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High school should end in 10th grade, according to panel's proposal

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BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
So the best way to compete in the global economy is to make sure a large number of kids get LESS education and more preparation for jobs at Burger King? This must be one of those things that sounds good until you listen to yourself talking, because I can't imagine that someone has really thought about this and decided it was a good idea.
Think about some of the people on that panel:
Rod Paige . . . faked results in Houston, openly hostile against public school teachers.

The pension system has almost NOTHING to do with the fundamental problems in high school education. In essence some members of this group just wanted an excuse to cut retirement benefits for teachers.

Education in America is indeed bloated, inefficient, and ineffective. I'm sure many agree with that assessment. But why collect a bunch of failed Superintendents (Paige, Klein), failed secretary of eds (Paige, Riley), and failed governors (Engler) to come up with solutions? I wonder if either Paige or Klein suggested dramatic cutbacks in central administration or ending redundant testing regimes (particularly the woefully weak state-tests in places like TX)?

If you want better teachers, then create teacher academies at 4yr universities/colleges, have stringent criteria for entry (not SAT, ACT), but those that enter get free rides. After graduation require a real exit exam for initial certification and then treat them just like other professional school grads:
1) intern for a year or two (entry salary, annual COLA, full benefits)
2) highly supervised semi-independent work for two more years
3) Step II exam to become a fully licensed independent teacher
4) Either 3 years of independent teaching or a year in fellowship to become eligible to take National Boards to become a Board-certified teacher
5) Only Board-certified teachers are eligible for tenure so quality teachers may get tenure in 5-7 years while weak teachers will NEVER get tenure.

That's the easy part :roll:. . . now getting better students/parents . . . oh, boy.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,353
4,065
126
I think we should introduce competition into our schools. Make it so that some kids who excel in sitting in a chair and regurgitating horse manure get rewarded over kids who have other interests and learning styles. Make learning about making money and social status. Pay teachers who know how best to train dogs. Kill he natural curiosity of every child to comprehend and navigate his or her world for the pure joy of being. Remember that competition is what creates perfection. Know that competition is nothing more or less than suppressed hate channeled and focused in one direction, the service of the ego. Build a world of winners and losers and pat yourself on the back that you were sick enough to succeed.

There is something wrong with education, all right, and it is that nobody has any real education at all. We do not know who we are and train and nurture that in us which is sick. Our world is a pretense, a sham, a joke in which we pretend to be awake and are in fact deeply asleep. To fix education is expensive. It will require you die to your illusions as to who you are.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,874
826
126
I know in a few asian countries grade school is cut to 3 grades, thus graduating high school is at 16, and college done at 21 or 22. It's not a bad plan.
 

JRich

Platinum Member
Jun 7, 2005
2,717
1
71
I wish HS ended in 10th grade. I was in vocational school in 11th and 12th grades earning college credits. I only had to go to high school for about 3 hours a day to take English and social studies type classes.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think we should introduce competition into our schools. Make it so that some kids who excel in sitting in a chair and regurgitating horse manure get rewarded over kids who have other interests and learning styles. Make learning about making money and social status. Pay teachers who know how best to train dogs. Kill he natural curiosity of every child to comprehend and navigate his or her world for the pure joy of being. Remember that competition is what creates perfection. Know that competition is nothing more or less than suppressed hate channeled and focused in one direction, the service of the ego. Build a world of winners and losers and pat yourself on the back that you were sick enough to succeed.

There is something wrong with education, all right, and it is that nobody has any real education at all. We do not know who we are and train and nurture that in us which is sick. Our world is a pretense, a sham, a joke in which we pretend to be awake and are in fact deeply asleep. To fix education is expensive. It will require you die to your illusions as to who you are.
That sounds like a lot of work. You don't need teachers to train dogs, just put up one of those invisible fences with the shock collars. Eventually the kid will get tired of trying to leave his house and will teach himself to mop the floor, or drive a cab, or program a computer or something.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
5
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think we should introduce competition into our schools. Make it so that some kids who excel in sitting in a chair and regurgitating horse manure get rewarded over kids who have other interests and learning styles. Make learning about making money and social status. Pay teachers who know how best to train dogs. Kill he natural curiosity of every child to comprehend and navigate his or her world for the pure joy of being. Remember that competition is what creates perfection. Know that competition is nothing more or less than suppressed hate channeled and focused in one direction, the service of the ego. Build a world of winners and losers and pat yourself on the back that you were sick enough to succeed.
I'm currently in self-love training, and intend to win the world Zen championship.



