High temps with water cooling

[EarthwormJim]

Originally posted by: legoman666

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: legoman666


Will do once I get home. However, I am having problems booting right now (mobo/ram troubles for another thread) so maybe not.

your having problems booting?

Oh boy, i dont think the problem is your cooling then. Quite possibly a bad motherboard or bad cpu giving wrong temps.

Once you get the booting issue worked out, post this thread again in cases and cooling.

Recently it won't reboot properly, but it runs 100% fine once it actually does reboot. It gets stuck while detecting RAM. I still haven't figured out what the problem is, but turning the comp off for like.... 16-18 hours usually fixes it. IE:

I rebooted last night at 10pm because I installed Vista SP1.
Screen blanks, comes back, POST screen comes up, tells me my CPU speed/multiplier/type.
Stops at scanning memory.
I tried resetting bios, leaving the comp off for a 6 hours (overnight), moving the RAM to different slots, trying just 1 stick of RAM at a time in various slots, nothing works.
I get home from work, and it fires right up. I'm thinking bad mobo. Like I said, that's for a different thread

Anyway, back to the temps:
Idle temps
CPU: 36 37 33 39
Water: 24.8C
Rad air intake: 21.9C

Load temps
CPU: 63 62 58 63
Water: 27.4C
Rad air intake: 22.3
Rad air exhaust: 25.6C

Ambient: 20.9C

Seems to be a large temperature difference on core 3. Maybe try remounting. What are you using for load (prime95?)?

You could be tightening to much too with your mount. Even pressure is what you want not a crap load of pressure in one corner.

You may have just gotten a really bad chip.

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: EarthwormJim

Originally posted by: legoman666

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: legoman666


Will do once I get home. However, I am having problems booting right now (mobo/ram troubles for another thread) so maybe not.

your having problems booting?

Oh boy, i dont think the problem is your cooling then. Quite possibly a bad motherboard or bad cpu giving wrong temps.

Once you get the booting issue worked out, post this thread again in cases and cooling.

Recently it won't reboot properly, but it runs 100% fine once it actually does reboot. It gets stuck while detecting RAM. I still haven't figured out what the problem is, but turning the comp off for like.... 16-18 hours usually fixes it. IE:

I rebooted last night at 10pm because I installed Vista SP1.
Screen blanks, comes back, POST screen comes up, tells me my CPU speed/multiplier/type.
Stops at scanning memory.
I tried resetting bios, leaving the comp off for a 6 hours (overnight), moving the RAM to different slots, trying just 1 stick of RAM at a time in various slots, nothing works.
I get home from work, and it fires right up. I'm thinking bad mobo. Like I said, that's for a different thread

Anyway, back to the temps:
Idle temps
CPU: 36 37 33 39
Water: 24.8C
Rad air intake: 21.9C

Load temps
CPU: 63 62 58 63
Water: 27.4C
Rad air intake: 22.3
Rad air exhaust: 25.6C

Ambient: 20.9C

Seems to be a large temperature difference on core 3. Maybe try remounting. What are you using for load (prime95?)?

You could be tightening to much too with your mount. Even pressure is what you want not a crap load of pressure in one corner.

You may have just gotten a really bad chip.

I think the temp sensor on core 3 just reads lower than the others. It has been consistently low over the course of several remounts. I think I might buy a new Q6600 and or waterblock.

 

[DerwenArtos12]

IMHO, given the restrictiveness of those EK blocks you definitely could use a less restrictive cpu block and some pretty potent fans on the radiator. It's an investment for sure but, a XSPC delta v2 block and three zalman zm-f3s could make a pretty signifigant dent in those temps. The tdx is pretty restrictive.

 

[aigomorla]

Can you tell me your loop order,

Also a picture.

I dont understand how your cpu temps are so high and your water temps are that cool. Its telling me either your TDX isnt doing its job because theres a contact problem, or you looped your TDX wrong so the outlet is the inlet, and its not working properly.

A picture would it up very nicely.

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
IMHO, given the restrictiveness of those EK blocks you definitely could use a less restrictive cpu block and some pretty potent fans on the radiator. It's an investment for sure but, a XSPC delta v2 block and three zalman zm-f3s could make a pretty signifigant dent in those temps. The tdx is pretty restrictive.

My fans are already pretty hefty, I'm using 3 Scythe Ultra Kaze 120x38mm fans: http://www.frozencpu.com/produ...M_DFS123812L-2000.html

And after some reading about bowing (I always thought flatter = better, my how times have changed. I've been out of the loop too long), I have decided to purchase an Dtek FuZion block with the accelerator kit so I can bow the block.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: legoman666

Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
IMHO, given the restrictiveness of those EK blocks you definitely could use a less restrictive cpu block and some pretty potent fans on the radiator. It's an investment for sure but, a XSPC delta v2 block and three zalman zm-f3s could make a pretty signifigant dent in those temps. The tdx is pretty restrictive.

