.html

Witty (magomago: resident Zionist that white washes over anything and all Israel does), there are literally dozens of UN resolutions that Israel has violated. You will run out of violations to cite from each and every one of Israel’s neighbors before we run out of violations to bring up that Israel is responsible for.

Indeed. How many times has Hezbollah flown jets over Israel, exactly? Remind me again how many Israeli children have been maimed or killed by cluster bombs we sold to Lebanon instead of Israel.

Israel has been doing these overflights forever.
What is more serious is the current escalation towards another Israeli attack on Lebanon. The Israelis are going apeshit over the fact that Lebanon may be able to defend itself, that they have rockets capable of reaching Tel Aviv. This, in the paranoid Israeli mind, is a form of aggression.
Another war on a weaker nation will also temporarily assuage Israeli bloodlust for an attack on Iran, which has been thwarted. The IDF will take out its frustration on Lebanon, instead. This will be spun as “strengthening deterrence” and “sending a lesson to Iran.”
All they need is another provocation, which they will certainly manufacture when the time is right and they have completed discrediting the Goldstone Report.
And the US Congress will applaud the killing and declare again that “Israel has the right to defend itself” and send more weapons to help them do it.

Nothing new. It’s been going on for more than 40 years now. UN resolutions mean nothing to Israel.
Ever heard the Hebrew expression, “Umm Shmoom”? It means, “UN Shmuen”.
How does Israel send the UN a message? It bombs a clearly marked UN base – a base whose GPS coordinates are shared with the Israeli air force so as to avoid any mix ups – and then claims it was a mistake, “sorry”. Then it bombs a UN compound where hundreds of Lebanese refugees sought shelter. Qana was bombed twice, once in 1996 and once in 2006. Both times Israel claimed it was a mistake, both times hundreds of civilians were killed.
The Israeli Navy rams Lebanese boats and ships which are operating within Lebanese waters. There were several incidents this year alone.
Truce and ceasefire mean absolutely nothing, neither does the concept of national sovereignty. Had Syria bombed Israel’s Dimona facility, it would have set off WWIII, but when the opposite happens, it’s perfectly fine.

Israel does a great job pretending its the defensive victim. Come on, lets wake up people!

 

[LTC8K6]

Hizballah also strongly attacked Obama as being in Israel's pocket and as not caring about arabs and Muslims. Go figure...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hnUg-djUKEdei3_BKW5h71NAb_iAD9BTHHBG0

 

[magomago]

Btw if you want to spin it the other way:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10608113

Hizbollah is rapidly rearming in preparation for a new conflict with Israel, fearing that Benjamin Netanyahu's Government will attack Lebanon again before any assault on Iran's nuclear facilities.

...

Although the organisation denied last week that the weapons were intended for its use, senior commanders have done little to disguise the scale of rearmament. "Sure, we are rearming, we have even said that we have far more rockets and missiles than we did in 2006," said a Hizbollah commander.
"We had to blow up or leave some of our bunkers and fighting positions, but we still have plenty of capabilities in the south.

We expect the Israelis to come soon, if not this [northern] winter, then they will wait until spring, when the ground isn't too soft for their tanks."

who knows if their estimates are accurate or not. But considering Israel's history of casting itself as the defender, while quietly creating violent incidents to provoke a response and execute a pre determined plan on the basis of 'defense', I wouldn't be surprised to see if they try that again.
I can only hopes the ranks of those who did not vote to condemn the the Goldstone Report will continue to increase.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Israel has been doing overflights into Lebanon every since that country started harboring terrorists that attack Israel.

If Lebanon were to control its borders, then Israel would not have to monitor what was going on.

How many overflights does Israel make over the Jordan river and on its borders with Egypt.

Few if any - because those countries actually attempt control their borders and want peace with Israel.

 

[Red Dawn]

A plague on both their houses. The world would be so much better if neither group existed but alas they do and it seems they are hell bent on exterminating each other.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Btw if you want to spin it the other way:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10608113


who knows if their estimates are accurate or not. But considering Israel's history of casting itself as the defender, while quietly creating violent incidents to provoke a response and execute a pre determined plan on the basis of 'defense', I wouldn't be surprised to see if they try that again.
I can only hopes the ranks of those who did not vote to condemn the the Goldstone Report will continue to increase.

I believe that it was Hezbollah that triggered the Lebanon invasion by crossing the border and kidnapping a member(s) of the IDF.

Hezbollah later admitted that they miscalculated the Israeli response.

Hamas then followed the Hezbollah example, hoping for better results - they also failed.

For both incidents, it sounds like Israel was really the instigator - how, by having soldiers on their side of the border?

 

[magomago]

Israel has been doing overflights into Lebanon every since that country started harboring terrorists that attack Israel.