 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
101,424
5,497
126
high school should start at 9:30 am instead of 7:30 am. you can't teach a kid anything if their brain isn't awake yet, and for high school aged kids it isn't that early in the morning.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
I went to the worst high school in Indiana (the only non-accredited public school there, at least when I graduated in 1999), arguably one of the worst high school in the country. I learned literally nothing of substance there in four years. I took classes called 'Leisure Sports', 'Tennis, Volleyball, & Badminton', 'Physical Conditioning', and 'Astronomy' - all in one semester my senior year. At the same time, I was taking 'AP' calculus and AP English. My AP calculus teacher told me the first day that he would be unable to get a 2 on the AP test.

Would I have been better served getting out a year early? Definitely. I'm pretty sure I would have been better off getting out four years early, but I'd settle for two. I almost dropped out of high school and definitely would have if not for sports. My experience was probably different from most, but I think my case demonstrates that even if you learn nothing in high school, you can still do some things in college. Of course, I also went to a private, Catholic grade school from K-8, which is where I learned everything I knew before college. Had I gone to public schools the whole way through, I'm sure I would have dropped out of high school and stuck with my construction/janitor jobs that I worked at the time instead of going to college and grad school.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,353
4,065
126
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think we should introduce competition into our schools. Make it so that some kids who excel in sitting in a chair and regurgitating horse manure get rewarded over kids who have other interests and learning styles. Make learning about making money and social status. Pay teachers who know how best to train dogs. Kill he natural curiosity of every child to comprehend and navigate his or her world for the pure joy of being. Remember that competition is what creates perfection. Know that competition is nothing more or less than suppressed hate channeled and focused in one direction, the service of the ego. Build a world of winners and losers and pat yourself on the back that you were sick enough to succeed.
I'm currently in self-love training, and intend to win the world Zen championship.
Exactly, and so you never will. You only win by abandoning competition. To do that it helps to know what you feel. You do not see that you are a part of a rat race that is built into your perceptions. You may feel cool making these wiseacre remarks, hehe, but it I'm not in your league. I lost long ago.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,353
4,065
126
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think we should introduce competition into our schools. Make it so that some kids who excel in sitting in a chair and regurgitating horse manure get rewarded over kids who have other interests and learning styles. Make learning about making money and social status. Pay teachers who know how best to train dogs. Kill he natural curiosity of every child to comprehend and navigate his or her world for the pure joy of being. Remember that competition is what creates perfection. Know that competition is nothing more or less than suppressed hate channeled and focused in one direction, the service of the ego. Build a world of winners and losers and pat yourself on the back that you were sick enough to succeed.

There is something wrong with education, all right, and it is that nobody has any real education at all. We do not know who we are and train and nurture that in us which is sick. Our world is a pretense, a sham, a joke in which we pretend to be awake and are in fact deeply asleep. To fix education is expensive. It will require you die to your illusions as to who you are.
That sounds like a lot of work. You don't need teachers to train dogs, just put up one of those invisible fences with the shock collars. Eventually the kid will get tired of trying to leave his house and will teach himself to mop the floor, or drive a cab, or program a computer or something.
Might as well. It's what we do now.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Our current educational system badly needs reform. No need to reinvent the wheel, since most other developed nations have far better systems, just copy them.

Reading comprehension FTW! Looks to me like those students intending on a traditional 4 year college education would still likely be high school (taking prep classes) until they are in 12th grade.

Those who would rather be tradespersons etc should be allowed to graduate at 10th grade, then go into trade school and aprenticeship-type programs.

But as this seems to make common sense, never fear - it won't happen. The teachers union is far too powerful.