My fans are already pretty hefty, I'm using 3 Scythe Ultra Kaze 120x38mm fans: http://www.frozencpu.com/produ...M_DFS123812L-2000.html

And after some reading about bowing (I always thought flatter = better, my how times have changed. I've been out of the loop too long), I have decided to purchase an Dtek FuZion block with the accelerator kit so I can bow the block.

you need a new pump for that my friend. Also a new loop cuz the HD3870's will kill your temps.

Use the D-tek without washer or nozzles unless you can pull it on a cpu only loop.

Also im still thinking you had a contact problem. :T

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Can you tell me your loop order,

Also a picture.

I dont understand how your cpu temps are so high and your water temps are that cool. Its telling me either your TDX isnt doing its job because theres a contact problem, or you looped your TDX wrong so the outlet is the inlet, and its not working properly.

A picture would it up very nicely.

Rez -> pump -> Rad -> HD3870 1 -> HD3870 2 -> TDX

I ordered a dtek fuzion. Hopefully my archaic, unbowed block is the problem. The thing was designed for old AMD chips without a IHS.

PIC: http://i28.photobucket.com/alb...an666/IMG_0490_sfs.jpg

As you can see, there's no second video card, just a floating water block It is being RMA'ed... hopefully should be back next week.

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: legoman666

Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
IMHO, given the restrictiveness of those EK blocks you definitely could use a less restrictive cpu block and some pretty potent fans on the radiator. It's an investment for sure but, a XSPC delta v2 block and three zalman zm-f3s could make a pretty signifigant dent in those temps. The tdx is pretty restrictive.

My fans are already pretty hefty, I'm using 3 Scythe Ultra Kaze 120x38mm fans: http://www.frozencpu.com/produ...M_DFS123812L-2000.html

And after some reading about bowing (I always thought flatter = better, my how times have changed. I've been out of the loop too long), I have decided to purchase an Dtek FuZion block with the accelerator kit so I can bow the block.

you need a new pump for that my friend. Also a new loop cuz the HD3870's will kill your temps.

Use the D-tek without washer or nozzles unless you can pull it on a cpu only loop.

Also im still thinking you had a contact problem. :T

New pump or second pump? My Eheim 1250 is rated at ~320gph. (it is also fuckin loud). I have no room for a second pump, but a new pump would be easy to install.

The Eheim 1260 is rated at 600gph but I don't think it would fit in my case (unless it is the exact same dimension as the 1250)

edit: just checked, the 1260 is too big.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: legoman666

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Can you tell me your loop order,

Also a picture.

I dont understand how your cpu temps are so high and your water temps are that cool. Its telling me either your TDX isnt doing its job because theres a contact problem, or you looped your TDX wrong so the outlet is the inlet, and its not working properly.

A picture would it up very nicely.

Rez -> pump -> Rad -> HD3870 1 -> HD3870 2 -> TDX

I ordered a dtek fuzion. Hopefully my archaic, unbowed block is the problem. The thing was designed for old AMD chips without a IHS.

PIC: http://i28.photobucket.com/alb...an666/IMG_0490_sfs.jpg

As you can see, there's no second video card, just a floating water block It is being RMA'ed... hopefully should be back next week.

Found your problem:

You put your GPU's b4 your CPU. Now full covered blocks can dump a GRIP of heat into your system. So the water is getting quite warm by the time it reaches your cpu.

Try moving the CPU up front if overclocking is your prime, and then feed the gpu's.

However i still recomend you splitting the loop up into two.

 

[WoodButcher]

Aigo I think is leaning the right way, That blok is not "optimized" for that chip, granted but I think it should be better than it is. What did the paste look like when you reseated? Was it clear or nearly paste free in the center? Have you checked with a razoblade for flat? I don't like the loop order but that is uneducated opinion, I always run, rad> cpu> nb> vid but I've read enough arguments to the order to know I don't know enough.

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: legoman666

Originally posted by: aigomorla
Can you tell me your loop order,

Also a picture.

I dont understand how your cpu temps are so high and your water temps are that cool. Its telling me either your TDX isnt doing its job because theres a contact problem, or you looped your TDX wrong so the outlet is the inlet, and its not working properly.

A picture would it up very nicely.