If Lebanon were to control its borders, then ISrael woiuld not have to monitor what was going on.

How many overflights does Israel make over the Jordan river and on its borders with Egypt.

Few if any - because those couintries actually attempt control their borders and want peace with Israel.

So Israel can violate UN resolutions and its okay, but Hizbollah can't?

Okay, gotcha. Nice double standard you set up.

I should argue that Israel needs to be monitored as well, because it can't seem to control its borders as they seem to continuously expand outward.

If you read the NZH article, you would learn that Hizbollah is fortifying further up north because they can't operate on the border anymore.

"It's clear Hizbollah no longer controls the border, due to the presence of Unifil [United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon] troops," said Andrew Exum, a Hizbollah expert at the Centre for New American Security. "They appear to be hardening the villages for this next round of fighting, while pushing their fixed positions north away from Unifil to protect the approaches to Beirut and the Bekaa Valley."

Makes Hizbollah look MUCH more offensive, especially when they are fortifying position. I heard they perfected technology found in StarCraft2 - their barracks and command centers can lift off and dop down wherever they need. Now all they need are a few South Korean Teens to control a few dummy drones as they kite the Israelis and out-micromanage them. *end sarcasm*

 

[magomago]

I believe that it was Hezbollah that triggered the Lebanon invasion by crossing the border and kidnapping a member(s) of the IDF.

Hezbollah later admitted that they miscalculated the Israeli response.

Hamas then followed the Hezbollah example, hoping for better results - they also failed.

For both incidents, it sounds like Israel was really the instigator - how, by having soldiers on their side of the border?

Yup. Okay. I haven't hit the chronological details on the 2006 War on Lebanon, but knowing Israel's past I wouldn't be surprised if there was something else provoking it. I would normally give you the benefit of the doubt, but you've made up and parrotted false history before so I'll have to hold my final judgment till I can look into it myself.

Just remember though - Hizbollah is fortifying in Lebanon. If you are interested in attacking and providing an 'existential threat' to Israel, it seems the tactics are completely backwards....

 

[EagleKeeper]

So Israel can violate UN resolutions and its okay, but Hizbollah can't?

Okay, gotcha. Nice double standard you set up.

I should argue that Israel needs to be monitored as well, because it can't seem to control its borders as they seem to continuously expand outward.

If you read the NZH article, you would learn that Hizbollah is fortifying further up north because they can't operate on the border anymore.




Makes Hizbollah look MUCH more offensive, especially when they are fortifying position. I heard they perfected technology found in StarCraft2 - their barracks and command centers can lift off and dop down wherever they need. Now all they need are a few South Korean Teens to control a few dummy drones as they kite the Israelis and out-micromanage them. *end sarcasm*

Israel has expanded their borders whenever they have been attacked from the outside.

With the UN buffer on the border; it will be easy to see who triggers an all out attack.

Will Israel go after a terrortist in Lebanon and that is used as an justification to send missles into Israel (aka Gaza)

Or will Israel roll across the UN buffer and go after the hardpoints?

I would bet on the first and people will scream that Israel should not have eliminated a terrorist leader - justifying the Hezbollah response.

Hezbollah will not just fire off a rocket; they will need an excuse.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Yup. Okay. I haven't hit the chronological details on the 2006 War on Lebanon, but knowing Israel's past I wouldn't be surprised if there was something else provoking it. I would normally give you the benefit of the doubt, but you've made up and parrotted false history before so I'll have to hold my final judgment till I can look into it myself.

Wiki Link

The conflict began when Hezbollah militants fired rockets at Israeli border towns as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence.[21] Of the seven Israeli soldiers in the two jeeps, two were wounded, five were killed, and the bodies of two of the dead were taken to Lebanon.[21] Five more were killed in a failed Israeli rescue attempt.

Good enough?

 

[JSt0rm]

No, I have different ideas - at the next Hizballah provocation, Israel should go in and wipe every reminiscent of Hizballah, then retake the south of Lebanon like it did 25 years ago. Only this time, Israel should also expel all Lebanese from there and leave barren land. With no inhabitants, Hizballah would have no civilian population to hide among. Leave it for a peace agreement with Lebanon for the territory to be returned.

Don't you think this would be more effective in maintaining peace and safety than counting on Nassarallah?

Don't forget they should salt the earth and dump radioactive waist all over it. Only then will Israel be FREE of this oppression.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Don't forget they should salt the earth and dump radioactive waist all over it. Only then will Israel be FREE of this oppression.

Really, why not? If Lebanon can't control Hizballah, let Israel do it. The most logical response to Hizballah acquiring longer range rockets is, well, reduce their effective reach by driving them further and further away from Israel.

