History thread: The Brits had 2 strange breaks durring the WW2

[adlep]

The Brits must had a very powerful ally in Hitler's inner circle...


Break #1:
The Battle of Dunkirk

All of the sudden Hitler just "stopped" the offensive and "allowed" for a close to 400,000 troops to evacuate...
?


Break #2: After he "lost" the Battle of Britain, why quit the invasion plans? I mean - what the Spitfires are going to do? They will sink Battleship Bismark with their machine guns? At that time British Army, ground Attack planes, and tanks simply sucked.

 

[Canun]

Britian's navy was spectacular in comparison to the German navy. Air supremacy was required so that Germany could use their air force to eliminate the naval threat. (Or at least keep them bottled off)

Supposedly, one of the reasons for the pause was to refit the German armies to continue the advance. Tanks had broken down, logistics were a mess, and fuel was having trouble getting through.

 

[Gibsons]

1. Dunkirk was a colossal blunder. Maybe not Hitler's worst, but still.

2. They had no hope of invading the UK. Well, not successfully, within any reasonable time frame.

It wasn't so much the RAF that scared them, it was the RN's enormous superiority over the KM. And a complete lack of suitable marine landing capability. They were hoping the luftwaffe could neutralize the RN, after taking out the RAF.

 

[VoteQuimby]

lol, at #2

#1 Hitler didn't want to invade Britain. He'd prefer them to become an ally or accept his presence in Europe. Why waste resources on invading Britain when he could force a truce with them and move on east. It is thought that Hitler allowed the troops at Dunkirk to leave because it would help his case in forcing a truce with them later on.

#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 destroyers in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Canun
Britian's navy was spectacular in comparison to the German navy. Air supremacy was required so that Germany could use their air force to eliminate the naval threat. (Or at least keep them bottled off)

Supposedly, one of the reasons for the pause was to refit the German armies to continue the advance. Tanks had broken down, logistics were a mess, and fuel was having trouble getting through.

The terrain presented problems for German armor so they were going to let the Luftwaffe handle it for a while.

 

[coolVariable]

Wrong. Hitler actually admired the brits and always thought they would join him (they were pretty much as anti-jew as the nazis anyhow).

 

[Canun]

The most impressive break was during the battle of Britian. Germany was bombing the air fields and shooting down quite a few fighters in the process. (with high losses of their own) It was predicted that Britian was about two weeks away from having to pull out of the war. Then a German bomber screwed up and bombed London (I think?). The Brits bombed a German city in retaliation. Hitler switched the priority of targets from the airfields to the cities, which allowed the RAF to rebuild with better planes and personel.

 

[Scouzer]

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby
lol, at #2

#1 Hitler didn't want to invade Britain. He'd prefer them to become an ally or accept his presence in Europe. Why waste resources on invading Britain when he could force a truce with them and move on east. It is thought that Hitler allowed the troops at Dunkirk to leave because it would help his case in forcing a truce with them later on.

#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 destroyers in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

Bismarck was a pretty damn big destroyer.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: Scouzer

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby
lol, at #2

#1 Hitler didn't want to invade Britain. He'd prefer them to become an ally or accept his presence in Europe. Why waste resources on invading Britain when he could force a truce with them and move on east. It is thought that Hitler allowed the troops at Dunkirk to leave because it would help his case in forcing a truce with them later on.

#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 destroyers in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

Bismarck was a pretty damn big destroyer.

You can get around treaties that way. 😉

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby


#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 destroyers in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

Bismarck was a battleship, not a destroyer and Germany had many of them. In addition to the Bismarck and her sister ship the Tirpitz they had a whole slew of smaller pocket battleships and battlecruisers. That however is completely irrelevant to this topic as battleships have little impact on invasions. They're designed to fight other surface vessels and would have been bombed to smithereens if they tried to support an invasion of England. The Royal Navy would have had very little to so with it, for the invasion to succeed the Royal Air Force had to be neutralized. That was what the Battle of Britain was all about, Germany attempted to wipe out the RAF to pave the way for an invasion because whoever controlled the skies would win. Germany lost the Battle of Britain, so the invasion plans could not go forward.

 

[JTsyo]

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby
lol, at #2

#1 Hitler didn't want to invade Britain. He'd prefer them to become an ally or accept his presence in Europe. Why waste resources on invading Britain when he could force a truce with them and move on east. It is thought that Hitler allowed the troops at Dunkirk to leave because it would help his case in forcing a truce with them later on.

#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 Battleship in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

fix'd

I always wondered if the US could have pulled off D-Day without Britain as a base. Though I guess they would have landed in Britain first if that was the case.

 

[KMFJD]

Originally posted by: adlep
The Brits must had a very powerful ally in Hitler's inner circle...


