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High school should end in 10th grade, according to panel's proposal

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Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
Can someone explain the vaunted Asian school system to me? Is it better because they teach different things, or the teachers are better, or because there is severe grade inflation?

If other school systems are so superior, it would only make sense to model ourselves after theirs. Yet we don't. Are we so arrogant, or are those systems really not 'better' at all?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
5
81
Originally posted by: Aisengard
Can someone explain the vaunted Asian school system to me? Is it better because they teach different things, or the teachers are better, or because there is severe grade inflation?

If other school systems are so superior, it would only make sense to model ourselves after theirs. Yet we don't. Are we so arrogant, or are those systems really not 'better' at all?
One major and unavoidable difference is that Asian schools are homogeneous and ours are not. That homogeneity is both a major advantage and a major disadvantage. I think the consensus is that homogeneity helps students progress more rapidly while in school, but that students in more mixed environments may learn things that are difficult to test for, but are better prepared for the real world.

Another difference (somewhat related to the homogeneity issue) is class. I suspect that America has a much larger underclass relative to the total population than does, say, Japan. Failing to account for class (= economic status) can lead to large distortions. For example, it's conventional wisdom in America that private schools are much better than public schools. But when study results are corrected for class, the apparent differences between American public and private schools disappear.

Grading (and therefore possible grade inflation) is irrelevant when properly comparing school systems. Studies are designed to administer equivalent standardized tests to the students in different counties and the results (the actual scores, not grades) are directly compared.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
What do you mean by homogeneity? Do you mean separated gender-wise? I don't see how that would allow people to advance quicker, unless you mean they would be less distracted by the opposite sex.

I also don't know what you mean by class. Do you mean that in Asia, only the moderately well-off and up get educated? Only the kids with a stable home environment and parents that can care for them get to go to school?
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
commissions, committes, and bears, oh my!.

Wasn't it a commission that set out to design a better horse and came up with the camel?
 

OFFascist

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
985
0
0
Originally posted by: flyboy84
Too many people are going to college these days "just because." It is probably one of the major factors that has contributed to America's lack of skilled tradespeople.
I agree, the whole education "industry" is pretty ****** up. Right now it seems like its all about pushing everybody into college so that they can squeeze them for money, and at the same time since so many people are getting degrees they are pretty much devalued.

 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
5
81
Originally posted by: Aisengard
What do you mean by homogeneity? Do you mean separated gender-wise? I don't see how that would allow people to advance quicker, unless you mean they would be less distracted by the opposite sex.
Most Asian countries aren't melting pots. In Japan, you've pretty much got Japanese-Japanese - there aren't a whole lot of Mexican-Japanese, African-Japanese, Indian-Japanese, and so on. Not a whole lot of cultural diversity - everyone's pretty much on the same page. And that leads to less conflict and a shared vision. The percentage of Japanese who complete high school is over 90%, at least in part because there's so much consistent peer pressure to succeed.

I also don't know what you mean by class. Do you mean that in Asia, only the moderately well-off and up get educated? Only the kids with a stable home environment and parents that can care for them get to go to school?
What I mean is that the simple existence of a higher percentage of a country's population in lower economic classes is a predictor of lower educational achievement, as the correlation between economic status and education is extremely high. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), the United States has the highest poverty rate of all the world's 30 advanced economies. I'll let you draw your own conclusion.


 

WiseOldDude

Senior member
Feb 13, 2005
702
0
0
They ain't learning anything in 12 years, so do away with the school system. 12 years of school and they are functional illiterate, can't make change without a cash register program, can't read an analog watch or clock, can fill out even the simplest job application (McDonalds), so why spend billions housing them in schools.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
181
106
Just quit grading on the curve system, go back to a straight grading system where the students have to learn to get a passing grade.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
Originally posted by: hofan41
sadly in my high school in san diego, i took so many AP courses and was challenged so much that college was a breeze at uc irvine. i think it has more to do with motivating kids to achieve more
You must have picked an easy major then, I can't imagine anyone majoring in say......engineering considering it a breeze for all 4 years.
 