Fern
 

Darthvoy

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2004
1,826
1
0
you guys should read the essays by the award winning ex-teacher John Taylor Gatto. He basically explains why shools are actually dumbing down students.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
5
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think we should introduce competition into our schools. Make it so that some kids who excel in sitting in a chair and regurgitating horse manure get rewarded over kids who have other interests and learning styles. Make learning about making money and social status. Pay teachers who know how best to train dogs. Kill he natural curiosity of every child to comprehend and navigate his or her world for the pure joy of being. Remember that competition is what creates perfection. Know that competition is nothing more or less than suppressed hate channeled and focused in one direction, the service of the ego. Build a world of winners and losers and pat yourself on the back that you were sick enough to succeed.
I'm currently in self-love training, and intend to win the world Zen championship.
Exactly, and so you never will. You only win by abandoning competition. To do that it helps to know what you feel. You do not see that you are a part of a rat race that is built into your perceptions. You may feel cool making these wiseacre remarks, hehe, but it I'm not in your league. I lost long ago.
Cool? Wiseacre? Moi?

Aw. And here I thought I was a feelingless, rat-racing-less, perceptionless lump of non-stuff, permanently bound to the vast nothingness by an all-encompassing shroud of metaphysical meaninglessness. I'm at peace with my insignificance. I rejoice in my insignificance. Hear my roar-like laugh as I see myself fade. Yet you infer EGO from my exultation?

How very sad. We write, we speak, we hear . . . . and it's all a lie; except that by abandoning what we already don't possess we can extrude ourselves through the Giant Rectum and - soiled and stinky - at last see that we at last have achieved the knowledge of knowing nothing.

I am groping; I am groping. But wait, I hear a sound! It is . . . . the wind.

Maybe it's the wind that hit your house and - voila! - there you weren't. But with my luck, it will just spin the blades of a god-like wind-turbine generator and produce ample power for PHEVs that aren't there, leaving me by the side of the non-road that leads to the back of my head.

I am sooooooooooo non-wiseacre-ish. Seriously.


 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,353
4,065
126
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think we should introduce competition into our schools. Make it so that some kids who excel in sitting in a chair and regurgitating horse manure get rewarded over kids who have other interests and learning styles. Make learning about making money and social status. Pay teachers who know how best to train dogs. Kill he natural curiosity of every child to comprehend and navigate his or her world for the pure joy of being. Remember that competition is what creates perfection. Know that competition is nothing more or less than suppressed hate channeled and focused in one direction, the service of the ego. Build a world of winners and losers and pat yourself on the back that you were sick enough to succeed.
I'm currently in self-love training, and intend to win the world Zen championship.
Exactly, and so you never will. You only win by abandoning competition. To do that it helps to know what you feel. You do not see that you are a part of a rat race that is built into your perceptions. You may feel cool making these wiseacre remarks, hehe, but it I'm not in your league. I lost long ago.
Cool? Wiseacre? Moi?

Aw. And here I thought I was a feelingless, rat-racing-less, perceptionless lump of non-stuff, permanently bound to the vast nothingness by an all-encompassing shroud of metaphysical meaninglessness. I'm at peace with my insignificance. I rejoice in my insignificance. Hear my roar-like laugh as I see myself fade. Yet you infer EGO from my exultation?

How very sad. We write, we speak, we hear . . . . and it's all a lie; except that by abandoning what we already don't possess we can extrude ourselves through the Giant Rectum and - soiled and stinky - at last see that we at last have achieved the knowledge of knowing nothing.

I am groping; I am groping. But wait, I hear a sound! It is . . . . the wind.

Maybe it's the wind that hit your house and - voila! - there you weren't. But with my luck, it will just spin the blades of a god-like wind-turbine generator and produce ample power for PHEVs that aren't there, leaving me by the side of the non-road that leads to the back of my head.

I am sooooooooooo non-wiseacre-ish. Seriously.
How very sad? What do you mean by sad? Who is it that experiences this feeling?
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,708
9
81
HS ends at grade 10.

Everyone gets 2 more years of free education. It can be taken at a high-school like place but have more availability of AP/IB type programs and get rid of all the extra requirements (must have x credits of english, y credits in arts, z in science, gym etc), or it can be taken at a trade school.

:thumbsup:
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Public school systems today are one big pile of sh!t. If teens could get out two years earlier that would be great.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
5
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: shira
Cool? Wiseacre? Moi?

Aw. And here I thought I was a feelingless, rat-racing-less, perceptionless lump of non-stuff, permanently bound to the vast nothingness by an all-encompassing shroud of metaphysical meaninglessness. I'm at peace with my insignificance. I rejoice in my insignificance. Hear my roar-like laugh as I see myself fade. Yet you infer EGO from my exultation?