Break #1:
The Battle of Dunkirk

All of the sudden Hitler just "stopped" the offensive and "allowed" for a close to 400,000 troops to evacuate...
?


Break #2: After he "lost" the Battle of Britain, why quit the invasion plans? I mean - what the Spitfires are going to do? They will sink Battleship Bismark with their machine guns? At that time British Army, ground Attack planes, and tanks simply sucked.

About #2 , ze Germans had no way to get across the chanel with an intact British Navy in the way.

Radar helped the British co-ordinate defence during the bqattle of Britain, this was decisive advantage for them.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Scouzer

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby
lol, at #2

#1 Hitler didn't want to invade Britain. He'd prefer them to become an ally or accept his presence in Europe. Why waste resources on invading Britain when he could force a truce with them and move on east. It is thought that Hitler allowed the troops at Dunkirk to leave because it would help his case in forcing a truce with them later on.

#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 destroyers in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

Bismarck was a pretty damn big destroyer.

lol...and her sister the Tirpitz

The Germans also had the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst.

The British were rightfully terrified that anything of that caliber should be roaming the sea lanes free to do as it pleased which is why they threw everything including the kitchen sink at her during the breakout.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: adlep
The Brits must had a very powerful ally in Hitler's inner circle...


Break #1:
The Battle of Dunkirk

All of the sudden Hitler just "stopped" the offensive and "allowed" for a close to 400,000 troops to evacuate...
?


Break #2: After he "lost" the Battle of Britain, why quit the invasion plans? I mean - what the Spitfires are going to do? They will sink Battleship Bismark with their machine guns? At that time British Army, ground Attack planes, and tanks simply sucked.

Break 1:
Actually the German army was overextended and was asking for a period of replenishment before attacking the Dunkirk perimeter. This gave Goering the opening to put forth the Luftwaffe to take over.
And even if the Brits had only gotten a third of their men off that still would have been enough since the Germans really had no hope of invading England.

Break 2:
There was never any real chance that the Germans would invade. As long as the RAF had enough planes to at least contest a crossing of the channel the inadequate German invasion barges would have been easy prey for the Royal Navy. The Germans had planned on using barges towed by tugs and fishing vessels that could only make 4-5 knots. Add to this the 60,000 HORSES the Germans planned on bringing over and you can see how jury rigged barges with bolted on wooden ramps traveling at 4-5 knots could never hope to land any kind of fighting force.
And the Bismark in the Channel? The Royal Navy would have blown it to bits.

The only real chance, and it was a longshot, that might have worked was put forth by Milch who advocated an immediate paratroop, glider attack on some of the nearest British airfields where they would capture the fields, then fly in the Ju-52's with troops and supplies. With the British having virtually no tanks or heavy guns after Dunkirk, they might have stood a chance to hold out long enough to secure a landing site for German E-boats and other high speed motorboats to bring over enough men and supplies to entrench the Germans on British soil.
The very time it took for the Germans to consolidate its captured airfields, rest and replenish after the fall France put any hope of invasion for the Germans beyond reach.

 

[VoteQuimby]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby


#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 destroyers in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

Bismarck was a battleship, not a destroyer and Germany had many of them. In addition to the Bismarck and her sister ship the Tirpitz they had a whole slew of smaller pocket battleships and battlecruisers. That however is completely irrelevant to this topic as battleships have little impact on invasions. They're designed to fight other surface vessels and would have been bombed to smithereens if they tried to support an invasion of England. The Royal Navy would have had very little to so with it, for the invasion to succeed the Royal Air Force had to be neutralized. That was what the Battle of Britain was all about, Germany attempted to wipe out the RAF to pave the way for an invasion because whoever controlled the skies would win. Germany lost the Battle of Britain, so the invasion plans could not go forward.

My bad on the ship class.

My point is that the German Navy was not large enough to support the troop transports across the channel to Britain. You cannot have an invasion (in this case) without a secure beachhead. Sure they probably could have landed their troops, however once the entire Royal Navy shows up and blasts the crap out of your beachhead and thus cuts off your resupply routes you're screwed. They could have continued to supply via air drop, however they did not have much success with this later on in the war and they did not achieve air superiority. Having had air superiority, the planned invasion would still have been a major headache due to the superior size of the Royal navy's fleet.

 

[sandorski]

Added on to all the Logistical issues of Invading Britain, you have to also consider the always present threat from the Soviet Union. It had the Potential of destroying Germany while Britain(by itself) did not. The Soviets also had far fewer Logistical issues concerning Invasion of Germany than Britain had. In fact, many of the problems Hitler had in Invading Britain also existed for the British Invading Europe/Germany. So Germany could focus its' forces on the Primary Threat of the Soviet Union, at least for awhile. If the Soviets had failed to halt Hitlers invasion, the Soviet threat would have been eliminated rather quickly and Hitler would than better address the growing threat from Britain(British, Commonwealth Forces, and US buildup).