Extelleron

Diamond Member
Dec 26, 2005
3,127
0
71
Originally posted by: JACKHAMMER
Originally posted by: piasabird
If you drop Gym and Art and Homec and other useless classes, that do not prepare you for the workforce, then you might be able to save some money. However, if you still have to have teachers to teach all of those classes, then you cant save much.

This article is interesting but it raises some other issues. For instance if you get out of school at 16, then a lot of people at 16 will want to drive a car as a necessity to get to work. Also, people at 16 will be entering the workforce full-time.

Here are some problems I see in the High School Environment:

1. Grades are too dependent on homework assignments. Lots of places, the homework is 50% or your grade. I think this is way too high. We should make High School more like college, putting more stress on projects, term papers, presentations, quizes, Tests. Too much homework can be a bad thing. A weekly quiz is far better. Doing homework is fine, but too much emphasis is put on turning in homework. Many kids do the homework and then dont turn it in, leave it at home or whatever. I think the homework is making some teachers lazy. If a teacher gives homework, then every paper should have to be individually graded by the teacher, not the students, during class time.

2. Do away with Detention. If kids dont behave call their parents to come pick them up immediately, or make them stand in the hall or in the back of the room. If kids can act up too much just call the Cops, or give them probation or suspension and tell them not to come back without their guardian. Teachers are not baby sitters.

3. Teachers have too many days off for training. Cut that out right away and make them do training during the summer. Let them have training on their time. Put the trainng on tape and they can watch it in their spare time.

4. Change the semesters so Fall ends at Christmas and Spring begins after new years. It is stupid to do otherwise. It just makes more sense. Most colleges are run this way. Some colleges even give off a week for thanksgiving, and then close down a week before Christmas. One college I went to set up their schedule so the last week of class was always for finals, and class was used for studying and Finals Prep.

5. Make the 7th and 8th Grade part of High School. Jr high is just stupid.

6. Make some vocational high schools. One for Factories, one for Farming, one for the arts, etc.


This post just wreaks of being written by a 14 year old procrastinator. No homework? Do you realize that a 14 year old has no where near the organizational skills or internal motivation of a college student? Do you understand that by stressing homework, it is their way to make an incentive for the kids practicing. And by grading in class you see what others did wrong, which by seeing where others fail give you a hint on your future problems. Think man.
Japanese students get far less homework... last I checked they're doing far better than we are in the education department.

 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
I find that I learn best when given homework. Doing examples of math problems, for example, helps me learn far better than any stuffy professor lecturing could ever do. Doing homework helps you learn in your own context, in addition to advancing individual problem solving.

Simply swallowing and repeating facts is not learning, it's collecting. There's no creativity there.
 

JACKHAMMER

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,870
0
76
Originally posted by: Extelleron
Originally posted by: JACKHAMMER
Originally posted by: piasabird
If you drop Gym and Art and Homec and other useless classes, that do not prepare you for the workforce, then you might be able to save some money. However, if you still have to have teachers to teach all of those classes, then you cant save much.

This article is interesting but it raises some other issues. For instance if you get out of school at 16, then a lot of people at 16 will want to drive a car as a necessity to get to work. Also, people at 16 will be entering the workforce full-time.

Here are some problems I see in the High School Environment:

1. Grades are too dependent on homework assignments. Lots of places, the homework is 50% or your grade. I think this is way too high. We should make High School more like college, putting more stress on projects, term papers, presentations, quizes, Tests. Too much homework can be a bad thing. A weekly quiz is far better. Doing homework is fine, but too much emphasis is put on turning in homework. Many kids do the homework and then dont turn it in, leave it at home or whatever. I think the homework is making some teachers lazy. If a teacher gives homework, then every paper should have to be individually graded by the teacher, not the students, during class time.

2. Do away with Detention. If kids dont behave call their parents to come pick them up immediately, or make them stand in the hall or in the back of the room. If kids can act up too much just call the Cops, or give them probation or suspension and tell them not to come back without their guardian. Teachers are not baby sitters.