How very sad. We write, we speak, we hear . . . . and it's all a lie; except that by abandoning what we already don't possess we can extrude ourselves through the Giant Rectum and - soiled and stinky - at last see that we at last have achieved the knowledge of knowing nothing.

I am groping; I am groping. But wait, I hear a sound! It is . . . . the wind.

Maybe it's the wind that hit your house and - voila! - there you weren't. But with my luck, it will just spin the blades of a god-like wind-turbine generator and produce ample power for PHEVs that aren't there, leaving me by the side of the non-road that leads to the back of my head.

I am sooooooooooo non-wiseacre-ish. Seriously.
How very sad? What do you mean by sad? Who is it that experiences this feeling?
It appears there is a "rule," The Rule of Moonbeam: Don't describe anything directly or in concrete terms. Describe things only in terms of symbols or as the corollary - describe the glove, not the hand. Don't give credence to personal wants and desires, especially if they are referenced in terms of some concrete, external thing; instead, refer to oneself from the viewpoint of that which is desired - attract the beloved, don't seek the beloved. Never speak of worldly things; describe metaphysical things. Never bring things to the level of Moonbeam as an actual breathing, living human being with describable real-world experiences; only use Moonbeam as a vague symbol, with experiences indirectly described in allegorical language.

What's the point? If you state something directly, do you lose? Is this some bizarre way of not stepping on cracks? If you make yourself real, will the pain return?

And it's all so unnecessary. Understanding the Yin and the Yang doesn't require circumscribing one's style of communication. Using prosaic language doesn't mean one isn't enlightened. Often, simple is best.

You appear to be as bound up in this complex system of yours as a Chassidic Jew is in his, wearing heavy flannel clothes in summertime.

So much pain. So much fear. And when I see pain and fear, I feel sad.

How very sad.
 

Legend

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2005
2,254
1
0
I pretty much started college at grade 11 with a bunch of AP classes. I'm not sure if it's for everyone.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think we should introduce competition into our schools. Make it so that some kids who excel in sitting in a chair and regurgitating horse manure get rewarded over kids who have other interests and learning styles. Make learning about making money and social status. Pay teachers who know how best to train dogs. Kill he natural curiosity of every child to comprehend and navigate his or her world for the pure joy of being. Remember that competition is what creates perfection. Know that competition is nothing more or less than suppressed hate channeled and focused in one direction, the service of the ego. Build a world of winners and losers and pat yourself on the back that you were sick enough to succeed.
I'm currently in self-love training, and intend to win the world Zen championship.
Exactly, and so you never will. You only win by abandoning competition. To do that it helps to know what you feel. You do not see that you are a part of a rat race that is built into your perceptions. You may feel cool making these wiseacre remarks, hehe, but it I'm not in your league. I lost long ago.
Cool? Wiseacre? Moi?

Aw. And here I thought I was a feelingless, rat-racing-less, perceptionless lump of non-stuff, permanently bound to the vast nothingness by an all-encompassing shroud of metaphysical meaninglessness. I'm at peace with my insignificance. I rejoice in my insignificance. Hear my roar-like laugh as I see myself fade. Yet you infer EGO from my exultation?

How very sad. We write, we speak, we hear . . . . and it's all a lie; except that by abandoning what we already don't possess we can extrude ourselves through the Giant Rectum and - soiled and stinky - at last see that we at last have achieved the knowledge of knowing nothing.

I am groping; I am groping. But wait, I hear a sound! It is . . . . the wind.

Maybe it's the wind that hit your house and - voila! - there you weren't. But with my luck, it will just spin the blades of a god-like wind-turbine generator and produce ample power for PHEVs that aren't there, leaving me by the side of the non-road that leads to the back of my head.

I am sooooooooooo non-wiseacre-ish. Seriously.

:laugh:

Fern

You guys are very entertaining today :thumbsup:
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
If you drop Gym and Art and Homec and other useless classes, that do not prepare you for the workforce, then you might be able to save some money. However, if you still have to have teachers to teach all of those classes, then you cant save much.