 

[Fayd]

Originally posted by: JTsyo

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby
lol, at #2

#1 Hitler didn't want to invade Britain. He'd prefer them to become an ally or accept his presence in Europe. Why waste resources on invading Britain when he could force a truce with them and move on east. It is thought that Hitler allowed the troops at Dunkirk to leave because it would help his case in forcing a truce with them later on.

#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 Battleship in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

fix'd

I always wondered if the US could have pulled off D-Day without Britain as a base. Though I guess they would have landed in Britain first if that was the case.

in that case we'd just go with north africa as a base, and land either in italy or the iberian peninsula.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby


#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 destroyers in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

Bismarck was a battleship, not a destroyer and Germany had many of them. In addition to the Bismarck and her sister ship the Tirpitz they had a whole slew of smaller pocket battleships and battlecruisers. That however is completely irrelevant to this topic as battleships have little impact on invasions. They're designed to fight other surface vessels and would have been bombed to smithereens if they tried to support an invasion of England. The Royal Navy would have had very little to so with it, for the invasion to succeed the Royal Air Force had to be neutralized. That was what the Battle of Britain was all about, Germany attempted to wipe out the RAF to pave the way for an invasion because whoever controlled the skies would win. Germany lost the Battle of Britain, so the invasion plans could not go forward.

My bad on the ship class.

My point is that the German Navy was not large enough to support the troop transports across the channel to Britain. You cannot have an invasion (in this case) without a secure beachhead. Sure they probably could have landed their troops, however once the entire Royal Navy shows up and blasts the crap out of your beachhead and thus cuts off your resupply routes you're screwed. They could have continued to supply via air drop, however they did not have much success with this later on in the war and they did not achieve air superiority. Having had air superiority, the planned invasion would still have been a major headache due to the superior size of the Royal navy's fleet.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Oh, and by the way, WRONG. The invasion of England was completely unlike the island hopping campaign the US waged in the Pacific. Since Germany controlled France both sides could easily cover the English Channel with a blanket of fighters and bombers. Neither navy could do jack shit because to sail into the Channel was to die. Period. Air power controlled the Channel, NOT sea power. The Royal navy would not have been the force that would have repelled an invasion fleet, it was the Royal Air Force. If the German navy entered the channel without having defeated the RAF first it would have been bombed out of the water and if the Royal Navy tried to show up to sink barges the Luftwaffe would have had a turkey shoot blowing them up. The entire fate of the invasion was decided by the Battle of Britain. Since the Germans were unable to get air superiority over the channel the invasion could not go forward and sea power had NOTHING to do with it.

 

[VoteQuimby]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: VoteQuimby


#2 They were tired of wasting resources (men, planes, fuel) on a lost cause, as Britain was gaining strength. Bismark was 1 of 2 destroyers in the entire German fleet. The royal navy's size far outweighed the German fleet. They didn't even finish theier one aircraft carrier. Rolling into Britain with just the Bismark would have been suicide.

Bismarck was a battleship, not a destroyer and Germany had many of them. In addition to the Bismarck and her sister ship the Tirpitz they had a whole slew of smaller pocket battleships and battlecruisers. That however is completely irrelevant to this topic as battleships have little impact on invasions. They're designed to fight other surface vessels and would have been bombed to smithereens if they tried to support an invasion of England. The Royal Navy would have had very little to so with it, for the invasion to succeed the Royal Air Force had to be neutralized. That was what the Battle of Britain was all about, Germany attempted to wipe out the RAF to pave the way for an invasion because whoever controlled the skies would win. Germany lost the Battle of Britain, so the invasion plans could not go forward.

My bad on the ship class.

My point is that the German Navy was not large enough to support the troop transports across the channel to Britain. You cannot have an invasion (in this case) without a secure beachhead. Sure they probably could have landed their troops, however once the entire Royal Navy shows up and blasts the crap out of your beachhead and thus cuts off your resupply routes you're screwed. They could have continued to supply via air drop, however they did not have much success with this later on in the war and they did not achieve air superiority. Having had air superiority, the planned invasion would still have been a major headache due to the superior size of the Royal navy's fleet.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Oh, and by the way, WRONG. The invasion of England was completely unlike the island hopping campaign the US waged in the Pacific. Since Germany controlled France both sides could easily cover the English Channel with a blanket of fighters and bombers. Neither navy could do jack shit because to sail into the Channel was to die. Period. Air power controlled the Channel, NOT sea power. The Royal navy would not have been the force that would have repelled an invasion fleet, it was the Royal Air Force. If the German navy entered the channel without having defeated the RAF first it would have been bombed out of the water and if the Royal Navy tried to show up to sink barges the Luftwaffe would have had a turkey shoot blowing them up. The entire fate of the invasion was decided by the Battle of Britain. Since the Germans were unable to get air superiority over the channel the invasion could not go forward and sea power had NOTHING to do with it.

