High School Exit Exams Face Backlash

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

Wether you like it or not mugsywwiii - the American school system teaches and learns in English, so yes one could infer that an American high school diploma does equate to knowing how to speak/read/write in English.

Like I said, there are many schools where the same material is taught in multiple languages.

Do we have multiple language "Exit" testing? IF not, then we should.

CkG

Edit: to clarify my position - I don't really think we should have multiple language exit exams because teaching in multiple languages would lead to segregation, but if the rest of the kids have testing(which I agree with) then so should these "alternate" languages.

 

[mugs]

Do we have multiple language "Exit" testing? IF not, then we should.

CkG

Edit: to clarify my position - I don't really think we should have multiple language exit exams because teaching in multiple languages would lead to segregation, but if the rest of the kids have testing(which I agree with) then so should these "alternate" languages.

The whole topic of educating immigrants is a very difficult one, because there doesn't seem to be any good answers.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: waggy
My wife WAS a teacher. She taught 4th-6th grades. She quit because of a few things one of them was the standardized test they are forced to do. So much depends on the outcome of these test that they spend 2 weeks before the test preparing for it. Such as learning how to ?guess? on the questions and what is covered. The test themselves can take up to two weeks. So that?s 4 weeks gone!

Some of the older teachers have said how they teach has changed over the years because of the test. They have to spend more time teaching what is on the test then stuff they feel the students actually need!

I remember back when I went to school taking the Iowa test and another one (cant remember the name) and we would spend at least 2-3 weeks on them. It seemed like we spent time on the test and not much else.


Needless to say I am against the test. I don?t feel they show what a person knows. I have known students that are really smart but have trouble with the standardized test.

As pointed out before, My mother was a teacher(alot of subjects - keyboarding(elementary), accounting(HS), and other Business Ed. classes). She left the system because she couldn't force accountability on her students. If a student failed or was failing her class, the kid's parent would come in a raise hell. My mother was called "The Bitch" by alot of students because she was one of the few who actually failed kids who didn't pass. But she didn't teach any "core" classes at the high school level - so these kids who failed had actually CHOSEN to take her class. Was she overly tough on students? No - and I remember nights when kids would drop by my house to ask her questions if they really did need help and wanted to learn - she made plenty of time for her students.

I'm sorry your wife felt that she had to "teach the test" but that is where one of the real problems lie. Don't teach the test - let the test determine what the kid has already learned. If the test is overly hard and not in line with what students at that level should have been taught -then by all means - change the test - don't get rid of it. How does one truely know what a kid has retained if they aren't tested at regular intervals? Teachers(bless their idealistic hearts) can and do make mistakes and miss signs of a kid struggling to learn as well as missing signs of "genius".

Standardized testing isn't the problem here - it is the lack of standardized teaching. I switched school systems (North-west Iowa to Middle of Wisconsin) when I was in second grade. Now in 2nd grade in iowa we were learning mathmatics at a much higher level than those in wisconsin, I had to wait until the end of 3rd grade for their system to catch up. But spelling was the opposite - in Iowa we weren't taught the same level of spelling that my classmates in wisconsin were, I had to spend time to catch up with their system. I still to this day have some issues with spelling(like alot of people here do ) and I look back to that move as a possible cause of that. We need a more comprehensive system to brainwa....I mean teach our kids, one that has both student and teacher accountability built in.

Fix the system - don't water it down.

CkG

When school districts base pay raises and how much money the school gets the next year on how well the students do on the test then they are going to teach that. Not to mention a teacher can be fired for low test scores.

But i agree with the standardized teaching. When i was younger my family moved around a lot. i would go to one school and be far behind and catch up. just to move and be real far ahead of that school and have to go over crap i already knew.

 

[Vadatajs]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: tnitsuj
From MSNBC

Not sure how I feel about these. I know these sorts of exams are common in other countries and also much much harder and people still pass so it is doable.

People need to quit complaining. If you did not learn the required material, you dont need a diploma.

The problem with these one-time, life or death, graduate or don't graduate tests is that eventually the schools will start teaching less and less material, and more and more "test taking skills." The kids will be taught how to take the test, and as for information, they'll learn only the bare minimum they need to pass the exam. That's not a good thing no matter which way you look at it.

So how do you think they should end the social promotion that occurs in schools? Without testing - the kids don't have to learn ANYTHING - for example - if they can play sports
Don't you find it absurd that people with high school diplomas can't read and write?

How does one finish highschool with a 3.0GPA and not pass a math test? I now ask, which part is the problem? the test or the "inflated" grades she must have recieved.
CkG

This is probably the only thing I agree with you 100% on.

The trend in education is to make the classes easier, not the students smarter. Look at calculators and computers. For the most part, neither belong in the classroom (calculators especially, computers have their place in labs for occasional visits to type papers, not as a vital part of the overall education process). They undermine the ability to actually teach and learn critical problem solving skills that are vital to succed in the real world. How are you going to learn to come up with valid arguements in a world of cut and paste? It's sickening to me that so many people think of trig functions as buttons.