This article is interesting but it raises some other issues. For instance if you get out of school at 16, then a lot of people at 16 will want to drive a car as a necessity to get to work. Also, people at 16 will be entering the workforce full-time.

Here are some problems I see in the High School Environment:

1. Grades are too dependent on homework assignments. Lots of places, the homework is 50% or your grade. I think this is way too high. We should make High School more like college, putting more stress on projects, term papers, presentations, quizes, Tests. Too much homework can be a bad thing. A weekly quiz is far better. Doing homework is fine, but too much emphasis is put on turning in homework. Many kids do the homework and then dont turn it in, leave it at home or whatever. I think the homework is making some teachers lazy. If a teacher gives homework, then every paper should have to be individually graded by the teacher, not the students, during class time.

2. Do away with Detention. If kids dont behave call their parents to come pick them up immediately, or make them stand in the hall or in the back of the room. If kids can act up too much just call the Cops, or give them probation or suspension and tell them not to come back without their guardian. Teachers are not baby sitters.

3. Teachers have too many days off for training. Cut that out right away and make them do training during the summer. Let them have training on their time. Put the trainng on tape and they can watch it in their spare time.

4. Change the semesters so Fall ends at Christmas and Spring begins after new years. It is stupid to do otherwise. It just makes more sense. Most colleges are run this way. Some colleges even give off a week for thanksgiving, and then close down a week before Christmas. One college I went to set up their schedule so the last week of class was always for finals, and class was used for studying and Finals Prep.

5. Make the 7th and 8th Grade part of High School. Jr high is just stupid.

6. Make some vocational high schools. One for Factories, one for Farming, one for the arts, etc.
 

JACKHAMMER

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,870
0
76
Originally posted by: piasabird
If you drop Gym and Art and Homec and other useless classes, that do not prepare you for the workforce, then you might be able to save some money. However, if you still have to have teachers to teach all of those classes, then you cant save much.

This article is interesting but it raises some other issues. For instance if you get out of school at 16, then a lot of people at 16 will want to drive a car as a necessity to get to work. Also, people at 16 will be entering the workforce full-time.

Here are some problems I see in the High School Environment:

1. Grades are too dependent on homework assignments. Lots of places, the homework is 50% or your grade. I think this is way too high. We should make High School more like college, putting more stress on projects, term papers, presentations, quizes, Tests. Too much homework can be a bad thing. A weekly quiz is far better. Doing homework is fine, but too much emphasis is put on turning in homework. Many kids do the homework and then dont turn it in, leave it at home or whatever. I think the homework is making some teachers lazy. If a teacher gives homework, then every paper should have to be individually graded by the teacher, not the students, during class time.

2. Do away with Detention. If kids dont behave call their parents to come pick them up immediately, or make them stand in the hall or in the back of the room. If kids can act up too much just call the Cops, or give them probation or suspension and tell them not to come back without their guardian. Teachers are not baby sitters.

3. Teachers have too many days off for training. Cut that out right away and make them do training during the summer. Let them have training on their time. Put the trainng on tape and they can watch it in their spare time.

4. Change the semesters so Fall ends at Christmas and Spring begins after new years. It is stupid to do otherwise. It just makes more sense. Most colleges are run this way. Some colleges even give off a week for thanksgiving, and then close down a week before Christmas. One college I went to set up their schedule so the last week of class was always for finals, and class was used for studying and Finals Prep.

5. Make the 7th and 8th Grade part of High School. Jr high is just stupid.

6. Make some vocational high schools. One for Factories, one for Farming, one for the arts, etc.


This post just wreaks of being written by a 14 year old procrastinator. No homework? Do you realize that a 14 year old has no where near the organizational skills or internal motivation of a college student? Do you understand that by stressing homework, it is their way to make an incentive for the kids practicing. And by grading in class you see what others did wrong, which by seeing where others fail give you a hint on your future problems. Think man.
 

hofan41

Senior member
Jan 5, 2006
225
0
0
sadly in my high school in san diego, i took so many AP courses and was challenged so much that college was a breeze at uc irvine. i think it has more to do with motivating kids to achieve more
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
American public school system = trash

Asia will dominate partly due to uneducated Americans.
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,425
45
91
Nothing wrong with going to community college or university at a younger age. I did it, I have friends that did it, and we definitely beat the other folks to being productive members of the workforce.
 

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