Rez -> pump -> Rad -> HD3870 1 -> HD3870 2 -> TDX

I ordered a dtek fuzion. Hopefully my archaic, unbowed block is the problem. The thing was designed for old AMD chips without a IHS.

PIC: http://i28.photobucket.com/alb...an666/IMG_0490_sfs.jpg

As you can see, there's no second video card, just a floating water block It is being RMA'ed... hopefully should be back next week.

Found your problem:

You put your GPU's b4 your CPU. Now full covered blocks can dump a GRIP of heat into your system. So the water is getting quite warm by the time it reaches your cpu.

Try moving the CPU up front if overclocking is your prime, and then feed the gpu's.

However i still recomend you splitting the loop up into two.

I honestly do not think that is an issue. The delta T between the inlet and outlet of a single water block is usually < .5C

Lol, besides, re ordering the loop would be impossible for me to do. I built and designed this case from scratch

 

[aigomorla]

actually it was tested on XS and shown by synx that having a full cover gpu 8800GTX on the loop can raise your temps by almost 7-8C.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/f...ghlight=fullcover+core

His last comments:
Conclusion:

I knew I was going to use the EK full cover block in the end, but always wanted to know what the difference would be. These types of things bug me for not knowing.

I already had a MCW60 laying around and just had to buy the G80 bracket. I kept everything the same as much as possible. I believe that just about any water cooling solution used for the 8800GTX would be vastly better than the stock air cooler. Temps were almost cut in half.

By the way the 8800GTX at full load added about 7-8°C the the CPU core temperature.



These guys arent the coldest running gpu's ya know:
http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0886.jpg

So i know what im talking about. With those kinds of cards on a full cover, you really need to split the loop up. :T

But besides that, im still betting on the contact problem.


ohhh i remember that case now. Do you have nozzles on your TDX? I really dont get whats wrong besides contact problem, and gpu's on the loop.

Those are my two main guesses at the moment. Did ya lap the cpu? you might wanna try that as well after you tested it on stock for a few days.

or you might just have a bad quad that cant overclock very well. :\

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: aigomorla
actually it was tested on XS and shown by synx that having a full cover gpu 8800GTX on the loop can raise your temps by almost 7-8C.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/f...ghlight=fullcover+core

His last comments:
Conclusion:

I knew I was going to use the EK full cover block in the end, but always wanted to know what the difference would be. These types of things bug me for not knowing.

I already had a MCW60 laying around and just had to buy the G80 bracket. I kept everything the same as much as possible. I believe that just about any water cooling solution used for the 8800GTX would be vastly better than the stock air cooler. Temps were almost cut in half.

By the way the 8800GTX at full load added about 7-8°C the the CPU core temperature.



These guys arent the coldest running gpu's ya know:
http://i125.photobucket.com/al...aigomorla/IMG_0886.jpg

So i know what im talking about. With those kinds of cards on a full cover, you really need to split the loop up. :T

But besides that, im still betting on the contact problem.


ohhh i remember that case now. Do you have nozzles on your TDX? I really dont get whats wrong besides contact problem, and gpu's on the loop.

Those are my two main guesses at the moment. Did ya lap the cpu? you might wanna try that as well after you tested it on stock for a few days.

or you might just have a bad quad that cant overclock very well. :\

I won't argue with the 7-8C temp rise, but I'll bet that the order of the loop doesn't matter and that the temp rise is due to the increased restrictiveness of the loop with the GPU blocks.

Yea, at this point, I am thinking it is a contact problem due to the convex IHS. I do have a nozzle (stock) on my TDX. I originally didn't (I took it off when I swapped the A64 top for a S775 top) but my temps were hitting 85-90C load.

At this point, there is only 1 GPU in the loop, but both blocks are in. My 2nd 3870 is currently being RMA'ed and I didn't feel like taking the block out of the loop so I just unscrewed the card from the block while keeping the block inline.

The CPU is not lapped; something I should probably do though...

 

[WoodButcher]

Originally posted by: legoman666

Lol, besides, re ordering the loop would be impossible for me to do. I built and designed this case from scratch

Yep, neat bit of work. The loop order is just a pet peeve of mine, without question the order would not affect temps to the degree that your seeing.
Concave chip? Are you using a backplate?

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: WoodButcher

Originally posted by: legoman666

Lol, besides, re ordering the loop would be impossible for me to do. I built and designed this case from scratch

Yep, neat bit of work. The loop order is just a pet peeve of mine, without question the order would not affect temps to the degree that your seeing.
Concave chip? Are you using a backplate?