As far as the permanence of such tests. The failing senior should be given another chance to re-take the class during the summer and re-take the test at the end (ala NY's regents exams).


EDIT: She failed 5 times!!!??? She doesn't deserve a diploma. She needs to accept the fact that she doesn't know the material, and get a tutor or something. It is not the school's or test's fault she keeps failing.

 

[Vadatajs]

Originally posted by: dpm
?I?ve cried so much about this test,? said Collins, who learned yesterday that she had failed the exam for at least the fifth time. ?I?m not a stupid kid. . . . It is just that in my opinion, the stuff on the test doesn?t equate to anything that I?ve learned in school.?

Um, hello? She <STRONG>is</strong> a stupid kid if she's failed a test five times! If it really didn't "equate to anything that [she'd] learned in school" then maybe after the fourth time she might have noticed, and done something about it?

Ding ding ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!! My sentiments exactly.

The responsibility to learn rests with the students, as they are the only ones with any control over the matter.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: waggy
When school districts base pay raises and how much money the school gets the next year on how well the students do on the test then they are going to teach that. Not to mention a teacher can be fired for low test scores.

Then that is where the focus of the fight should go. How to hold teachers accountable yet not lock them into their student's performance per se. Student testing can only reflect on how much they have learned and retained.

The question needs to be addressed by parents, teachers, administrators, professors(so they can better prepare teachers for real teaching) since they all are involved in how students learn.

I haven't yet totally "what if" tested my solutions to the above problem but I will soon. I have 2 childeren who will soon be in the public school system and I want to be as informed and active as possible so they get the best education they could possibly recieve

CkG

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Buahahaha!
-------------------
?It?s a flawed exam, that?s the problem.?
? JILL DOUGLASS
Mother of student
--------------------

Or maybe it's a flawed school system I wish people would quit blaming the tool that shows the competency instead the now obvious lack of teaching competency. Fix the system - don't blame the test.

CkG

sounds like flawed parenting to me.

my mom was a hardass CS teacher for high school. multiple exam forms and the kids still cheated off each other. failure is what they get for not learning the material, but not enough teachers are willing to do that. if you can't read the words on your diploma you should not be receiving one, yet it happens.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

sounds like flawed parenting to me.

Well, that too

CkG

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Carbonyl



The test also had a intergration problem filling a cone with water. Again 8th grade, I wish Ida seen the HS test:Q:Q:Q

I haven't seen the test, so I'm curious if you could dig up the test(or at least the question). I would think most 8th grade students would know the volume formula for a cone, which would probably be what the question is based on, since you'd need to know Calculus to do integration(and I'm pretty sure they weren't teaching every 8th grader Calc in the 50's)

I'm calling bullsh!t on this one. Integration is taught in Calculus which you have to be in the 11th grade minimum to take. 8th grade might go into algebra I doubt if it even has geometry or trig.

Everyone is aware that you only have to score like 40-65 or so to pass these tests. You have to be mentally retarded to fail it once mustless 5 times. The local newspaper printed out some sample questions and they were not that hard. The students need to take accountability for their own stupidity and lack of grey matter rather than blame an easy test.

The high school diploma has become just another moronic piece of paper that means only that you stayed in school for at least 12 years. These people that keep failing, why don't you get a Good Enough Diploma because it's not as if they will ever amount to anything past a fry flipper or if they get really lucky a greeter at Wal-mart.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Vadatajs

Originally posted by: dpm
?I?ve cried so much about this test,? said Collins, who learned yesterday that she had failed the exam for at least the fifth time. ?I?m not a stupid kid. . . . It is just that in my opinion, the stuff on the test doesn?t equate to anything that I?ve learned in school.?

Um, hello? She <STRONG>is</strong> a stupid kid if she's failed a test five times! If it really didn't "equate to anything that [she'd] learned in school" then maybe after the fourth time she might have noticed, and done something about it?

Ding ding ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!! My sentiments exactly.

The responsibility to learn rests with the students, as they are the only ones with any control over the matter.

I want to know what in the hell she has been taking? Has she ever taken a math course. Hell, even with the SAT you don't need to know Calc.

She fails it once...OMG what was that crap on there...I will look into it and find out because I have never seen it before. She finds it and studies up on it

She fails it twice...OMG this test is racist or ethno biased. I will try again.

She fails it a third time...My teachers are so lamers, they did not teach me this crap. The least they could have done was woken me up or made me stop talking in class.

She fails it a fourth time...I'm such a ftard. I must have the IQ and mental capacity of one of those people that ride the short buses

She fails it a fifth time...Got to practice....got to practice..."Would you like fries with that?" "Would you like to downsize that for only 59 cents more?" "Hi, welcome to Collins, my name is McDonald's"...Doh! Mommy, please hold me and make everything ok.