3. Teachers have too many days off for training. Cut that out right away and make them do training during the summer. Let them have training on their time. Put the trainng on tape and they can watch it in their spare time.

4. Change the semesters so Fall ends at Christmas and Spring begins after new years. It is stupid to do otherwise. It just makes more sense. Most colleges are run this way. Some colleges even give off a week for thanksgiving, and then close down a week before Christmas. One college I went to set up their schedule so the last week of class was always for finals, and class was used for studying and Finals Prep.

5. Make the 7th and 8th Grade part of High School. Jr high is just stupid.

6. Make some vocational high schools. One for Factories, one for Farming, one for the arts, etc.


This post just wreaks of being written by a 14 year old procrastinator. No homework? Do you realize that a 14 year old has no where near the organizational skills or internal motivation of a college student? Do you understand that by stressing homework, it is their way to make an incentive for the kids practicing. And by grading in class you see what others did wrong, which by seeing where others fail give you a hint on your future problems. Think man.
Japanese students get far less homework... last I checked they're doing far better than we are in the education department.


By what measure? link please. Do they educate and push everyone and test them as if they were college bound b/c we do. Apples to Oranges buddy.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
4
81
To be honest I do not think I learned anything in highschool that I didnt have to take again in College at only a slightly higher level. If I could have went to college after 10th grade and started taking college courses instead of sill highschool equiv it would have been much better. I am a Microbiology/Pre-med major btw. I think this would also be great for people looking to go into a trade. Basically what votech does except it would drop the half year of high school classes. My brother is a bricklayer and actually a pretty intelligent person. You'd be surprised how much math is involved in construction. He isnt just a dumb construction worker. He didnt do grand in highschool except for his votech classes and the votech math classes.
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: Extelleron
Originally posted by: JACKHAMMER
Originally posted by: piasabird
If you drop Gym and Art and Homec and other useless classes, that do not prepare you for the workforce, then you might be able to save some money. However, if you still have to have teachers to teach all of those classes, then you cant save much.

This article is interesting but it raises some other issues. For instance if you get out of school at 16, then a lot of people at 16 will want to drive a car as a necessity to get to work. Also, people at 16 will be entering the workforce full-time.

Here are some problems I see in the High School Environment:

1. Grades are too dependent on homework assignments. Lots of places, the homework is 50% or your grade. I think this is way too high. We should make High School more like college, putting more stress on projects, term papers, presentations, quizes, Tests. Too much homework can be a bad thing. A weekly quiz is far better. Doing homework is fine, but too much emphasis is put on turning in homework. Many kids do the homework and then dont turn it in, leave it at home or whatever. I think the homework is making some teachers lazy. If a teacher gives homework, then every paper should have to be individually graded by the teacher, not the students, during class time.

2. Do away with Detention. If kids dont behave call their parents to come pick them up immediately, or make them stand in the hall or in the back of the room. If kids can act up too much just call the Cops, or give them probation or suspension and tell them not to come back without their guardian. Teachers are not baby sitters.

3. Teachers have too many days off for training. Cut that out right away and make them do training during the summer. Let them have training on their time. Put the trainng on tape and they can watch it in their spare time.

4. Change the semesters so Fall ends at Christmas and Spring begins after new years. It is stupid to do otherwise. It just makes more sense. Most colleges are run this way. Some colleges even give off a week for thanksgiving, and then close down a week before Christmas. One college I went to set up their schedule so the last week of class was always for finals, and class was used for studying and Finals Prep.

5. Make the 7th and 8th Grade part of High School. Jr high is just stupid.

6. Make some vocational high schools. One for Factories, one for Farming, one for the arts, etc.


This post just wreaks of being written by a 14 year old procrastinator. No homework? Do you realize that a 14 year old has no where near the organizational skills or internal motivation of a college student? Do you understand that by stressing homework, it is their way to make an incentive for the kids practicing. And by grading in class you see what others did wrong, which by seeing where others fail give you a hint on your future problems. Think man.
Japanese students get far less homework... last I checked they're doing far better than we are in the education department.
Apples to oranges.
I got far more homework in Ghana and Nigeria...
Last I checked, I'm doing far better than most Americans in the education department.