It's not like we're discussing something that has already happened - it is quite clear how this is going to act out. Lets all remember this thread when Hizballah attacks Israel again and Israel burns Lebanon in response. And if Israel's response isn't measured to your liking, why fuck with it in the first place, eh?

 

[Lemon law]

A plague on both their houses. The world would be so much better if neither group existed but alas they do and it seems they are hell bent on exterminating each other.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I somewhat disagree on a number of points.

1. Its all well and fine to wish a plague on both houses, but the point being, its beyond stupid to pretend either group will cease to exist, and maybe even more absurd to pretend to the Israeli or Hezbollah goal is to exterminate each other.

2. The current reality is that Hezbollah is the first near Israeli near neighbor to achieve limited self defense capabilities against Israeli aggression. And by limited, I mean on the ground, total Israeli hegemony still exists from the air. But the point being, a decade ago, one Israeli tank could go from the Southern Border of Lebanon to to its Northern border without meeting any significant opposition. Not only is that no longer true, what is true is that Hezbollah still has zero defense against the Israeli air force.
While the Israeli air force can't be effective in breaking Hezbollah ground based self defense capability.

3. Its now time to revive the ghost of the still not debunked Seymour Hersch contention, namely that the 2005 Israeli incursion into Lebanon was a Dick Cheney based brainfart based on three things. (1) An incident was needed to justify it, the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier would do, but there were no shortage of such incidents on all sides so why should that one incident justify it all? The other point being, Israeli armor was pre put in place a waiting any incident and ready to go at an instants notice. (2) Dick Cheney regarded it as a dress rehearsal for a US invasion of Iran, the terrain was similar and if Israeli tanks could sweep all opposition aside, surely more US tanks could do the same in Iran. (3) Given the then minority popularity of Hezbollah in Lebanon, at that time 25%, Israel would be seen as liberators by the Lebanese people. With the same effect hoped for by Cheney in Iran. ( As we now know it was an epic fail for Cheney on all fronts, Israeli armor became quickly got bogged down as Israel got the shit shocked out of them when they started losing state of the arts tanks. Cheney found the liberator assumption an epic fail as Lebanese popular support of Hezbollah soared to 75%, and even higher than that in the Arab world because they became the shining example. And therefore Iranians would rally around their government also. As a result, Cheney lost face and the US never tried to invade Iran.

4. But as pointed out, Hezbollah learned its lesson too as Israel raped all of Lebanon from the air. And as a result over Hezbollah underestimating the Israeli response, they no longer attack Israel as a maybe desirable balance of power is established. It still does not stop both sides from continuing to build up offensive and defensive capacity, but it does result in desired non aggression.

5. In short, to call this entire thread thesis FOS, Hezbollah is now the least of Israeli worries. And instead, its going to be the rest of the Arab world aping the Hezbollah example that should be the Israeli worry. As we see in the recent Israeli incursion into Gaza, the arms capacity build up has not yet extended into Gaza. But in the fullness of time it likely will. We already know the Gaza borders leak like a sieve, the same will be likely true West Bank, and doubly so if Farah gets the ole heave ho for making no progress as a reward for being Uncle Tom's.

6. In short things do not happen fast in the Mid-east, but the 2005 Israeli incursion into is still a mile stone. What worked for Israel for the first 57 years may be an epic fail in future.

 

[EagleKeeper]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I somewhat disagree on a number of points.
...

6. In short things do not happen fast in the Mid-east, but the 2005 Israeli incursion into is still a mile stone. What worked for Israel for the first 57 years may be an epic fail in future.

While Hezbollah has learned a lesson, Israel has also.

The gloves will come off - this was demonstrated in Gaza.
Force will be used until the enemy is routed

 

[JSt0rm]

Really, why not? If Lebanon can't control Hizballah, let Israel do it. The most logical response to Hizballah acquiring longer range rockets is, well, reduce their effective reach by driving them further and further away from Israel.

It's not like we're discussing something that has already happened - it is quite clear how this is going to act out. Lets all remember this thread when Hizballah attacks Israel again and Israel burns Lebanon in response. And if Israel's response isn't measured to your liking, why fuck with it in the first place, eh?

I agreed with you. While I dont give 2 squirts of piss about isreal I just wish somebody would "win" already. I'm tired of seeing all the turmoil over there. I also can't wait till we are off the oil so we don't have to "fund" isreal anymore.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I agreed with you. While I dont give 2 squirts of piss about isreal I just wish somebody would "win" already. I'm tired of seeing all the turmoil over there. I also can't wait till we are off the oil so we don't have to "fund" isreal anymore.

What does the American support of Israel have with oil? I'm sure the US could hand Israel over to the Arabs for a good chunk of cheap oil if that was their wish. I don't get it, please explain.