 

[q2261]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: ViRGE

Originally posted by: Carbonyl



The test also had a intergration problem filling a cone with water. Again 8th grade, I wish Ida seen the HS test:Q:Q:Q

I haven't seen the test, so I'm curious if you could dig up the test(or at least the question). I would think most 8th grade students would know the volume formula for a cone, which would probably be what the question is based on, since you'd need to know Calculus to do integration(and I'm pretty sure they weren't teaching every 8th grader Calc in the 50's)

I'm calling bullsh!t on this one. Integration is taught in Calculus which you have to be in the 11th grade minimum to take. 8th grade might go into algebra I doubt if it even has geometry or trig.

Everyone is aware that you only have to score like 40-65 or so to pass these tests. You have to be mentally retarded to fail it once mustless 5 times. The local newspaper printed out some sample questions and they were not that hard. The students need to take accountability for their own stupidity and lack of grey matter rather than blame an easy test.

The high school diploma has become just another moronic piece of paper that means only that you stayed in school for at least 12 years. These people that keep failing, why don't you get a Good Enough Diploma because it's not as if they will ever amount to anything past a fry flipper or if they get really lucky a greeter at Wal-mart.

I absolutely agree with you here. There is NO WAY that a STATE COMPETENCY TEST could have a cone integration problem. (I had one of those on my AP Calc exam LOL). These competency tests are ABSOLUTE JOKES, and IMO, the toughest problem you could have is probably one dealing with the simple distance formula for God's sake. If you cant pass this the first time you take it, for whatever reason, you need some help.

 

[mrCide]

well, i can say for one that southeast florida schools are HORRIBLE. I went to Piper High School in Sunrise, FL and I can honestly say out of everything in that school I had maybe 3 classes that taught me anything, the teachers are so ignorant and uneducated. Over half of them just teach whatever subject they can, coaches teach classes. Students are horrible and have no interest in learning. It's no wonder.

When I was in school we had to take the HSCT (as oppose to the current FCAT) and that thing was a breeze. I was AMAZED by how many people had to retake it or were struggling to pass it after finding out they wouldn't graduate without it. The teachers/school are a HUGE problem down here. The uninterested/unmotivated kids with useless parents are also a huge problem. It's really a damn shame.

 

[jackschmittusa]

I went to public schools in the 50s and 60s. Without sounding like the old walked 10 miles in the snow uphill cliche, I really do believe that graduating from school in those days was much harder than it is today. I've watched my 4 kids in school and I'm watching my grandkids now. When I was in school, you had to pass new tests all of the time (with only 1 shot at it), not just take the same test over and over til you passed it. I went to school with many kids who had been set back in grades, several more than once. The only physical aide we might get to use was a slide rule and you knew it was going to be a bitch of a test if they were going to let you use one. You had to pass finals each year (in addition to all of the countless other tests and quizes all year) in every subject to get a passing grade so as to get credit for the course. There was a minimum number of credits required to graduate as well as minimum numbers for each core subject. I can't remember anybody using the "I just can't take tests well even if I know the material." excuse when I went to school. By the time my kids went to school, they were in the all important self-esteem mode. Can't fail the kid because it will make him doubt his self worth and he'll feel bad. They dumbed down the material to an incredable degree and praised even the most worthless students. When I was in school, there were no 2nd place winners. If you weren't #1 in a class, on a test, or any other endeaver, your name didn't get mentioned. You wanted recognition, you worked harder next time. When my kids were in school, even last place got a gold star. I spent a lot of time augmenting my kids public education. It was during this period that many in the business community in particular were of the opinion that a HS diploma wasn't worth the paper it was written on, and was no longer a useful gauge of minimum knowledge and comprehension ability. Many companies at this time demanded a college degree to be hired. They didn't care what degree it was nor whether any of the course material directly correlated to the required job skill set. It only proved that you had a base set of knowlege and could learn. So, now my grandkids are in school and they use testing to show that a HS diploma has value again. It is a good idea and I'd like to see it get worked out. But the schools today do not teach the kids to think on their own at all. When you ask today's average school kid about how he came to believe an idea or opinion, they can't explain. If you press them, it often comes out that it is because someone else said it was so (argumentum ad vericundum - if I recall correctly). They do not have the skills to gather, assess, and draw conclusions from information. Teaching to the test is a foolish endeaver. I think we need the tests but we need to go back to the old ways a bit too. You paid attention and learned the assignments or you looked like a fool when you were called to stand up and address the class or to illistrate a point or proceedure on the board. In an effort to not hurt kids feelings today they never seem to have to give oral book reports, or diagram a sentence or work out the proof of an axiom on the blackboard. Those who make excuses for their kids do great harm to the kids, whether it be parents or teachers.

Boy was that a ramble!

 

[ElFenix]

eh, diagramming a sentence always seemed worthless to me. they try to force you into strict english grammar and diction and punctuation during jr high and early high school. then they show you faulkner and joyce and tell you that they're the pinnacle of english literature.