Your comparison makes absolutely no sense, just like my comparison I posted.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
I like this idea. Then ages 16-20 should serve a mandatory prison sentence.

 

Alonelymuffin

Junior Member
Dec 28, 2006
16
0
0
Someone mentioned Mr. Gatto's paper a while ago, so here's a link:
http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

Something I've noticed is that many of the problems with schools stemfrom individual differences in children. the idea that a general system can completely solve many, many small, specific problems (read: children) is ludicrous. This system itself is flawed as well. it comprises multiple groups attempting to move it in different directions: for example, the teachers are fighting for creative, helpful school environments in order to cater to each students needs. Counter-productively, the higher-ups are devoted to number results only. Larger class sizes benefit them by law of attrition. The politicians, too, only think of results, but they're so far removed from the action they can't make any accurate decisions. If schools churn out faceless zombies or delinquents, it doesn't matter as long as the churning out happens at a good rate. The children themselves, arguably the most important people in the process, get no say whatsoever; whether or not they should is another matter. I wouldn't trust me to make any kind of decisions about my schooling, even now.

Also, the grade system is flawed. as noted before, all People are not created quite equal. a quick perusal of modern learning philosophy will show that people learn differently, and different things with different levels of competency. what I feel we need is a grade system based dually off of ability and actual knowledge. I can see the shortcomings in this, too, but I feel it is at least a step up from the current situation.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Yes, the one-sized fits all mentality of our education system is one large problem. Things are slightly better with IEPs, classes for developmentally disabled, but where are the vocational schools? Where are the schools preparing those to enter the workforce that aren't going to college?

I don't know about ending school at the 10th grade, but we need to focus more on the basics AND preparing people for their life. While no parent or educator wants to admit it, there are lots of people going to college that could better serve the economy and themselves in a different role. College degrees are becoming devalued, and too many people are passing college with little actual experience or understanding of the material they should know.

Germany has or had a fairly adept system at weeding out those for higher education and those for vocational training. There's nothing wrong with many jobs that don't require a college degree. Many are high paying. It seems as if employers have been boneheaded enough to get caught up in it, and now they want a college degree for every position. It isn't necessary. Higher education should be more in-depth and challenging than it is. We have dumbed it down so that "everyone" can get a shot at a degree.

We have to realize the future of our economy and society depends on workers who have a variety of skills, and that we invest in infrastructure to retrain and educate workers. People make fun of ITT Tech and some vocational schools, but they are actually not enough of them.

Our educational system in grammar and highschool should be building basics and then have alternate paths those last two years for individuals. Life isn't fair. Everyone isn't intelligent or adept enough to get an advanced degree (which is now what a college degree used to be worth). We've got to train those workers to compete in today's globalized economy.

After all, is a philosophy graduate more valuable to a firm that designs bicycles than someone who is mechanically adept and creative but doesn't have a degree? In today's world they sure are -- even if their skill set is not what's needed for the job. We are creating a bunch of round pegs and trying to fit them in square holes. We need a variety of pegs instead of a one-size fits all approach. We need to develop training programs and an educational structure that attempts to train people for a variety of work, yet something that doesn't sacrifice general knowledge and the building blocks that create a well-rounded individual.

Lord knows that it isn't just grammar schools or high schools. It is everything including post-secondary institutions. We shouldn't be outputing college drones, but rather people who can have a significant contribution to our economy and society.

Don't get me started on the institutionalization and bureaucracy that Mr. Gatto mentions. My brother and his wife are teachers as well as my step-brother's wife and my step-sister. Our educational system is a fvcking joke.
 

catnap1972

Platinum Member
Aug 10, 2000
2,607
0
76
Originally posted by: Tom
I like this idea. Then ages 16-20 should serve a mandatory prison sentence.
Nah, just ship em off to Eye-Rack!

That'll separate the men from the useless cannon fodder! ;)
 

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