hmm, I wouldn't use the word NOTHING. See, your not understanding what I said. First they need to achieve air superiority, which they were on the brink of doing. Second you must have SOME type of naval presence or superiority in order to get your troops across the channel and maintain supply shipments across. Sea power had everything to do with preparing for the invasion of Britain. It was the means of transporting troops, tanks, and supplies in order to invade. You cannot invade a country via air superiority. You have to actually have a physical presence on the ground. I agree that the fate of the invasion hinged on BOB, however even if air superiority was achieved by the Germans, you don't think the Royal Navy would have had some impact on defending the channel coast and attacking a German beachhead?

 

[Gothgar]

WW2 was so fucking interesting, so many things could have gone a different way

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: Gothgar
WW2 was so fucking interesting, so many things could have gone a different way

This. Although Dunkirk was a massive fuckup. Could have been REALLY ugly.

 

[adlep]

Can you explain to me why controlling the skies was so important?
Again, the British ground attack planes sucked big time during the 1940/41. They could easily be shot down by the Nazi Invasion fleet's AA fire without doing any major damage to the invasion forces.
Even if the Spitfires and Hurricanes would freely roam the airspace, they would not be able to do much damage against the ground targets.

Anyway, the reason # 1....Unbelievable luck...They were able to evacuate 380,000 soldiers. That is a massive, massive escape. All of these men came back 4 years latter in a from on a Normandy Invasion Force, so it was a huge mistake for Hitler to not neutralizing 300,000 + turkeys on the beach.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

I agree with techs & Sandorski that the failure of the Luftwaffe to neutralize the RAF was the primary reason the Nazis never had a chance invading the Isles. Dunkirk was a massive tactical error on Hitler's part but even if the Nazis had taken those soldiers out on the beach, the end result would have been the same, primarily because those troops weren't critical components of the RAF. It certainly wouldn't have delayed the end any more than the time it would've taken us to build enough atom bombs to use on Germany (though we probably would've used em on Germany before Japan if the Nazis were still resisting at that point).

The two big breaks the Brits got during WWII came on June 22nd & December 11th of 1941. Opening the Eastern Front against the USSR was suicide, declaring war on the USA was a second round to the temple. I do not at all mean to denigrate the Brits or downplay their contribution to the Allied effort, but the Soviet Union sapped the Nazis of men, supplies, & morale while we got our wartime production into full swing. Those 300,000 men left at Dunkirk pale in comparison to the number of Russians/Soviets who died defending their land. By 1943, & increasingly in 1944 & 1945, the US was producing war material faster than the Germans could destroy it. That's why we won.

 

[adlep]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
I agree with techs & Sandorski that the failure of the Luftwaffe to neutralize the RAF was the primary reason the Nazis never had a chance invading the Isles. Dunkirk was a massive tactical error on Hitler's part but even if the Nazis had taken those soldiers out on the beach, the end result would have been the same, primarily because those troops weren't critical components of the RAF.

My point is that the RAF by itself could not have saved GB, because it consisted of MOSTLY 2 good fighters with a very limited ground support capabilities at that time.

You know -the Spitfire and Hurricane MG bullets were not capable of doing a serious damage against ships and tanks.

If the Germans would taken out 380,000 prisoners and use them for a forced labor and what not, it would mean that there would be 380,000 less soldiers to defend GB and 380,000 free labor for ze German war machine. That would be a major win for Germany.

The RAF alone was not capable of stopping the invasion. The English fleet was not capable of stopping the invasion as well, because the English Channel is so narrow. If they would try to mass their fleet at the English Channel to prevent invasion, they would have gotten terminated by ze German bombers (which the Nazis had plenty).


Again, the RAF at that time was a strictly an air-defense weapon with a very limited, sucky ground attack planes and sucky soldiers with crappy equipment.

GB - saved by a pure luck.

 

[lupi]

The channel's not that wide and the luftwaffe had some pretty good antiship planes. Would have been a very interesting event to study had they tried to make a limited crossing.

A bigger failure was allowing malta to fester. Should have been a near immediate target after italy joined. Taking the rock would have posed a greater problem, but without the US forces to back them up losing malta would have shut them out of the med.