I remember the sides of the IHS not having any TIM when I was applying Ceramique with a credit card. I thought it was due to the fact that I wasn't applying even pressure on the card, so I was scraping it off the edges. But now that I know some IHS's are convex, that must be what the deal was.

edit: like this http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/3020/cpuihssu1.gif
TIM gets scraped off the edges when I flatten the middle with credit card.

No backplate, do I need one? I've never had one before.. what's it do?

 

[aigomorla]

backplate allows for a firm contact between your block and ihs.

That firm contact is required in block bowing so you basically CLAMP that block on.

Only problem is the force required is kinda steep. Not to the point of breaking your board, but can warp it significantly so you lose contact on your mosfets from the sinks.

The backplate is mandatory when your using a bowed block without exception. If you dont, your board can take damage over time from the warping.

 

[WoodButcher]

^^^What he said^^^

As far as the tim goes I spread w/ a card too, my goal being the little hump, opposite what your drawing so eloquently depicts. Most of my chips are lapped, my quad will be during my current re-build but it isn't bad now. Check w/ a straight edge like a razor when you pull the block next. Also eyeball the old tim, when you pull the block if you had good contact you will see almost all the tim gone in the center.
A backplate will definitely help in your quest for cool, This is the only Thermaltake product on my boards, The one reminder to myself that I was a noob once too!

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: WoodButcher
^^^What he said^^^

As far as the tim goes I spread w/ a card too, my goal being the little hump, opposite what your drawing so eloquently depicts. Most of my chips are lapped, my quad will be during my current re-build but it isn't bad now. Check w/ a straight edge like a razor when you pull the block next. Also eyeball the old tim, when you pull the block if you had good contact you will see almost all the tim gone in the center.
A backplate will definitely help in your quest for cool, This is the only Thermaltake product on my boards, The one reminder to myself that I was a noob once too!

Hmmmm. Now that I think about it, my old S939 mobo had a backplate (stock?). I ordered one from here: http://store.cwc-group.com/775backplate.html Thanks for the advice.

 

[WoodButcher]

Good move, be sure to insulate it from the board and use a shim like shoebox cardboard to add just a hair more pressure to the back of the chip. I use 1/4" high density foam weatherstrip because it is the right thickness w/ the fusion bolts. I stack them in this order from the back of the mobo, bolt through the plate, plastic washer, through mobo, plastic washer. nut. This holds the whole mess to the mobo and adds support behind the chip. Have a care w/ the thickness of your insulating material and shim. You don't want to bend the board but support the chip when you apply the block. Use side nippers to cut off any wires that come through the back of your mobo to help prevent grounding w/ the backplate. It looks like those holes are threaded nuts, You may want to drill them out. I don't know. Hellova good price, if I didn't have the TT's I'd buy a few. Gawd,,, I hate Thermaltake. Aquagate is in that same category of mine but I was only stupid enough to buy one AG.:roll:

 

[legoman666]

OK, so I got the Dtek FuZion installed with an o-ring to bow the block, a backplate, and the nozzle for quadcores.
Old temps were with 1 idle hd3870, new temps are with 2 3870's @ full load

full load temps (all 4 cores @ 100%, GPU's @ ~95%)
CPU:
45 46 40 48
GPU 1:
47
GPU 2:
45

semi load temps (all 4 cores @ 100%, GPU's @ 0%)
CPU:
43 44 39 45
GPU 1:
34
GPU 1:
36

idle temps (all 4 cores @ ~2%, GPU's @ 0%)
CPU:
32 33 28 36
GPU 1:
33
GPU 2:
36

For comparison, here are the old load temps (with only 1 hd3870 idling):
CPU: 63 62 58 63

So, even though there are now 2 3870's dumping 200w of heat into the loop, CPU temps are still 10-15C lower! Damn swell! Time to finally overclock this chip!

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: legoman666


So, even though there are now 2 3870's dumping 200w of heat into the loop, CPU temps are still 10-15C lower! fantastic! Time to finally overclock this chip!

Great glad to see it worked. I had a real big feeling it was a contact issue. That backplate and block must of fixed it.

Hope you enjoy your system and loop! dont get too caught up in it tho and keep an eye on that alu!


Also, ummm, sorry its a forum peeve, but can you edit that F word?

 

[legoman666]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: legoman666


So, even though there are now 2 3870's dumping 200w of heat into the loop, CPU temps are still 10-15C lower! fantastic! Time to finally overclock this chip!

Great glad to see it worked. I had a real big feeling it was a contact issue. That backplate and block must of fixed it.

Hope you enjoy your system and loop! dont get too caught up in it tho and keep an eye on that alu!


Also, ummm, sorry its a forum peeve, but can you edit that F word?

fixed